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Jesus Was a Liberal

The bottom line is the teachings of Jesus and capitalism absolutely don’t mix. Period. People try to twist them, tweak them and spin them so that they will. But they just don’t. Jesus taught that greed was evil. He also taught the same of being judgmental. You now have greedy judgmental people trying to say the exact opposite. It’s “if this person just wasn’t so lazy.” Where as Jesus would have given to the beggars at the gate, without questioning them as to their “laziness.” And it’s “That life style is a sin and immoral.” Where as Jesus would have said “Let thy with out sin cast the first stone and let my father be thy judge”

I’ve been listening to Air America Radio lately and one of their “hosts” said, the other day, he “wished some of these religious right people were a little less religious based and a little more reality based” Personally I’d be happy if more religious people were just more religious based.
 
Well said Pac... and welcome Jay from the UK!

One of the things that came to the surface for me recently, that I had forgotten about is the absolute ostentatious wealth of the Catholic Church. The schere opulence of the "Apostolic Palace" etc., which I find absolutely counter to what I thought Jesus represented. This was capped off by a report that the Pope had commissioned a $20 million hotel for the Cardinals etc with 110 suites for their comfort as "Princes of the Church". If I were a Catholic who had been shelling over hard earned money to the constantly begging parish priests, I would be very angry at this display of wealth and luxury. I mentioned this to some friends who had no problem with it until I asked them how they felt about churches being tax free.

They pay no real estate taxes for their holding in the US even thought they have billions of dollars worth of prime assets. This means that everyone of us, as property owners has to pay more to supplement them. They are obviously a business. They have employees, facilities, asset management and a product. They are obviously profitable as exemplified by the lifestyle. Why aren't they paying taxes like everyone else? I feel as if we are being forced by government to make a contribution to organized religions... isn't that un-constitutional?... against the law? This could be interpreted as a state "sponsored" religion which is specifically forbidden in the Constitution.
 
jay123 said:
religion is conservative and reactionary either way you look at it. Religion is just control, islam, judaeism (sorry for spelling that wrong), christianity - all of them want to tell you what to do, what to think, who to obey. It's all just bourgeous control. A true liberal wouldn't be as arrogant to think that he knew the best for all the people's of the world - as 13 guys 2000 years ago seemed to think they did...
You should be proud to have such a wonderful ability to encapsulate all of theology that runs from Adam and Eve to the present day into a single sentence.

Of course, as you say, a true liberal wouldn't be that arrogant. However, do you think that a liberal, who is totally ignorant of theology, would?
 
GarzaUK said:
Organized religion is a form of control, however Jesus was not part of organized religion, he was a rebel, who taught differently to the Jewish Priests.
That is true in that He was rejected as the Messiah by the Sanhedrin. He was preaching the Kingdom of Heaven and the Sanhedrin were expecting a Messiah who, following in the steps of David, would defeat the enemies of the Hebrews and establish for them a magnificent kingdom on Earth. They were amazed that His message, which they saw as nothing tangible, was drawing many followers from among the Jews. They determined that this was a threat to them that couldn't stand. The rest is history
I respect the teachings of Christ, however maybe organized religion has corrupted those believes, for example Christainity and probably Islam are the most intolerent religions in the world.
Do not confuse the Church as established by Christ with imitations and imitators. Who knows how many of both have come and gone. The ones that still exist number in the thousands and provide the fodder to feed the opponents of religion. Even within Christ's own Church, evil persons have been present since its founding at the Last Supper, during which Judas Iscariot exposed himself as the first. Why should anyone think that there has not been a long line behind him? Every large group will have enemies within as well as without.

I can't speak for Islam, however, Christ's Church is peerless with respect to tolerance, acceptance, and love for all. Aren't those who accuse the Church of being intolerant merely saying that the Church will not cave in to their demands? Christ set the standard for conduct among His followers. He also set the standard by which those "lost lambs", as He called them, could return to the fold. Those who were truly repentant, were, and still are, accepted back into His good graces with the words, "Go and sin no more." The sins, of course, being infractions of the Ten Commandments.
Some Church leaders spread hate towards homosexuals, other religions (Islam particulary now).
Who are these Church leaders to whom you refer? The Popes, being the "leaders" of the largest Christian Church are often accused by those who have no idea of what they are saying, but who simply repeat what they have heard. The position of the Popes is this. The Eighth Commandment forbids sexual contact between all persons outside of a valid marriage. Absolutely no differentiation exists based upon sexual orientation.
Televangelists who worship the "Almighty Dollar" and suck in people with healing scams.
The "Elmer Gantry" types and wannabees, a veritable host of other "faith healers epitomize the old saw, "A fool and his money are soon parted."
I heard a preacher say "Thank you Lord for giving us a leader, with the courage to fight against the muslim henchman of Satan." I've heard, "Islam and Christainity can not co-exist, one must destroy the other, and Christ will prevail."
Since you put so much stock in that preacher, perhaps you should ask about his success rate for fixing problems which involve hearing and comprehension problems.
Very different from the teachings of peace, love and tolerance of Christ.
Whenever someone begins tossing around things said by "Preachers", I ask him to delve into the religious organization and determine the depth of its roots. Is it a split, a branch, an offshoot? If so, from what? And why.

You'd be surprised how many churches were started by a guy who signed up at this website, or one of the many, many of that ilk which have flourished over the years.

http://www.ulc.org/
 
Pacridge said:
The bottom line is the teachings of Jesus and capitalism absolutely don’t mix. Period. People try to twist them, tweak them and spin them so that they will. But they just don’t. Jesus taught that greed was evil. He also taught the same of being judgmental. You now have greedy judgmental people trying to say the exact opposite. It’s “if this person just wasn’t so lazy.” Where as Jesus would have given to the beggars at the gate, without questioning them as to their “laziness.” And it’s “That life style is a sin and immoral.” Where as Jesus would have said “Let thy with out sin cast the first stone and let my father be thy judge”

I’ve been listening to Air America Radio lately and one of their “hosts” said, the other day, he “wished some of these religious right people were a little less religious based and a little more reality based” Personally I’d be happy if more religious people were just more religious based.
You tend to tar everyone with the same brush.
 
shuamort said:
Fantasea said:
Why? A large portion of poor rural folk, especially in the south, are already voting Republican.
Which belies the fact that these folks are labeled as poorly educated.
 
Fantasea said:
shuamort said:
Which belies the fact that these folks are labeled as poorly educated.
They are poorly educated for the most part. Poor does not turn out well educated folk. That's not to say they're not intelligent, education doesn't equal intelligence.
 
shuamort said:
Fantasea said:
They are poorly educated for the most part. Poor does not turn out well educated folk. That's not to say they're not intelligent, education doesn't equal intelligence.
What could be worse than Arkansas? A fatherless son of an destitute alcoholic mother rose to serve two terms in the White House.
 
Fantasea said:
What could be worse than Arkansas? A fatherless son of an destitute alcoholic mother rose to serve two terms in the White House.
Luckily there have always been exceptions to the rule. Even more luckily, I didn't create a blanket statement by saying "all" instead of "most" as I said.
 
pwo said:
I don't think Jesus ever cared to much about politics, he had other things to worry about.

I wholeheartedly agree "P". Jesus cared much more about "loving thy neighbor" and "loving God" than who would get elected in the upcoming popular vote. Now I know this is an exaggeration, I am sure that Jesus had some opinion on ethics and how society should be run (a major concern in politics), but how can we know exactly how he felt. There are two reasons why we probably will never be able to pin down exactly where Jesus fits on the political spectrum:

First, there have been so many translations of the Bible into different languages, and then those translations have been translated. My grandfather has a Bible that compares four different English translations of the Bible, each has its own flavor and different wordings. You can get a very different idea of things that Jesus says from different translations.

Second, there is no longer a united Christian church, and there hasn't been for nearly 400 years. Even before the Reformation, people within the Church disagreed about how things should be run. Take the off-shoot of Eastern Orthodox Christianity for example, which occurred very early on in the Church's history. Now there are scores of different Christian denominations, and even within these denominations there are different opinions and interpretations of faith. I know a Lutheran pastor who openly admits to marrying gay couples (I used to date her daughter, and we talked about politics all the time...). My uncle is also a Lutheran pastor and he would never marry a gay couple in any church. One of my Catholic friends believes abortion should be up to a woman and her doctor. Another of my Catholic friends believes abortion is murder.

THERE IS NO UNITY IN FAITH BECAUSE FAITH IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN. Each person has their own faith.

The main point is, then, that we can never know if Jesus was a liberal or a conservative, because everybody will interpret His words differently according to their own moral character. Jesus may be a liberal to you argexpat, but to me he is a conservative.

Yet, in my opinion Religion is irrelevant to politics. I believe it was Kierkegaard who said that faith is separate both from reason and from sensory perception. It is an entirely different mode of human functioning. Faith is certainly important, but it shouldn't be so important to politics.
 
AHSPolitician said:
I wholeheartedly agree "P". Jesus cared much more about "loving thy neighbor" and "loving God" than who would get elected in the upcoming popular vote. Now I know this is an exaggeration, I am sure that Jesus had some opinion on ethics and how society should be run (a major concern in politics), but how can we know exactly how he felt. There are two reasons why we probably will never be able to pin down exactly where Jesus fits on the political spectrum:
I think the answer is quite obvious. Start with "Render to Caesar the things which are Caesar's and to God the things which are God's." Follow that with obedience to the Ten Commandments and the Second Great Commandment of the Church, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." The intent is clear. Ethics and society are fully covered.
First, there have been so many translations of the Bible into different languages, and then those translations have been translated. My grandfather has a Bible that compares four different English translations of the Bible, each has its own flavor and different wordings. You can get a very different idea of things that Jesus says from different translations.
Theology is best left to theologians.
Second, there is no longer a united Christian church, and there hasn't been for nearly 400 years. Even before the Reformation, people within the Church disagreed about how things should be run. Take the off-shoot of Eastern Orthodox Christianity for example, which occurred very early on in the Church's history. Now there are scores of different Christian denominations, and even within these denominations there are different opinions and interpretations of faith. I know a Lutheran pastor who openly admits to marrying gay couples (I used to date her daughter, and we talked about politics all the time...). My uncle is also a Lutheran pastor and he would never marry a gay couple in any church. One of my Catholic friends believes abortion should be up to a woman and her doctor. Another of my Catholic friends believes abortion is murder.
Can persons who practice their religion on sort of a buffet basis, take this because I like it, ignore that because I don't like it, try something new, etc. be said to be devout? I don't think so.
THERE IS NO UNITY IN FAITH BECAUSE FAITH IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN. Each person has their own faith.
This is the kind of atttitude that has resulted in thousands upon thousands of religions that have the word "Christian" in their names.
The main point is, then, that we can never know if Jesus was a liberal or a conservative, because everybody will interpret His words differently according to their own moral character. Jesus may be a liberal to you argexpat, but to me he is a conservative.
What does it matter?
Yet, in my opinion Religion is irrelevant to politics. I believe it was Kierkegaard who said that faith is separate both from reason and from sensory perception. It is an entirely different mode of human functioning. Faith is certainly important, but it shouldn't be so important to politics.
Now that he's dead, too bad he can't tell us what he's learned.
 
I don't mean to act like a question machine, but I believe it was Socrates who used questions to see if his fellow discussants had any merit to their logic.

First of all, do you consider yourself "devout", if a "buffet" style is not good enough? If so, how do you define "devout"? Is it following all the commands in a book? Is it doing what you feel inside is right?

The point is that the word "devout" means many things to many different people, including Jesus himself. Think of the Beattitudes, many of which were paradoxical and contrary to logic, but really made sense in the end. Maybe "devout" needs to be thought about more carefully too.

Second, you seemed to miss the point of my post. You claim that "the intent is clear". Jesus tells us if we were to only remember two things that we should remember to love our neighbors as ourselves and to love our God with all our heart. This is not a clear statement at all, in fact it is very ambiguous. The Ten Commandments, in my opinion, do not cover it all, especially in the realm of politics.

For example is it "loving thy neighbor" for legislators to focus on pork-barrel legislation to get reelected? We find two things in conflict here. Is the "neighbor" the legislator's constituents, whom he is giving direct benefit to, or is the "neighbor" the legislator's countrymen, whom he is spending uneccessary amounts of their taxes to help his reelection chances. Which one does he need to "love" more?

Maybe my logic is faulty, but it seems to me that the Ten Commandments and the Great Commandment can be interpreted by different people in different ways because they are so ambiguous. If God wanted us to know exactly what is moral all the time why didn't He send down a guy who gave us a bunch of rules? I feel like the spirit that the Great Commandment conves is what is important, and that very spirit cannot be the same for everyone.
 
Parcridge,
How dare you try to push your religious beliefs on me. I'm glad that you aren't a politician in washington d.c. You are trying to argue that we should become a socialist nation because that is what Jesus wants us to. Where's the wall between church and state. ;)

Jesus believed that charity was basically "the fruit of your labor". I wish I had the exact quote, but I'm not going to look through the bible for it. People should give to poor, but we can't force them to because we think it is right.

P.S. Socialism is the fairist system? :bs It can't get any fairer than capitolism. The people who work hardest get paid the most. NOT equal pay for micky d workers and doctors. I mean COME ON!
 
pwo said:
P.S. Socialism is the fairist system? :bs It can't get any fairer than capitolism. The people who work hardest get paid the most. NOT equal pay for micky d workers and doctors. I mean COME ON!

Maybe that's because you don't know anything else but capitalism.

In Socialism, the average worker does not get paid the same as a doctor. Your mistaken.
 
Oh please explain.

Either way I think a doctor who goes to medical school and workers hard, gets paid right. And a high school drop out who now flips hamburgers, gets paid right.

It's just.
 
AHSPolitician said:
I don't mean to act like a question machine, but I believe it was Socrates who used questions to see if his fellow discussants had any merit to their logic.
Well considered questions are always in order.
First of all, do you consider yourself "devout", if a "buffet" style is not good enough? If so, how do you define "devout"? Is it following all the commands in a book? Is it doing what you feel inside is right?
This dictionary definition of the word is a good fit:

Main Entry: de·vout
Pronunciation: di-'vaut
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English devot, from Old French, from Late Latin devotus, from Latin, past participle of devovEre
Date: 13th century
1 : devoted to religion or to religious duties or exercises

The point is that the word "devout" means many things to many different people, including Jesus himself. Think of the Beattitudes, many of which were paradoxical and contrary to logic, but really made sense in the end. Maybe "devout" needs to be thought about more carefully too.
I think the Beatitudes are profound yet sufficiently simple as to be clearly understood quite easily. With respect to words, when one doesn't wish to accept the popular meaning, one often adjusts the meaning to suit one's needs and then makes an effort to persuade others to agree. Some do, some don't.
Second, you seemed to miss the point of my post. You claim that "the intent is clear". Jesus tells us if we were to only remember two things that we should remember to love our neighbors as ourselves and to love our God with all our heart. This is not a clear statement at all, in fact it is very ambiguous.
I'm sorry to have missed your point. Perhaps it was over my head. However, I can't imagine how a command could be expressed with greater clarity. The word "love" encompasses it's synonyms, "cherish" and "charity". Taken together, the dictionary definitions involved are:

To hold dear; to keep or cultivate with care and affection; benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity; generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering

If there is ambiguity lurking in there, it, too, has gone over my head. On the other hand, universal obedience to this command would result in the Utopia long sought but never achieved. Do you disagree?
The Ten Commandments, in my opinion, do not cover it all, especially in the realm of politics.
Among others, obedience to the Ten Commandments requires:

Assistance for the weak and the poor,
Defense of the nation,
Faithfulness to one's oath,
Honesty,
Truthfulness,

Somehow, I wish these attributes could be reduced to a serum with which politicians could be innoculated.
For example is it "loving thy neighbor" for legislators to focus on pork-barrel legislation to get reelected? We find two things in conflict here. Is the "neighbor" the legislator's constituents, whom he is giving direct benefit to, or is the "neighbor" the legislator's countrymen, whom he is spending uneccessary amounts of their taxes to help his reelection chances. Which one does he need to "love" more?
Strictly adhering to his sworn oath to protect and defend the Constitution, the primary duty of members of Congress is to the nation as a whole. After the needs of the nation have been met, then the legitimate needs of the individual constituencies may be met. It is sad, though, that many abuse their sacred trust. In so doing, they are disobeying a Commandment or two.
Maybe my logic is faulty, but it seems to me that the Ten Commandments and the Great Commandment can be interpreted by different people in different ways because they are so ambiguous. If God wanted us to know exactly what is moral all the time why didn't He send down a guy who gave us a bunch of rules? I feel like the spirit that the Great Commandment conves is what is important, and that very spirit cannot be the same for everyone.
The explanation for your detailed question is quite simple. The encapsulated version goes like this.

From Adam and Eve, all of the generations have been named in the Old Testament together with the prophets whose mission was to preach the word of God as He revealed it to them. The teachings promised that a Messiah would come.

Jesus came and was accepted as the Messiah by some but rejected by the Sanhedrin because they were expecting to become powerful in a temporal kingdom and were not interested in hearing about the Kingdom of Heaven. They arranged to get rid of Him.

Before His crucifixion, He established His Church when he said to the Apostle, Simon, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock (Peter) I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." With these words, the Church was not only established, but He said that the Church would last for all time.
This also authorized a line of successors because the Church was destined to last beyond the death pf Peter.

At the same time. Christ said to Peter, Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven. These are the words which conferred infallibility, in matters of faith or morals, upon Peter and his successors.

The final words to Peter were, "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. As Christ had, on a number of occasions forgiven the sins of penitent persons who had asked for forgiveness, He extended this power to Peter.

So there we have the foundation and, as we know, the line of successors, over two millennia, now numbers 265. As Christ was the teacher, so have been His successors. In their role as infallible theological teachers and interpreters of scripture, it is the popes, who through their bishops and priests pass the teachings of Christ to the faithful.

So, you see, Roman Catholics are comfortable in the knowledge that what you suggest has already been taken care of. Practical Catholics understand that the Church is not a democratic organization where the members may, by a majority vote, decide to add, subtract, or modify theology to suit some style, fad, or passing fancy. They see it more as a voluntary membership that requires obedience to its "rules". Those who do not wish to obey all of the rules are not required to remain.

Of course, there are those who call themselves Catholics but who, in truth, do not obey the rules. While they do not wish to be labeled as hypocrites, I can't think of a better description.

Others, over the years have found it impossible for them to obey the rules and have gone off and organized a church of their own. Henry VIII, the most well known of these turned a marital spat into a whole new church and dealt harshly with any of his subjects who disagreed.

Thousands of others who disagreed with the Vatican went their own way and, even they, had disagreements among themselves and forks, branches, splits occurred so that by now there are many thousands of religions that include the word "Christian" in their names.

Plus, there are countless individuals who have no formal religious affiliation but read scripture. Put any ten of them in the same room and you'll get twenty interpretations of a passage.

Whenever I hear someone compare the Catholic Church, to another Christian religion, I suggest to that person that it would be a good idea to trace that religion back to its roots to see from whence it came.

What do you think?
 
Fantasea said:
anomaly said:
The Republicans wish all the poor were not poor so that they could contribute to the general welfare rather than being on it. That would also erase a major constituency of the Democratic Party, wouldn't it?You fail to note that the term 'rich' is relative. One need not be the Chairman of the Board to be 'rich'. On the other hand, following your advice will guarantee that one will live happpily forever after in poverty. The socialist-lib-dems will ensure that this will never happen. The right simply feels that the poor should be 'eliminated' by lifting them out of poverty. To this end, means and opportunity abound. Those who partake succeed. Those who refuse remain mired in misery. They are truly the poster children of the socialist-lib-dems.Do not confuse Jesus with people who ignore his word. There are good and bad in every walk of life.The principle of 'tithing' exists among many believers, doesn't it?I have noticed that by and large, the folks most interested in redistribution of wealth have no wealth to redistribute. Perhaps if they made the effort to acquire some, and did so, I wonder how much of it they would be willing to redistribute?Having long since gone to his reward, He now knows whether he was right. Your calculation of "everyone" is just about as half-baked as most of the socialist blather with which you are so well endowed. Evidently, you haven't come across the right people.
This may be the most ignorant response I've ever read from you, yet is so laughable, so idiotic, that I must respond (hell, it'll give me a good laugh).

First, you say Republicans wish not that the poor were treated better, but wish the poor were in fact not poor. Are you completely ignorant of competition? Competition in the job market absolutely ensures that not only will some people have to be poor, but also that a minority will be rich. You completely fail to account for the beloved principle of competition every time your start typing this cute little response of your ("I just want no one to be poor"). If you knew anything, you'd know that having 'no one be poor' isn't possible.

Then you say that if people follow my advice, they will be poor. Fighting for social justice means everyone will be poor. Are you serious, or was that a pathetic attempt at a joke. Honestly, I know you're smarter than this. Start picking good argumnets for capitalism please. And rich is relative, as I before have pointed out. 'Rich' is relative to the richest people. Following this, we see that the poor are getting poorer, the rich richer.

Your next bit of idiocy again describes capitalism without accounting for competition. You have got to face it Fant, everyone CANNOT be rich, I'm sorry. Under capitalism, the majority will be poor (in the US, where regulations exist, the majority is well off, note that when I say 'majority' I mean internationally, not nationally), always.

When you say that when people become rich, they tend to not favor redistributive policy, you are right. Capitalism preaches greed, self-interest, and to hell with everyone else. Of course the rich will be against redistribution. Once again, we see that the system is at fault, not the people. But again, I cannot belive how foolish you have become. Get it through your head that not everyone, not even the majority can be rich, and then accept it. Please, please pick a new argument for the system you so love, because 'everyone benefits from it' is not an argument that stands up for capitalism.

You will notice that I skip the religious talk, because I myself am not too educated in any theology. But I will say that I can't believe you think that people can follow the word of Jesus exactly, without faltering. It simply isn't reasonable, nor possible. Even the righteous, infallible, omniscient Fantasea has lied continually (perhaps you know no better) in these little discussions.
 
anomaly said:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
The Republicans wish all the poor were not poor so that they could contribute to the general welfare rather than being on it. That would also erase a major constituency of the Democratic Party, wouldn't it?You fail to note that the term 'rich' is relative. One need not be the Chairman of the Board to be 'rich'. On the other hand, following your advice will guarantee that one will live happpily forever after in poverty. The socialist-lib-dems will ensure that this will never happen. The right simply feels that the poor should be 'eliminated' by lifting them out of poverty. To this end, means and opportunity abound. Those who partake succeed. Those who refuse remain mired in misery. They are truly the poster children of the socialist-lib-dems.Do not confuse Jesus with people who ignore his word. There are good and bad in every walk of life.The principle of 'tithing' exists among many believers, doesn't it?I have noticed that by and large, the folks most interested in redistribution of wealth have no wealth to redistribute. Perhaps if they made the effort to acquire some, and did so, I wonder how much of it they would be willing to redistribute?Having long since gone to his reward, He now knows whether he was right. Your calculation of "everyone" is just about as half-baked as most of the socialist blather with which you are so well endowed. Evidently, you haven't come across the right people.

This may be the most ignorant response I've ever read from you, yet is so laughable, so idiotic, that I must respond (hell, it'll give me a good laugh).
This is getting to be your standard opening.
First, you say Republicans wish not that the poor were treated better, but wish the poor were in fact not poor. Are you completely ignorant of competition? Competition in the job market absolutely ensures that not only will some people have to be poor, but also that a minority will be rich. You completely fail to account for the beloved principle of competition every time your start typing this cute little response of your ("I just want no one to be poor"). If you knew anything, you'd know that having 'no one be poor' isn't possible.
One of these days you will learn about the word "relative" as it may be correctly applied to various conditions. You make it abundantly clear that this day has not yet arrived. However, perhaps I can help remedy this deficiency.

Income earning potential is closely related to one's knowledge, and skill levels. To the extent that one person has greater knowledge and skills, that person, relative to others with lesser knowledge and skills, will earn more and rise farther up the economic ladder. If this is not so, then tell me who it is that we find near the bottom? Therefore income potential is relative to knowledge and skill levels.
Then you say that if people follow my advice, they will be poor. Fighting for social justice means everyone will be poor. Are you serious, or was that a pathetic attempt at a joke. Honestly, I know you're smarter than this. Start picking good argumnets for capitalism please.
That is correct. You offer no encouragement. You simply bemoan the fact that there are inequities and look to the government to even out things. I say, concentrate on improving the education of those who are impoverished together with their children so that they be able to do better for themselves.
And rich is relative, as I before have pointed out. 'Rich' is relative to the richest people. Following this, we see that the poor are getting poorer, the rich richer.
Even John F. Kennedy observed that, "A rising tide lifts all ships." But, to receive any benefit, one must be 'in the water', so to speak.
Your next bit of idiocy again describes capitalism without accounting for competition. You have got to face it Fant, everyone CANNOT be rich, I'm sorry. Under capitalism, the majority will be poor (in the US, where regulations exist, the majority is well off, note that when I say 'majority' I mean internationally, not nationally), always.
Everyone doesn't have to be rich. Well-to-do, well off, prosperous, will do. In this great land of plenty, the only able-bodied persons who are poor are those who, for whatever reason, don't take advantage of the opportunities for success. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
When you say that when people become rich, they tend to not favor redistributive policy, you are right. Capitalism preaches greed, self-interest, and to hell with everyone else. Of course the rich will be against redistribution.
If you constantly feed people, they eventually forget how to feed themselves. Wise men understand that the best way to help people is to help them help themselves.
Once again, we see that the system is at fault, not the people. But again, I cannot belive how foolish you have become. Get it through your head that not everyone, not even the majority can be rich, and then accept it. Please, please pick a new argument for the system you so love, because 'everyone benefits from it' is not an argument that stands up for capitalism.
When insults pepper one's responses, it becomes apparent to all readers that the argument is bereft of fact. I don't believe that I noticed a single fact lurking among your many words.
You will notice that I skip the religious talk, because I myself am not too educated in any theology. But I will say that I can't believe you think that people can follow the word of Jesus exactly, without faltering. It simply isn't reasonable, nor possible. Even the righteous, infallible, omniscient Fantasea has lied continually (perhaps you know no better) in these little discussions.
I think you are reaching the breaking point.
 
Fantasea said:
In this great land of plenty, the only able-bodied persons who are poor are those who, for whatever reason, don't take advantage of the opportunities for success.

Or those who never received those "opportunities for success," as you say. Those who grew up in poverty and were never able to make it out due to lack of sufficient education to succeed in today's increasingly complicated world. Those whose responsibilities toward another person -- a sick child, a mentally ill sibling, an elderly parent -- were too great to allow them to work a full-time job at the income level required to rise from their state. Those who are paid minimum wage or less, what has become far from a living wage in this day and age but which our government insists is good enough for "those people." Those who were laid off from their jobs or whose healthcare or other benefits were cut or drastically reduced. Those who are held back from advancement because of their race, gender, age, disability, sexuality, or any other discriminatory reason. Those who are lost and hopeless because they believe that society has given up on them.

I know it's a part of the American dream that anyone can be anything they want, but the reality is that for many people in the US, this dream is an unattainable one for reasons beyond their control. Please consider that behind all statistics are people who live, breathe and suffer just like the rest of us; it is not our duty to judge or criticize, but to help our neighbors in need. Christ taught the very same principles.

SE
 
SpheryEyne said:
First, let me extend a "Welcome aboard".
Or those who never received those "opportunities for success," as you say. Those who grew up in poverty and were never able to make it out due to lack of sufficient education to succeed in today's increasingly complicated world.
Forgive me if I seem to lack patience; I've had this kind of sympathetic moaning tossed at me many times before.

In a country that spends an average of ten thousand dollars a year on K-12 education, there is nobody who "never received those opportunities for success". Do the math and you'll find that amounts to one hundred thirty thousand dollars to put one child through school from kindergarten to a high school diploma. The problem is that in many, many instances, the opportunity to become educated is ignored or wasted.

Immigrants, who arrive in this country unable to speak a word of English, regularly outshine native borns. In fact, one of them is presently a member of the President's Cabinet. The fatherless son of a penniless alcholic mother made it all the way from Arkansas to two terms in the White House. Warren Buffet, the second richest man in the world, started out with an investment of a hundred dollars. Tens of millions of others who started on the bottom rungs of the economic ladder parlayed their educational opportunities into
very comfortable circumstances.
Those whose responsibilities toward another person -- a sick child, a mentally ill sibling, an elderly parent -- were too great to allow them to work a full-time job at the income level required to rise from their state.
Yes, there are these cases in which unselfish people accepted responsibilities at great personal cost. However these are in the minority and the responsibilities usually do not last for a lifetime. There comes a time to sieze the opportunity to 'upgrade' one's pedigree, as it were.
Those who are paid minimum wage or less, what has become far from a living wage in this day and age but which our government insists is good enough for "those people."
When asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, did you ever hear a first grader say, "I want to be a minimum wage worker?" The vast majority of minimum wage workers are kids working after school and school and drop-outs who are now adults. Is there a connection?
Those who were laid off from their jobs
Are there no other jobs locally? Or, are they unwilling to re-locate to wherever jobs are more plentiful? Or are they unwilling to take advantage of government retraining grants and programs, or community college courses?
or whose healthcare or other benefits were cut or drastically reduced.
Medical treatment is never withheld from those who cannot afford it. That's what the signs in every hospital say.
Those who are held back from advancement because of their race, gender, age, disability, sexuality, or any other discriminatory reason.
Smoke screen thrown up by those who can't compete. Discrimination on those bases is against the law. Call 1-800-LAWYERS. They'll be glad to sue your employer on your behalf.
Those who are lost and hopeless because they believe that society has given up on them.
As John F. Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. What you describe often has a basis in sloth.
I know it's a part of the American dream that anyone can be anything they want, but the reality is that for many people in the US, this dream is an unattainable one for reasons beyond their control.
So long as one is free and healthy, any restrictions of that nature are either imagined or self-inflicted. Prosperity is a result of effort.
Please consider that behind all statistics are people who live, breathe and suffer just like the rest of us; it is not our duty to judge or criticize, but to help our neighbors in need.
Is there a better way to help neighbors in need than to encourage them and teach them to be self-sufficient? Isn't it better to light a candle rather than curse the darkness?
Christ taught the very same principles.
Christ preached the principles of love. The dictionary definitions of love and its synonyms cherish and charity are strung out below:

brotherly concern for others; to keep or cultivate with care and affection; generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering

You may wish to consider the seventh of the Seven Capital Sins; Pride, Covetousness (Avarice), Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy and Sloth, and remember the first three Spiritual Works of Mercy; To instruct the ignorant;To counsel the doubtful; To admonish sinners.

To me this says that we are expected to help get people back on their feet.
 
Jesus was not part of any group. A dem asked me what party I thought jesus was in I said he wasn't in any party. There are religious and political flaws in each party and group. Liberals stand on abortion and gay-marriage which are not what Jesus would support and don't you dare say he would. The cons do show hate against homosexuals and I can't stand that. You people are right about how Jesus would not be a conservative because of the hate against the gays. Jesus would love them and care for them. ( Sorry Naughty Nurse ) The sin in being gay is acting opon it, not the marriage part. Jesus wouldn't vote! He'd probably run for office as a half and half. WHY CAN'T THERE BE A PERFECT PARTY?
 
satinloveslibs said:
Liberals stand on abortion and gay-marriage which are not what Jesus would support and don't you dare say he would.

Tell me in the bible where Jesus mentioned anything about homosexuality? I always thought Christainity was about the teachings of Christ, therefore making all the bible except the Gospels written my man and subject to error irrevalent. Although the gospels I suppose were written decades after Jesus died (none of the gospels ever met Christ.) I don't know if Jesus mentioned abortion tho, but satin most liberals don't support abortion, they support the woman to HAVE the choice to decide.


satinloveslibs said:
WHY CAN'T THERE BE A PERFECT PARTY?

Yet you signature says GOP - God's official party. God is supposed to be infallible and perfect. Why is an imperfect party God's offical party? I apoligise if I'm needlessly confused. :doh
 
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Fantasea said:
Somehow, I wish these attributes [of love] could be reduced to a serum with which politicians could be innoculated.

Giggle... Agreed. If politicians were to be true to what they believe, both based on reason, but also on love for the nation (in a general sense), then our system would probably work better for everyone. Christianity is a pertty good basis for morality, and I personally try to closely adhere to its doctrines as much as I feel comfortable (yes, I am a "buffet" Christian, but so are a majority of us).

For example, I frown on adultery and cheating on ones spouse, but I don't stone people for it, and don't plan on it in the future. I also don't believe Satan and his evil spirits are always tempting us to do wrong, that God has given us free will over our lives and our choices can be good or bad, but maybe that means that Satan's tempting me to say that right now...

Here's the thing. Machiavelli probably summarized real-life politics best. In The Princehe describes how politicians, rulers, monarchs, etc. do not always follow morality, and shouldn't if it is neccessary to bettering the state. Morality is not always the best medicine because not all humans are moral. A Utopian state is IMPOSSIBLE. So we do the best we can.

Fantesea said:
Of course, there are those who call themselves Catholics but who, in truth, do not obey the rules. While they do not wish to be labeled as hypocrites,I can't think of a better description.

Do you suggest that non-Catholic Christians, or even evangelical (for lack of a better word) Catholics, are not legitimate lovers of Christ? I might remind you that Christ's message was uplifting and reached out to the whole world and that "anyone who believed in Him would not perish but have eternal life". Do you believe that only Catholics will make it to heaven?
 
Fantasea said:
Fant said:
This is getting to be your standard opening.
I try my best. They really are quite funny.
Fant said:
One of these days you will learn about the word "relative" as it may be correctly applied to various conditions. You make it abundantly clear that this day has not yet arrived. However, perhaps I can help remedy this deficiency. Income earning potential is closely related to one's knowledge, and skill levels. To the extent that one person has greater knowledge and skills, that person, relative to others with lesser knowledge and skills, will earn more and rise farther up the economic ladder. If this is not so, then tell me who it is that we find near the bottom? Therefore income potential is relative to knowledge and skill levels.
Tell me, have you ever, in your life, taken a sociology class? Are you even familiar with the field? Well, apparently not. You always seem to leave something out, and here you do so again. You forget about life chances. That is, people born rich are more likely to succeed than people born poor. And I really don't think you yet grasp what competition is, especially as it relates to the job market.
Fant said:
That is correct. You offer no encouragement. You simply bemoan the fact that there are inequities and look to the government to even out things. I say, concentrate on improving the education of those who are impoverished together with their children so that they be able to do better for themselves.
And you plan to do this with a wondrous private education system? You do realize that private education will inevitably favor the rich, thus making the problem you claim to wish to solve even worse. Again you display a fine knowledge of Keynesian economics. You've just regurgatated some great free-market dogma there. Well done.

Fant said:
Even John F. Kennedy observed that, "A rising tide lifts all ships." But, to receive any benefit, one must be 'in the water', so to speak.Everyone doesn't have to be rich. Well-to-do, well off, prosperous, will do. In this great land of plenty, the only able-bodied persons who are poor are those who, for whatever reason, don't take advantage of the opportunities for success. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I think you've overplayed the opportunity in the USA. As I seem to have to continually pound into your head, not everyone can be rich. We need workers, and they are the majority, always. I say we should respect the workers, and give them greater rights, while you wish to strip them of the little rights they have. Perhaps soon you will finally understand that great concept of competition.
Fant said:
If you constantly feed people, they eventually forget how to feed themselves. Wise men understand that the best way to help people is to help them help themselves. When insults pepper one's responses, it becomes apparent to all readers that the argument is bereft of fact. I don't believe that I noticed a single fact lurking among your many words. I think you are reaching the breaking point.
The best way to help people is to help them help themselves-so tell me, how is taking away money from workers going to help them? Again, you must realize that job competition ensures that not everyone, and in fact only the minority, will succeed. Government is there to help this majority from the profit hungry sector of business. f government is taken away, what do you think will happen? Riches for everyone? Of course not, and the very thought is idiotic! Less government has, historically, meant riches for the few. In the US where government still has some (but quickly fading) strength, we see better lives for the majority of people. In truly laissez faire countries, suffering is great, as is poverty. And yet you're here arguing for that laissez-faire style society.

Speaking of facts, where are yours? I don't believe I've read a single one. Vague references to 'ladders', some distorted views of poverty and distribution of wealth (people choose to be in poverty!), and complete faith in the goodness of capitalism. I'd say you're lacking just a bit. To close, I feel I must extend a challenge for another debate on capitalism-pros and cons. If you so choose, make a post, and we can restart the debate.
 
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