January 6th explained

soap box · Apr 17, 2022

I have no proof of the following claim, but I am writing this to record a point in time. I have wondered since January of 2020, how did the riot happen? It finally occurred to me that there is a plausible and probable rationale.

So I repeat, and emphasize, the proof of this may come in the Select Committee report, and I’m placing a bet that the following is true. If it is true, and if substantial evidence is released, I will dig this up and post it elsewhere. For now, I understand, it’s just a theory.

The 4-more-years gang. These are the 4 principal players.

Guiliani
Stone
Flynn
Bannon

Guiliani is the link between the WH and the riot. His discussions with trump led to his understanding that trump could not be reelected. On January 4th, 2020, all four men understood that trump had no real path to remain in office. The Democrats would vote down any objection to an EC slate, and Mike Pence refused to declare state slates invalid.

They realized the dead-end that would make Biden president. They realized there was no way to stop Biden’s win.

They believed they were engaged in a mortal struggle for the soul of the nation. No action would be unjustified if trump remained president.

What were they doing all day on January 5th, 2020? They were burning up their phones in communication with each other and with U.S. Representatives.

They reasoned that force was needed. It made sense to them that no lie was too great, and no action was too corrupt if it would make trump president again. They felt that force was their only choice.

Stone was connected to the Proud Boys. Ray Epps was connected to Flynn. They recognized the difference between a shouting a raving crowed on the outside, and taking control of affairs in the Capitol interior.

That made sense to get the rioters inside the building. They reasoned this would delay the EC and allow more time for states to change their slates ( a vain hope without proof of fraud) or worse, take over the government, be supported by the U.S. Army and martial law until the Democrats surrendered. If you read about the intentions and plans of the Oath Keepers, their scenario is even crazier. But crazy doesn’t matter to the 4-more-years gang. Anything that made trump president was justified.

They wanted the riot to happen because they saw no other possible way to keep trump in the White House. They had run out of legal options

If their reasoning and rationale don’t make sense to you, don’t forget we are talking about 4 men who engaged in every Q-nut conspiracy they ever read.

In their minds, they were heroes that would save the republic by stopping the constitutional process that would allow Biden to gain the office of the Presidency.

And that is the link between the riot and the White House and the Capitol riot, mainly and principally, Guiliani working in conjunction with trump himself.

Queen Margo · Apr 17, 2022

Yup, your conspiracy theory, we all dream them up now and then.

HIP56948 · Apr 17, 2022

Your thoughts appear to have legs. People like those above usually have ideas like: "They'll be so much chaos, our actions will probably be lost in the shuffle" ...
..."Hey..I mean..What have we got to lose?"
Of course, people with even a small conscious wouldn't do such a disgusting thing...

Mycroft · Apr 17, 2022

soap box said:
View attachment 67386098

I have no proof of the following claim, but I am writing this to record a point in time. I have wondered since January of 2020, how did the riot happen? It finally occurred to me that there is a plausible and probable rationale.

So I repeat, and emphasize, the proof of this may come in the Select Committee report, and I’m placing a bet that the following is true. If it is true, and if substantial evidence is released, I will dig this up and post it elsewhere. For now, I understand, it’s just a theory.

The 4-more-years gang. These are the 4 principal players.

Guiliani

Stone

Flynn

Bannon

Guiliani is the link between the WH and the riot. His discussions with trump led to his understanding that trump could not be reelected. On January 4th, 2020, all four men understood that trump had no real path to remain in office. The Democrats would vote down any objection to an EC slate, and Mike Pence refused to declare state slates invalid.

They realized the dead-end that would make Biden president. They realized there was no way to stop Biden’s win.

They believed they were engaged in a mortal struggle for the soul of the nation. No action would be unjustified if trump remained president.

What were they doing all day on January 5th, 2020? They were burning up their phones in communication with each other and with U.S. Representatives.

They reasoned that force was needed. It made sense to them that no lie was too great, and no action was too corrupt if it would make trump president again. They felt that force was their only choice.

Stone was connected to the Proud Boys. Ray Epps was connected to Flynn. They recognized the difference between a shouting a raving crowed on the outside, and taking control of affairs in the Capitol interior.

That made sense to get the rioters inside the building. They reasoned this would delay the EC and allow more time for states to change their slates ( a vain hope without proof of fraud) or worse, take over the government, be supported by the U.S. Army and martial law until the Democrats surrendered. If you read about the intentions and plans of the Oath Keepers, their scenario is even crazier. But crazy doesn’t matter to the 4-more-years gang. Anything that made trump president was justified.

They wanted the riot to happen because they saw no other possible way to keep trump in the White House. They had run out of legal options

If their reasoning and rationale don’t make sense to you, don’t forget we are talking about 4 men who engaged in every Q-nut conspiracy they ever read.

In their minds, they were heroes that would save the republic by stopping the constitutional process that would allow Biden to gain the office of the Presidency.

And that is the link between the riot and the White House and the Capitol riot, mainly and principally, Guiliani working in conjunction with trump himself.
View attachment 67386096

At least you put this in the right forum. I commend you for that.

Queen Margo · Apr 17, 2022

HIP56948 said:
Your thoughts appear to have legs. People like those above usually have ideas like: "They'll be so much chaos, our actions will probably be lost in the shuffle" ...
..."Hey..I mean..What have we got to lose?"
Of course, people with even a small conscious wouldn't do such a disgusting thing...

Yeah, like Obama spying, FBI collusion, false dossiers, unknown news sources...

Queen Margo · Apr 17, 2022

Mycroft said:
At least you put this in the right forum. I commend you for that.

I had to scroll and check then I saw conspiracy theories

Demon · Apr 17, 2022

soap box said:
They believed they were engaged in a mortal struggle for the soul of the nation. No action would be unjustified if trump remained president.

I can't agree with this part - I doubt they care about the 'soul of the nation'. They just wanted to keep Trump in at any cost - keep the power.

Schism · Apr 17, 2022

HIP56948 said:
People like those above usually have ideas like: "They'll be so much chaos, our actions will probably be lost in the shuffle" ...
..."Hey..I mean..What have we got to lose?"
Of course, people with even a small conscious wouldn't do such a disgusting thing...

Steele Dossier, Alfa Bank server, Russia Hoax, pee hookers, Kompromat.

soap box · Apr 17, 2022

Demon said:
I can't agree with this part - I doubt they care about the 'soul of the nation'. They just wanted to keep Trump in at any cost - keep the power.

You're right about that, true.

Common Sense 1 · Apr 17, 2022

Sounds like the partisan get Trump committee could use your help.
Give them a quick call.

Emily L · Apr 17, 2022

I just find it hard to believe that grown men (and women) would actually think that the riots would change anything. No matter what the rioters did, within a day or so, they'd be removed from the capitol and jailed. Then things would go back like they were. There would be no change in the election, the presidency, Congress or anything else.

For that reason, I feel that a big protest was planned, but that the riot, itself, was a spontaneous, crowd-mentality/psychology thing that surprised everyone--including the supposed "planners."

soap box · Apr 17, 2022

Emily L said:
I just find it hard to believe that grown men (and women) would actually think that the riots would change anything. No matter what the rioters did, within a day or so, they'd be removed from the capitol and jailed. Then things would go back like they were. There would be no change in the election, the presidency, Congress or anything else.

For that reason, I feel that a big protest was planned, but that the riot, itself, was a spontaneous, crowd-mentality/psychology thing that surprised everyone--including the supposed "planners."

That would make sense and I would like to think about that, but I wonder about Bannon's quotes from his WarRoom podcasts during the week leading up to the 6th.

January 4
"We're hurtling towards a constitutional crisis, going to be complicated, and it's going to be nasty."

January 5th

EP 631- Pandemic: One Day Away (w/ Maggie VandenBerghe, Jack Posobiec, Sean Parnell and Richard Baris)

While YouTube announces broad censorship mandates for any channel discussing the election, Steve Bannon discusses the latest on the coronavirus

warroom.org

At about 29:30 - "It's not going to happen like you think it's going to happen, OK. It's going to be quite extraordinarily different. And all I can say is: Strap in, the 'War Room' posse. You have made this happen, and tomorrow, it's game day."

“All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. Just understand this. All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. It’s gonna be moving. It’s gonna be quick.”

Morning of Jan. 6, 2021
“We’re coming in right over target,” This is the point of attack we always wanted…today is the day we can affirm the massive landslide on November 3.”

The other thing that bothers me , just a little , is that there was excessive messaging and traffic in December and the first week of January on far right websites and forums, and Bannon's comments echo those views often expressed on the web.

Well, there's more questions than answers and the only thing I'm worried about is that we might never find out for sure, one way or the other!

lurchadams · Apr 17, 2022

Queen Margo said:
Yeah, like Obama spying, FBI collusion, false dossiers, unknown news sources...

LOL - "Obama tapped my phones" Remember? Then the whole administation had to run to cover up his bullshit about it. But for some reason, you still believe it? Hmm.

soap box · Apr 17, 2022

Mycroft said:
At least you put this in the right forum. I commend you for that.

Yes, that reminds me how I check my backpack before I go fly a kite, just to make sure I have what I need. If Im going to the beach, the kite stuff comes with me plus a bunch of other stuff for the beach that I don't need at the park. And if I'm going camping that's another list of things altogether with as much as 60 items. But I don't take my bear repellent with me to go fly a kite. And I don't take my ziptie handcuffs to the beach. They stay on the shelf at home. I only bring my handcuffs and bear spray with me if I plan to use them. And 'plan to use them', of course means I intended to need them, depending on what I expected to happen..... I think ahead and know what I want to do before I leave the house.......

They knew what they wanted to do, and they believed trump sent them, they said so in their posts before and in their depositions after being arrested.

Emily L · Apr 17, 2022

soap box said:
That would make sense and I would like to think about that, but I wonder about Bannon's quotes from his WarRoom podcasts during the week leading up to the 6th.

January 4
"We're hurtling towards a constitutional crisis, going to be complicated, and it's going to be nasty."

January 5th

EP 631- Pandemic: One Day Away (w/ Maggie VandenBerghe, Jack Posobiec, Sean Parnell and Richard Baris)

While YouTube announces broad censorship mandates for any channel discussing the election, Steve Bannon discusses the latest on the coronavirus

warroom.org

At about 29:30 - "It's not going to happen like you think it's going to happen, OK. It's going to be quite extraordinarily different. And all I can say is: Strap in, the 'War Room' posse. You have made this happen, and tomorrow, it's game day."

“All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. Just understand this. All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. It’s gonna be moving. It’s gonna be quick.”

Morning of Jan. 6, 2021
“We’re coming in right over target,” This is the point of attack we always wanted…today is the day we can affirm the massive landslide on November 3.”

The other thing that bothers me , just a little , is that there was excessive messaging and traffic in December and the first week of January on far right websites and forums, and Bannon's comments echo those views often expressed on the web.

Well, there's more questions than answers and the only thing I'm worried about is that we might never find out for sure, one way or the other!

Thanks for that, Soap. I keep forgetting that some people did imply that something violent might happen.

I once read something about how a large crowd of people can be manipulated by just a small group--a "crowd psychology" kind of thing. It was an eye-opener. So, even if most of those on January 6 had no intention of doing anything violent, they might have been so manipulated.

soap box · Apr 17, 2022

Emily L said:
Thanks for that, Soap. I keep forgetting that some people did imply that something violent might happen.

I once read something about how a large crowd of people can be manipulated by just a small group--a "crowd psychology" kind of thing. It was an eye-opener. So, even if most of those on January 6 had no intention of doing anything violent, they might have been so manipulated.

I know you're right about that , crowd psych, by all accounts it was a small number that manipulated others, and a small percentage that caused all the trouble.

Did you hear about the court case just three days ago , Dustin Thompson, shows how blaming it on trump is no defense. Dustin is responsible for Dustin. That's the legal view , but the intrinsic view admits that some people really felt that they understood what trump wanted;
Dominic Pezzola, a member of the Proud Boys:
“The boss of the country said, ‘People of the country, come on down, let people know what you think,’”

And so many did. All sorts of people had all sorts of different reasons to be at the Capitol. It seems like they had lots of different understandings of events too. You're right, some people got caught up in the moment and it was a spontaneous reaction , an improvisation with the crowd. A lot of defendants have testified that they were shocked too. That's true Emily , I thank you for reading this far down and I'm sure lots of others quit at the first comma. This question is like a huge detective story and I have to wait for the clues. It's a working hypothesis, who knows? That's the fun part

Nickyjo · Apr 17, 2022

soap box said:
View attachment 67386098

I have no proof of the following claim, but I am writing this to record a point in time. I have wondered since January of 2020, how did the riot happen? It finally occurred to me that there is a plausible and probable rationale.

So I repeat, and emphasize, the proof of this may come in the Select Committee report, and I’m placing a bet that the following is true. If it is true, and if substantial evidence is released, I will dig this up and post it elsewhere. For now, I understand, it’s just a theory.

The 4-more-years gang. These are the 4 principal players.

Guiliani

Stone

Flynn

Bannon

Guiliani is the link between the WH and the riot. His discussions with trump led to his understanding that trump could not be reelected. On January 4th, 2020, all four men understood that trump had no real path to remain in office. The Democrats would vote down any objection to an EC slate, and Mike Pence refused to declare state slates invalid.

They realized the dead-end that would make Biden president. They realized there was no way to stop Biden’s win.

They believed they were engaged in a mortal struggle for the soul of the nation. No action would be unjustified if trump remained president.

What were they doing all day on January 5th, 2020? They were burning up their phones in communication with each other and with U.S. Representatives.

They reasoned that force was needed. It made sense to them that no lie was too great, and no action was too corrupt if it would make trump president again. They felt that force was their only choice.

Stone was connected to the Proud Boys. Ray Epps was connected to Flynn. They recognized the difference between a shouting a raving crowed on the outside, and taking control of affairs in the Capitol interior.

That made sense to get the rioters inside the building. They reasoned this would delay the EC and allow more time for states to change their slates ( a vain hope without proof of fraud) or worse, take over the government, be supported by the U.S. Army and martial law until the Democrats surrendered. If you read about the intentions and plans of the Oath Keepers, their scenario is even crazier. But crazy doesn’t matter to the 4-more-years gang. Anything that made trump president was justified.

They wanted the riot to happen because they saw no other possible way to keep trump in the White House. They had run out of legal options

If their reasoning and rationale don’t make sense to you, don’t forget we are talking about 4 men who engaged in every Q-nut conspiracy they ever read.

In their minds, they were heroes that would save the republic by stopping the constitutional process that would allow Biden to gain the office of the Presidency.

And that is the link between the riot and the White House and the Capitol riot, mainly and principally, Guiliani working in conjunction with trump himself.
View attachment 67386096

Nah. Trump and company are morally responsible for Jan 6. They may be liable civilly. Trump certainly didn’t seem displeased with what happened. But I doubt they were instrumental in orchestrating what happened, if that is what you are getting at.

soap box · Apr 18, 2022

Nickyjo said:
Nah. Trump and company are morally responsible for Jan 6. They may be liable civilly. Trump certainly didn’t seem displeased with what happened. But I doubt they were instrumental in orchestrating what happened, if that is what you are getting at.

I think the 4-more-years gang was instrumental in orchestrating what happened at the Hill. Meadows and WH staff weren't much interested and avoided contact after January 3rd. That included trump's daughter and son in law.

How much trump knew about the riot before he saw it on tv is a big media black hole. Did he speak with any or all of the 4 gang on January 4th or 5th? There are multiple reports that contradict each other. If we guess that contact with trump was through burner phones , any evidence has been zapped in cyberspace,. the proof is more likely found somewhere else.

I remember now how Stone understood Nixon's fall so well that he knew how to leave the boss out of the loop when it comes to dirty laundry. Flynn, maybe, but Guiliani and Bannon both had a big mouth the whole time. January 4 and 5 are crucial because WH staff finally accepted that Pence was not going to help. Eastman and trump didn't accept it, but the staff largely knew it was over .

Now what was your question again ?, oh , yes I agree of course

Emily L · Apr 18, 2022

soap box said:
I know you're right about that , crowd psych, by all accounts it was a small number that manipulated others, and a small percentage that caused all the trouble.

Did you hear about the court case just three days ago , Dustin Thompson, shows how blaming it on trump is no defense. Dustin is responsible for Dustin. That's the legal view , but the intrinsic view admits that some people really felt that they understood what trump wanted;
Dominic Pezzola, a member of the Proud Boys:
“The boss of the country said, ‘People of the country, come on down, let people know what you think,’”

And so many did. All sorts of people had all sorts of different reasons to be at the Capitol. It seems like they had lots of different understandings of events too. You're right, some people got caught up in the moment and it was a spontaneous reaction , an improvisation with the crowd. A lot of defendants have testified that they were shocked too. That's true Emily , I thank you for reading this far down and I'm sure lots of others quit at the first comma. This question is like a huge detective story and I have to wait for the clues. It's a working hypothesis, who knows? That's the fun part

Thanks, Soap--and good post!

What if...? · Apr 18, 2022

Emily L said:
I just find it hard to believe that grown men (and women) would actually think that the riots would change anything. No matter what the rioters did, within a day or so, they'd be removed from the capitol and jailed. Then things would go back like they were. There would be no change in the election, the presidency, Congress or anything else.

For that reason, I feel that a big protest was planned, but that the riot, itself, was a spontaneous, crowd-mentality/psychology thing that surprised everyone--including the supposed "planners."

I keep wondering if they were after the actual certification document boxes. The ones somehow forgotten in the ruckus except for some unnamed aide who grabbed them up on the way out.

Emily L · Apr 18, 2022

What if...? said:
I keep wondering if they were after the actual certification document boxes. The ones somehow forgotten in the ruckus except for some unnamed aide who grabbed them up on the way out.

That's a good question. What. It sounds like something maybe the committee will be able to find out. There might be all kinds of interesting things that will come out after the committee releases its findings.

dncc · Apr 18, 2022

Emily L said:
I just find it hard to believe that grown men (and women) would actually think that the riots would change anything. No matter what the rioters did, within a day or so, they'd be removed from the capitol and jailed. Then things would go back like they were. There would be no change in the election, the presidency, Congress or anything else.

For that reason, I feel that a big protest was planned, but that the riot, itself, was a spontaneous, crowd-mentality/psychology thing that surprised everyone--including the supposed "planners."

Here is what I think: The plan was to stop the official certification of Biden as President-elect. Thats it. It reminds me of the 2000 election when Bush's team filed motions to stop the re-counting of votes. One commentator stated that "as long as they are not counting votes, Bush is still the winner". As long as they don't certify Biden, Trump is still the President. There is a reason why they brought zip ties. Their plan was to apprehend members of Congress to prevent them from doing their duties.

Emily L · Apr 18, 2022

dncc said:
Here is what I think: The plan was to stop the official certification of Biden as President-elect. Thats it. It reminds me of the 2000 election when Bush's team filed motions to stop the re-counting of votes. One commentator stated that "as long as they are not counting votes, Bush is still the winner". As long as they don't certify Biden, Trump is still the President. There is a reason why they brought zip ties. Their plan was to apprehend members of Congress to prevent them from doing their duties.

Yes, but they should have known that the delay in the process wouldn't last. It would be over as soon as law enforcement and/or the military removed the rioters. Then the vote-counting would have gone on as planned. The rioters were stupid (in my opinion) to think they could hold off the vote forever.

dncc · Apr 18, 2022

Emily L said:
Yes, but they should have known that the delay in the process wouldn't last.

Well, picture this scenario. You kill Mike Pence. Who is VP authorized to count the votes after he's dead? Trump appoints a new VP who will do what he wanted--refuse to certify the election for Biden. Then what? Of course, our antiquated constitution is silent on this matter as it is on a great many--the silence that is exploited at every turn.

Emily L · Apr 18, 2022

dncc said:
Well, picture this scenario. You kill Mike Pence. Who is VP authorized to count the votes after he's dead? Trump appoints a new VP who will do what he wanted--refuse to certify the election for Biden. Then what? Of course, our antiquated constitution is silent on this matter as it is on a great many--the silence that is exploited at every turn.

Nightmare.

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