I've noticed something has changed about the abortion debate on DP

[vanceen]

Logic would tell you that if 2/3rds of human embryos die by nature's hand they cannot be considered human beings. It takes more than genetics to make a human being.

How on earth does logic tell you that? People die by the hand of nature all the time, at all stages of development. Are they not human beings?

 

[Mr Person]

Why only now after 30+ years of having these debates?

Oh, they don't think I'm right. What they are is frustrated that they can't prove me wrong.

Oh yes, and lest you think it wasn’t possible, they’ve dialed up the personal attacks even more.

There soon will be.

And that’s the point.

^^^ see what mean?

Roe is being overturned. Those of us making those arguments are wining.

Awesome. $10,000 is a nice round number.

That's just the first page. See what I meant in Post #2?

A combination of demanding "proof" or an argument, with sealioning. It's not an honest thread. It can't be when his position is you gotta prove me wrong. Then, either declare the person has failed or ask more innocent questions because he just wants to know. Eventually, give the predetermined answer to the latter.




This is supposed to make us think he has evaluted counter-arguments and ruled them out, supposedly showing us that we should agree.

 

[Eriech]

I've been engaging in debates about the Roe decision (though rarely on abortion itself) since I first started participating in online political debate forums in the pre-Internet days (think CompuServe and Hayes modems). From all this experience, and for the most part, I know the arguments the Roe zealots are going to make before they make them. But something has changed this week.

While the same flawed arguments are still being made, at least three times this week I've had Roe defenders say, in so many words, "Fine, I've had enough. I'm leaving," and they do. That almost never happened before. Just now it dawned on me that what I think I'm seeing is an observation I read recently coming true.

For the first time in 50 years, the Roe-crowd is facing the prospect of having to make a cogent, well reasoned argument in favor of abortion rights and persuade others. That's new. Their arguments have not changed. For the most part these folks still can't get past thinking it's all about privacy and continue to blithely ignore the crux of the issue is a still-disputed legal definition of human life. But when these folks hit their inevitable, logical dead ends before this week, they always had the "Well, abortion is a Constitutional right so I win" mentality. Now, they no longer do, they're arguments have to stand on their own with no Roe crutch, and they're simply not up to the task.

It's all rather fascinating.

Isn't that the case with all issues with the left?

 

[dobieg]

I am permanently banned from Facebook and Twitter for being left wing. Keen to make this last

I thought you could only get banned from Facebook and Twitter for being a world class asshat?

 

[trouble13]

Oh you can opinion on it but you aren't a woman so you have zero pull in what we do with our bodies. Your comment was silly about Biden and I called you out on it and you got all pissy. Everyone knows Biden is alive and president. Sorry if you aren't dealing with those facts well.

As long as your choices are killing the children of men. Men will and do have a say in it, both morally and legally.

 

[dobieg]

As a reformed liberal I still embrace a woman's right to choose and make her own decisions about her own body. It's the one issue I can't see myself evolving on.

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

As long as your choices are killing the children of men. Men will and do have a say in it, both morally and legally.

HAHAHAA!! Yes, this is all about fragile masculinity. If you f*ck someone who you have no deep connection to, you have no ownership of her womb. Make that decision BEFORE having sex

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

As a reformed liberal I still embrace a woman's right to choose and make her own decisions about her own body. It's the one issue I can't see myself evolving on.

As opposed to what issues? Gay rights? Trans rights? Black rights? Let me guess, you know women?

 

[trouble13]

We knew all along we can't stop the right hating women. What's changed is we can't depend on the government not hating women. The case for abortion rights is simple and clear. The case against them is emotional and nonsensical because, as always, the right don't say what they mean so addressing the point made is a waste of time.

The lights are going out in America. They may be out for our lifetime. It's not just abortion. Next will be gay marriage. Then sex outside marriage. Trans kids are in deep trouble, if i had a trans kid in the USA, I'd apply to Germany for refugee status

I heard they are planning to repeal the 13th amendment and are planning on making it legal to own and sell Democrats.

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

I heard they are planning to repeal the 13th amendment and are planning on making it legal to own and sell Democrats.

It's interesting that some time in the 70s, the southern states moved from being Democrats to Republicans, as Republicans became the party of race hate. It's interesting that the people who hate and lie about BLM and give succour to white nationialists use 1885 as an excuse for their behaviour today

 

[trouble13]

Do you think it's morally wrong to pull the plug on someone who is brain dead?

That decision should be left exclusively up to their mother.

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

That decision should be left exclusively up to their mother.

I think pulling the plug on someone who is brain dead starts with a doctor making that call, although the next of kin would have a final say

 

[trouble13]

You do realize how STUUPID that sounds don't you. There soon will be a need to persuade others that a woman has the right to control her own body.

You are simply acknowledging that the entire anti-aborition argument is for crap. That people should have to persuade others that a woman has the right to control her own body simply tells us the degree to which the anti-choice crowd is completely screwed up and obsessed with obscene notions and willing to go to any ends including lying SC Justices to achieve their obscene notions. Does not tell us any more than that.

The entire anti-abortion argument is not even about unborn babies, fetuses or any of the crap the anti-choice crowd throw up. It is about treating women like property and taking us all back to the stone ages.

Tell me, is there a need to have to persuade others that a man has the right to control his own body? NO I DIDN"T THINK SO.

Women have a choice to not open their legs. They know if they do a child may be created. A child that is not entirely theirs.

 

[dobieg]

As opposed to what issues? Gay rights? Trans rights? Black rights? Let me guess, you know women?

Why wouldn't I support any of those rights?

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

Why wouldn't I support any of those rights?

You're only slightly conservative, LOL. The right hate all those things, pay attention. They are crying about women's sports and bathroom, and certainly furious about gay marriage. The faux outrage from the right a few years ago was a cake baker selling a gay wedding cake. I was always curious if they quizzed straight couples to 100% approve their marriage before baking the cake. Of course not

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

Women have a choice to not open their legs. They know of they do a child may be created. A child that is not entirely theirs.

Spoken like a typical clueless man LOL!! The pill fails. Condoms burst. Casual sex partners claim to put on a condom and don't. Women get raped. None of this is your business or your right to weigh in on

The child is theirs. Who else's is it? The guy who gave her a casual f*ck and moved on?

 

[Captain Adverse]

That is the problem. If one asserts that there is a Constitutional “right to privacy” which makes abortion on demand a right, the burden of proof is on them to show us the text of this “right to privacy”. Instead they take the sleazy way out and shift the burden to proving that this unwritten, yet claimed, Constitutional “right to privacy” does not exist. Of course, asking to see what they assert this “right to privacy” says is met with crickets.

Well, the "right to privacy" is generally thought to exist per the 4th Amendment which states:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The point being that both your physical person, and your property are protected from invasive seizing, or invasion as a natural right of privacy.

The argument then becomes, if one is protected from such searches and seizures, then surely one's body is also protected from any invasive procedures against your will absent a warrant to do so.

However, the problem always becomes one of how to protect the "innocent" who are residing in ones "property" from harms and death?

That allows invasion under "exigent circumstances:"

"Circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry (or other relevant prompt action) was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of the suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts." https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/exigent_circumstances

Thus the right to privacy is not unlimited.

 

[trouble13]

HAHAHAA!! Yes, this is all about fragile masculinity. If you f*ck someone who you have no deep connection to, you have no ownership of her womb. Make that decision BEFORE having sex

If she does not want her womb to be used as nature intended it she should not open her legs for men.

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

If she does not want her womb to be used as nature intended it she should not open her legs for men.

Tell me you're an incel without saying you're an incel.

This is bullshit. It's based on ignorance and fantasy but thanks for admitting that the core of this is you want to punish women for having sex

 

[trouble13]

It's interesting that some time in the 70s, the southern states moved from being Democrats to Republicans, as Republicans became the party of race hate. It's interesting that the people who hate and lie about BLM and give succour to white nationialists use 1885 as an excuse for their behaviour today

There's nothing remotely interesting about your opinion other than how delusional it is.

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

There's nothing remotely interesting about your opinion other than how delusional it is.

I suggest books as a fascinating way to move past your sheltered little world and understand reality. These are facts and a matter for the historical record. The book I read on it, was excellent

What's your explanation for the GOP moving towards promoting racism, sexism and hate? Was it the same thing turning the frogs gay?

 

[trouble13]

I think pulling the plug on someone who is brain dead starts with a doctor making that call, although the next of kin would have a final say

Nope just the mother. It should be her sole decision, just like abortions. You were trying to conflate abortions with this right? Let's treat it how you want abortions treated. See how that works out.

 

[trouble13]

Spoken like a typical clueless man LOL!! The pill fails. Condoms burst. Casual sex partners claim to put on a condom and don't. Women get raped. None of this is your business or your right to weigh in on

The child is theirs. Who else's is it? The guy who gave her a casual f*ck and moved on?

Then don't come looking for mommy support 9 months later if its only hers.

 

[ChrisIsLeft]

Then don't come looking for mommy support 9 months later if its only hers.

You seem to not understand how life works. If you have sex with a woman, she owns her body. You can't make her have a child, or stop her having one. But given you made it, if she has it, you pay for it.

Almost like actions have consequences?

 

[cpwill]

There is no need to persuade others that a woman has the right to control her own body. That goes without saying.

This fits well on a bumper sticker, but, falls apart like wet tissue paper under examination. Our control of our own bodies is limited all the time. For example, I'm not allowed to use it to assault people. I'm also not allowed to put heroin in it, or take it too fast on the freeway. I am required to put clothes on it when I take it outside, and if someone wants me to get it off their property, I have to do so, even if I don't want to.

How would you like the State to tell you what doctor you may see and what medical procedures you can have?

Out of curiosity, what is your position on socialized healthcare?

I think all men who are against the right of a women to control her own body should be forcibly sterilized by the State so they can see what a horror they are putting women through.

Assuming you agree with any of the restrictions mentioned above, let us know how the procedure goes for you.