Israeli Officials Weigh Sharing Power With Arab States in Postwar Gaza (1 Viewer)

[Michael Cole]

Here's a better idea:

We go back to 1947 and undo the partition plan to start from scratch. An interim protectorate is established for all of the Levant, Israel, Gaza, Jerusalem, etc. We can call it a "mandate", under international control. After a certain period of time, the international coalition will decide they have had enough and establish a new partition plan that takes the interests of all parties into consideration.

Sound good?

One state solution?

 

[NWRatCon]

One state solution?

I think that is the Israeli plan. Technically mine is a no state solution - until we figure out a way to correct the horrendous mistake.

I cannot see the Israeli proposal of this thread as anything but a cynical ploy to a) avoid "responsibility" for its destruction of Gaza; and b) prevent/derail the international push to create/recognize a Palestinian state.

Let's face it, the Israel experiment has failed. That's reality. How long did it take for Israel to recreate the coalition that eventually became the current government? Netanyahu has been "in power" much of the last quarter century and look what it has consistently yielded: wars, instability, lack of security, and expansionist policies. The October 7 tragedy did not occur in a vacuum and out of the blue. It was the result of deliberate, misguided actions over decades.

The 1947 partition plan was flawed from the outset, and not based upon any realistic or equitable solution. The seeds of its inevitable failure were sown early and solidified in its implementation.

If we want to test the sincerity of the Israeli proposal - and I would welcome feedback on that - I'd suggest we broaden it. Put both Jerusalem/West Bank and Gaza back together into the "protectorate". That, after all, was the original plan of partition. Certainly Israel cannot object to that? It would free them of the burden of "administering" the OPT (Occupied Palestinian Territories).

That would, of course, necessitate abandonment of the Israelification of those territories - eliminating settlement activity - and reversion to the status quo ante. Think that would be amenable to the current administration? That would, you see, be a legitimate peace plan and path to a two-state solution.

 

[Michael Cole]

I think that is the Israeli plan. Technically mine is a no state solution - until we figure out a way to correct the horrendous mistake.

What I'm asking is whether this protectorate or whatever you want to call it will divide or unite the area. I don't see a one state solution being viable without intense deprogramming. The culture in the occupied territories is hatred for Jews. Whether such hatred can be seen as deserved is irrelevant to the fact it exists.

It's not something that can be done through simple negotiation.

 

[NWRatCon]

What I'm asking is whether this protectorate or whatever you want to call it will divide or unite the area. I don't see a one state solution being viable without intense deprogramming. The culture in the occupied territories is hatred for Jews. Whether such hatred can be seen as deserved is irrelevant to the fact it exists.

It's not something that can be done through simple negotiation.

I completely agree. In another thread I cited to a Rand paper

Israel's 'People's Army' at War​

Although it is specifically about the military, the concepts are relevant here as well. It has to do with the Israeli mindset that controls so much of the population, and certainly its institutions.

It concludes:

"One of the United States' less talked about, but perhaps more impressive, accomplishments of World War II was that it built a force that could not only win the war, but also transition into one able to win the peace that followed. Washington began planning and building the different types of forces it would need for postwar administration and reconstruction years ahead of time. And just as importantly, the United States turned its military's mindset from one focused on defeating Germany and Japan to helping rebuild those societies.

Israel's challenge is similar but even more difficult, given Israel's troubled history with the Palestinians not just during the current conflict, but in the 75 years since its founding. If the United States can help the IDF win this crucial next fight—one that's mostly fought without bombs and bullets—then Israelis, Palestinians, and the entire region will be all the better for it."

Israel will be much better off if it can address the causes of Palestinian agitation (granted, an impossibly difficult task), rather than constantly attacking its results. Hamas is the result of decades of bad Israeli policy aimed at denigrating and foiling Palestinian aspirations, rather than commitment to peace. In order to "win the peace", Israeli society needs to change its mindset - and that is the project of generations.

 

[Michael Cole]

I completely agree. In another thread I cited to a Rand paper

Israel's 'People's Army' at War​

Although it is specifically about the military, the concepts are relevant here as well. It has to do with the Israeli mindset that controls so much of the population, and certainly its institutions.

It concludes:

"One of the United States' less talked about, but perhaps more impressive, accomplishments of World War II was that it built a force that could not only win the war, but also transition into one able to win the peace that followed. Washington began planning and building the different types of forces it would need for postwar administration and reconstruction years ahead of time. And just as importantly, the United States turned its military's mindset from one focused on defeating Germany and Japan to helping rebuild those societies.

Israel's challenge is similar but even more difficult, given Israel's troubled history with the Palestinians not just during the current conflict, but in the 75 years since its founding. If the United States can help the IDF win this crucial next fight—one that's mostly fought without bombs and bullets—then Israelis, Palestinians, and the entire region will be all the better for it."

Israel will be much better off if it can address the causes of Palestinian agitation (granted, an impossibly difficult task), rather than constantly attacking its results. Hamas is the result of decades of bad Israeli policy aimed at denigrating and foiling Palestinian aspirations, rather than commitment to peace. In order to "win the peace", Israeli society needs to change its mindset - and that is the project of generations.

Like I said, deserved or not.

What I see is Arabs in Jordan and Egypt who are capable of living in peace with Israel. This is a reflection of leadership. The occupied territories have been devoid of competent leadership. If the culture is one of hatred for Jews, which does extend into Jordan, then the state must prevent violence. In Gaza, the state is the perpetrator of violence.

WWII was a clash of industrialized nations. The war was not driven by ancient religious beliefs. What we have in the Middle East is a clash of cultures, and simply rebuilding is only a first step.

 

[NWRatCon]

What I see is Arabs in Jordan and Egypt who are capable of living in peace with Israel. This is a reflection of leadership. The occupied territories have been devoid of competent leadership. If the culture is one of hatred for Jews, which does extend into Jordan, then the state must prevent violence. In Gaza, the state is the perpetrator of violence.

WWII was a clash of industrialized nations. The war was not driven by ancient religious beliefs. What we have in the Middle East is a clash of cultures, and simply rebuilding is only a first step.

Again, complete agreement.

Israel, since its reincarnation, has been ruled more often by those with the ancient mindset of militantism than a vision for a future of peace. There are significant elements within Israeli society - and some leadership - that recognize this, but they have not been able to consistently move Israeli society along that path.

I don't know what the final result can be (no one does), and not entirely what it should be, but the current situation is untenable and obviously contrary to a solution. This proposal, while "reasonable" on its face, is fatally flawed in conception - as the thread title indicates:

Israeli Officials Weigh Sharing Power With Arab States in Postwar Gaza​

What share? Israel has no business in Gaza whatsoever. But, if it wants to have influence there, it can take a different tack, focused on the future. It should - indeed, must - participate in the rebuilding of the Gazan infrastructure, to demonstrate it has a real interest in future peace.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

From the Israelis who had stolen it fair and square... (or, so the Bible says)

That was their homeland after they fled the Egyptians.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Here's a question. Have you made any mistakes in the last 17 years?

Too many to count.

None of them included electing a terrorist group. In fact, I helped vote a traitor/terrorist out of office.

 

[NWRatCon]

That was their homeland after they fled the Egyptians.

After they genocided the Canaanites.

I'm simply pointing out that Israelites have never had clean hands.

 

[multivita-man]

So. It appears Israel may be looking for someone else to pick up the rebuilding tab.

I read somewhere (forgot where) it would probably take 10-15 years to completely rebuild what Israel has destroyed. Even if that's a wildly inaccurate estimate, a conservative estimate (on that basis) is, what, half that then? The better part of a decade? A lot of refugees will probably never come back.

 

[NWRatCon]

Too many to count.

None of them included electing a terrorist group. In fact, I helped vote a traitor/terrorist out of office.

I've never voted one in.

 

[multivita-man]

They voted for Hamas. Look what Hamas did.

They participated in an election that Israel was actively trying to rig, thereby diminishing the credibility of Fatah. Whether it would have mattered had they stayed away, I can't say. Maybe it wouldn't. But I think it's silly to suggest that Gazans somehow deserve community punishment because of some election that the vast majority of Gazans alive today didn't participate in.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

They participated in an election that Israel was actively trying to rig, thereby diminishing the credibility of Fatah. Whether it would have mattered had they stayed away, I can't say. Maybe it wouldn't. But I think it's silly to suggest that Gazans somehow deserve community punishment because of some election that the vast majority of Gazans alive today didn't participate in.

I am not saying they need collective punishment. I am just saying... I do not believe they can be trusted to elect a non-terrorist government.

The school textbooks still glorify killing the Jews, thereby breeding hate. How can we trust them to do the right thing in terms of government when they are still indoctrinating their population to destroy the Jews?

 

[ColdHardTruth]

After they genocided the Canaanites.

I'm simply pointing out that Israelites have never had clean hands.

Fair enough.

 

[NWRatCon]

I am not saying they need collective punishment. I am just saying... I do not believe they can be trusted to elect a non-terrorist government.

Can we? Can the Israelis?

The school textbooks still glorify killing the Jews, thereby breeding hate. How can we trust them to do the right thing in terms of government when they are still indoctrinating their population to destroy the Jews?

What do you think Israeli settler textbooks indocrinate?

 

[multivita-man]

I am not saying they need collective punishment. I am just saying... I do not believe they can be trusted to elect a non-terrorist government.

The school textbooks still glorify killing the Jews, thereby breeding hate. How can we trust them to do the right thing in terms of government when they are still indoctrinating their population to destroy the Jews?

You might have a point here. It's hard to comment on what a post-war Gaza would/should look like in the interim between the last shots fired and a new Gaza, whatever that is.

 

[coyote505]

For months, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has avoided detailed public discussion about the Gaza Strip’s postwar future. Trying to placate both his far-right allies, who seek to rebuild Israeli settlements in Gaza, and Israel’s foreign partners, who want Gaza returned to Palestinian governance, Netanyahu has stopped short of any specific declaration.

Behind the scenes, however, senior officials in his office have been weighing an expansive plan for postwar Gaza, in which Israel would offer to share oversight of the territory with an alliance of Arab countries, including Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, as well as the United States, according to three Israeli officials and five people who have discussed the plan with members of the Israeli government.

Israeli Officials Weigh Sharing Power With Arab States in Postwar Gaza

JERUSALEM — For months, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has avoided detailed public discussion about the Gaza Strip’s postwar future. Trying to placate both his far-right allies, who seek to rebuild Israeli settlements in Gaza, and Israel’s foreign partners, who want Gaza returned to...

news.yahoo.com

Sounds daft at first impression. However, it is much like we did with Germany after WWII, when we weren't ready to trust them with governing themselves for quite a while. That worked out OK.

 

[NWRatCon]

What do you think Israeli settler textbooks indocrinate?

Here's some clues about textbooks:

Textbooks in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict (Wikipedia)​

2009-2012 report​

A comprehensive three-year study, regarded by its researchers as 'the most definitive and balanced study to date on the topic',[20][21] was conducted between 2009 and 2012. The researchers examined 3,000 authors, illustrations, and maps in school books used in Palestinian, Israeli state, and Israeli ultra-Orthodox schools. The study found that incitement, demonization or negative depictions of the other in children's education was "extremely rare" in both Israeli and Palestinian school texts, with only 6 instances discovered in over 9,964 pages of Palestinian textbooks, none of which consisted of "general dehumanising characterisations of personal traits of Jews or Israelis".[20] Israeli officials rejected the study as biased, while Palestinian Authority officials claimed it vindicated their view that their textbooks are as fair and balanced as Israel's.[22]

2013 CRIHL study​

In 2009 a study was launched by the Council for Religious Institutions in the Holy Land, an interfaith association of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim leaders in Israel and the Occupied Territories, which planned on making recommendations to both sides' Education Ministries based on the report.[23] It was supervised by a psychiatrist, Prof. emeritus Bruce Wexler of Yale University and his NGO – A Different Future and commissioned a joint Palestinian-Israeli research team headed by Professors Daniel Bar-Tal (Tel Aviv University) and Sami Adwan (Bethlehem University), which employed research assistants (6 Israeli and 4 Palestinian bilingual research assistants) to analyse texts of 370 Israeli and 102 Palestinian books from grades 1 to 12.[24] Both The Guardian and AAP mention 3000 approved textbooks from 2011 as subject to the study's analysis, including those used in the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community's educational system.[20][25] The Israel ministry of education's Arabic texts for Israeli Arab schools were omitted from the survey.[20]

The study, overseen by an international Scientific Advisory Panel (SAP), was to proceed in three phases: organization, analysis, and review, and was projected to draw up its conclusions by May 2012.[26] The study was funded by the United States State Department.[23] The Palestinian National Authority cooperated with the researchers while Israel withheld formal participation.[24]

The results of the comprehensive in-depth survey, entitled "Victims of Our Own Narratives? Portrayal of the 'Other' in Israeli and Palestinian School Books",[27] were announced in February 2013, in a statement signed by most members of the advisory panel, with the exception of several members, including Jerusalem physician Elihu Richter, who believes the method might understate Palestinian incitement,[22] and of Arnon Groiss, who had not read the final report and also had doubts about the methodology employed. The advisory council statement attested to the high quality of the scientific standards used, and underwrote the findings.[24] Complaints were made that they had not been given an advanced copy of the final report. One anonymous SAP member likened the potential impact of the study to the Goldstone Report.[27]
....
76% of Israeli textbook maps fail to distinguish the Palestinian territories and Israel, and the Palestinian areas lack labelling, implying that the Palestinian areas form part of Israel.[20][28][30] (Emphasis mine)

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Can we? Can the Israelis?

I think we can. I am not sure about the Israelis.

What do you think Israeli settler textbooks indocrinate?

I am willing to be it does not call for the deaths of all Arabs.

 

[NY guy]

Sounds daft at first impression. However, it is much like we did with Germany after WWII, when we weren't ready to trust them with governing themselves for quite a while. That worked out OK.

Exactly

 

[skews13.]

For months, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has avoided detailed public discussion about the Gaza Strip’s postwar future. Trying to placate both his far-right allies, who seek to rebuild Israeli settlements in Gaza, and Israel’s foreign partners, who want Gaza returned to Palestinian governance, Netanyahu has stopped short of any specific declaration.

Behind the scenes, however, senior officials in his office have been weighing an expansive plan for postwar Gaza, in which Israel would offer to share oversight of the territory with an alliance of Arab countries, including Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, as well as the United States, according to three Israeli officials and five people who have discussed the plan with members of the Israeli government.

Israeli Officials Weigh Sharing Power With Arab States in Postwar Gaza

JERUSALEM — For months, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has avoided detailed public discussion about the Gaza Strip’s postwar future. Trying to placate both his far-right allies, who seek to rebuild Israeli settlements in Gaza, and Israel’s foreign partners, who want Gaza returned to...

news.yahoo.com

Netanyahu won't have any say over Gazas postwar future. He will have consequences to face when its over. As will his far right government.

Arab money has already put Biden on notice that there will be a two state solution regarding the Palestinians, and the illegal settlements on the West Bank will stop.

This isn't a choice Israel has.

 

[NY guy]

Netanyahu won't have any say over Gazas postwar future. He will have consequences to face when its over. As will his far right government.

Arab money has already put Biden on notice that there will be a two state solution regarding the Palestinians, and the illegal settlements on the West Bank will stop.

This isn't a choice Israel has.

Netanyahu won't be there for long he will be voted out soon and not because of the war

 

[NWRatCon]

I think we can. I am not sure about the Israelis.

I'd like to think we can, but we've failed in the past. Israel's failed
on numerous occasions.

I am willing to be it does not call for the deaths of all Arabs.

What Arabs? Palestine doesn't exist.

BTW, did you read the facts about textbooks?

 

[zincwarrior]

After they genocided the Canaanites.

I'm simply pointing out that Israelites have never had clean hands.

Dude thats the Bible from 3,000 years ago. Your hate for Da Jews is...STRONG!

Democrats will regret supporting Hew hate under the guise of anti colonialism Israeli protest.

 

[NWRatCon]

Dude thats the Bible from 3,000 years ago.

Dude, I'm countering nonfactual claims.

The settler mythology is largely based upon lies. The reality is that modern Israel has no historical connection to ancient Israel, and hadn't for a thousand years. Ancient "Israel" was a brief, violent occupation that only lasted a few hundred years, many centuries ago. The same can be said for hundreds of ancient societies. Vikings, Persians, Egyptians, Mesopotamia, Mayans.... which Tribe should govern the world? Pick a location, I'll give you several.

Your hate for Da Jews is...STRONG!

You're well aware that is slander, yet you persist. What does that indicate? You seem to have a particular obsession. It's rather ugly. It's an indication of a poorly developed personality.