Israel needs to respond responsibly and legally to Hamas' attack - not commit even worse

[Michael Cole]

After a fairly uniform poster response right after this unexpected atrocity happened to Israel, I've sure been caught off guard by how VERY quickly that tone changed from many on the left.

The left? The "Jews will not relace us" people? That left? I hear there are very good people on that side.

 

[braindrain]

Your dodging is noted.

Sorry that the facts clearly hurt your feelings so much.

Asking you to back up your claim is dodging now.

How cute

 

[Tigerace117]

Asking you to back up your claim is dodging now.

How cute

Since you keep running, I’ll repeat it......are you denying that the Contras were explicitly told to go after civilians?

 

[braindrain]

Since you keep running, I’ll repeat it......are you denying that the Contras were explicitly told to go after civilians?

So no proof of your claim. Can’t say I am surprised.

 

[Tigerace117]

So no proof of your claim. Can’t say I am surprised.

Still dodging I see.

Since you keep running, I’ll repeat it......are you denying that the Contras were explicitly told to go after civilians?

 

[braindrain]

Still dodging I see.

Since you keep running, I’ll repeat it......are you denying that the Contras were explicitly told to go after civilians?

Just fyi asking you to back up your claim is not dodging.

I know that is a complicated concept but try real hard and you will figure it out.

 

[post]

No, no, I think they need to make a huge ****ing mess.

Okay, so how do they do that without losing all of the hostages? How do they do that without creating a humanitarian crisis
beyond the resources of a country of 7 million to reverse after accomplishing military objectives, even if they weren't divided, but they are?

They've threatened to cut off fuel for the power plant, which has an estimated two days remaining, as well as water, and food.
Once the power plant ceases to generate and with the absence of water, the remaining food supply spoils, the hospitals
cease ability to provide services.

They need a way to isolate the belligerent target, "MAMs". A way to expose them is to offer safe passage out of Gaza to
all women, children, and elderly, a huge undertaking but a practical, lawful, more manageable plan than the direction the IDF seem headed.
How do they provide security for those permitted to evacuate with the inevitability that the hostages won't be released in reaction
to an offer to isolate the MAMS in the occupied zone? The evacuated will be targeted in reaction to the expectations of the hostages' fate!

Or, they can simply attempt to kill their way out of the problem by employing military force and siege tactics they've already announced, cut off of fuel,, electricity, food and water. A revenge campaign, as already announced. The more it resembles the Warsaw
ghetto circumstances, they further they distance themselves from who the founders were and what they fought for.

 

[vanceen]

I respect and agree with what George Takei says. This is coming from someone with experience

George Takei
@GeorgeTakei

When I was a little boy, the Japanese military attacked Pearl Harbor. It was a surprise attack, and thousands of U.S. servicemembers perished. As a nation, we were stunned. And we vowed to strike back. Revenge was understandably on everyone’s mind, including many Americans of Japanese descent who opposed the emperor and were peaceful and law-abiding U.S. citizens and residents.

In its zeal to exact that revenge, however, the U.S. government overreacted, out of fear and bigotry. They targeted everyone who happened to look like the people who had carried out the attack. Those of us who had done nothing wrong were forced to pay the consequences for the decisions of others far away and disconnected from us. We were interned for years, in open-air prisons, while America went off to fight Japan, Germany and Italy.It’s so important that we carry the lessons of the past through to today. Merely because one group commits atrocities and acts with depravity does not mean vast hundreds of thousands or even millions of others should be lumped together with them and made to suffer. We must never paint with the brush of justice and retaliation too broadly, or the toll of human suffering will rise immeasurably.

11:39 AM · Oct 8, 2023
·
9M
Views

The Japanese internment was wrong, but it's nonsense to say it was "revenge". It was done out of fear that ethnic Japanese on the west coast would support an invasion by Japan.

 

[trixare4kids]

You're not honest. Why should I read another word from you? They made a rightful demand that Israel not target houses and kill women and children. Israel would be right to make the same demand.

Why would Israel target houses and kill women and children when in those houses are women and children who are being held hostages by Hamas?

 

[Tigerace117]

Just fyi asking you to back up your claim is not dodging.

I know that is a complicated concept but try real hard and you will figure it out.

And yet another dodge from you.

 

[post]

The Japanese internment was wrong, but it's nonsense to say it was "revenge". It was done out of fear that ethnic Japanese on the west coast would support an invasion by Japan.

It was revenge, a racist influence and property grab. Citizens were given no separate consideration, property and businesses were confiscated without due process. The test is to compare the treatment of ethnic Japanese residents of Hawaii and of naturalized German and Italian U.S. residents.

Internment of Japanese Americans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"..Approximately two-thirds of the inmates were United States citizens.[10] These actions were initiated by President Franklin D. Roosevelt via Executive Order 9066 following Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.[11]

Of the 127,000 Japanese Americans who were living in the continental United States at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, 112,000 resided on the West Coast.[12] About 80,000 were Nisei (literal translation: 'second generation'; American-born Japanese with U.S. citizenship) and Sansei ('third generation', the children of Nisei). The rest were Issei ('first generation') immigrants born in Japan who were ineligible for U.S. citizenship under U.S. law.[13]

Japanese Americans were placed in concentration camps based on local population concentrations and regional politics. More than 112,000 Japanese Americans who were living on the West Coast were incarcerated in camps which were located in its interior. In Hawaii (which was under martial law), where more than 150,000 Japanese Americans comprised over one-third of the territory's population, only 1,200 to 1,800 were incarcerated.[14] California defined anyone with 1⁄16th or more Japanese lineage as a person who should be incarcerated.[15] Colonel Karl Bendetsen, the architect of the program, went so far as to say that anyone with "one drop of Japanese blood" qualified for incarceration...
...
However, those unable to strike a deal with caretakers had to sell their property, often in a matter of days and at great financial loss to predatory land speculators, who made huge profits.

In addition to these monetary and property losses, there were seven who were shot and killed by sentries:
..."

 

[vanceen]

It was revenge, a racist influence and property grab. Citizens were given no separate consideration, property and businesses were confiscated without due process. The test is to compare the treatment of naturalized German and Italian U.S. residents.

You have presented no facts to support your claim. There was a concentration of ethnic Japanese on the west coast, and in their fear of an invasion the government wrongly interned them. It was a gross injustice, but it had nothing to do with revenge.

Your "test" doesn't work at all. There was no possibility of an imminent invasion from Germany or Italy.

 

[Lycanthrope]

why did Bibi and the Mossad let it happen? They’re not that incompetent.

NYT has an op-ed that outlines the reasoning:

Attack Ends Israel’s Hope That Hamas Might Come to Embrace Stability

Israel had considered Hamas a terrorist organization but one that could play a useful role for Israel in the Gaza Strip, which the group controls. Now, senior Israeli officials say, Hamas must be crushed.

www.nytimes.com

If Western nations considered Hamas a terrorist organization, they also thought it was preoccupied with governing Palestinians crammed into Gaza. Hamas provided social services. It was even thought a restraint on what were considered even more radical groups.

In Israel, successive governments cut quiet deals with Hamas, hoping to keep a form of stability in the Gaza Strip, which the group controls, esp. after the Israelis withdrew unilaterally from the territory in 2005.

But the assault launched by Hamas this weekend...has now stripped away any remaining illusions about the group or its intentions.

Just an op-ed, but one grounded in reality. Without descending into the morass of "This/that side is justified," there will be nothing left of the Gaza Strip after Israel has finished. The only questions that are unresolved at this point is a) will the Arab states attempt anything beyond vocal/logistic support of Palestinians, and b) will Palestinians continue to acquiese to their own destruction for the sake of the Arab dream of destroying the stare of Israel.

 

[Craig234]

The point is not whether they are likely to achieve the goal of destroying Israel. The point is that the destruction of Israel is their clearly stated goal, and that they are not going to stop trying unless someone stops them.

And the point is that the destruction of Palestine is the clear goal of Israel's right who are in power, and they CAN AND ARE doing it, and they won't stop unless someone makes them. That's a reason for the victims of that attack to turn to a group like Hamas. If Israel accepted a two state solution, the Palestinian people could support a different government, leaving Hamas a fringe group.

 

[Slaughterhouse]

I have a hell of a lot more respect for a Hamas fighter than some fat and happy American, who never served sitting and passing judgement.

Oh yes, those heroic Hamas terrorists who showed incredible bravery & courage by hunting down, raping, killing & taking hostage unarmed women and children!

You're amazing warriors Hamas! Much respect to you from @armycowboy

 

[Craig234]

I respect and agree with what George Takei says. This is coming from someone with experience

Takei is right about his history, but is mostly wrong, as there are differences. A better analogy would if the US was already imprisoning Japanese Americans to wipe them out, and in response the Japanese-Americans had elected the Pearl Harbor attackers.

 

[Bodi]

Hamas fighters did what they had to do. Did you ever serve? The US Military is a very different thing than Hamas. And you might not know this, we killed a hell of a lot of civilians. Not something I'm proud of, but it happened.

How many of those civilians were raped and paraded around and beaten? This is analogous to My Lai Massacre... not combat.



You are supporting animals. They are disgusting trash.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Okay, so how do they do that without losing all of the hostages? How do they do that without creating a humanitarian crisis
beyond the resources of a country of 7 million to reverse after accomplishing military objectives, even if they weren't divided, but they are?

They've threatened to cut off fuel for the power plant, which has an estimated two days remaining, as well as water, and food.
Once the power plant ceases to generate and with the absence of water, the remaining food supply spoils, the hospitals
cease ability to provide services.

They need a way to isolate the belligerent target, "MAMs". A way to expose them is to offer safe passage out of Gaza to
all women, children, and elderly, a huge undertaking but a practical, lawful, more manageable plan than the direction the IDF seem headed.
How do they provide security for those permitted to evacuate with the inevitability that the hostages won't be released in reaction
to an offer to isolate the MAMS in the occupied zone? The evacuated will be targeted in reaction to the expectations of the hostages' fate!

Or, they can simply attempt to kill their way out of the problem by employing military force and siege tactics they've already announced, cut off of fuel,, electricity, food and water. A revenge campaign, as already announced. The more it resembles the Warsaw
ghetto circumstances, they further they distance themselves from who the founders were and what they fought for.

I don't think the Israelis care about any of that.

 

[Craig234]

Oh yes, those heroic Hamas terrorists who showed incredible bravery & courage by hunting down, raping, killing & taking hostage unarmed women and children!

People hate to recognize bravery in enemies. A Hamas fighter shooting a civilian is not brave, it's a crime. But look at the bigger picture - it takes incredible bravery for them to do this attack against the far more powerful Israel, what are the odd what will happen to them? Did the 9/11 attackers show bravery? Did Kamikazes? Did Native American fighters fighting rifles with bows? Did the crew of the Enola Gay?

 

[Craig234]

You seem to have things confused. Land disputes and changing demographics have occurred throughout human history and on every continent except Antarctica. Some remain unresolved, some have been peacefully resolved and some involve continued warfare.

Ah ok, there have never been murderous actions, aggressive displacement and seizure of land, only 'changing demographics'. Much like there is no man-made climate change, only the same 'natural changes to the weather'.

However, your analogy is incorrect. How would the USA deal with an enclave consisting of a densely populated city considered a foreign country the size of Denver which has as the official goal of destruction of the USA?

The US keeps the enclave imprisoned and oppressed for decades, gradually wiping them out, and you think they shouldn't mind.

 

[zincwarrior]

People hate to recognize bravery in enemies. A Hamas fighter shooting a civilian is not brave, it's a crime. But look at the bigger picture - it takes incredible bravery for them to do this attack against the far more powerful Israel, what are the odd what will happen to them? Did the 9/11 attackers show bravery? Did Kamikazes? Did Native American fighters fighting rifles with bows? Did the crew of the Enola Gay?

Was Custer brave for the battle of Washita River?
Were the Japanese brave at Nanking?

 

[Hamish Howl]

why no food and water? that's inhumane

Because it's that kind of war.

 

[Paradoxical]

Israel is far more powerful than the Palestinians. Unfortunately, they have usually abused that power, even worse recently under this historically right-wing, anti-Palestinian government. Hamas committed a horrible, criminal attack on Israel.

Despite the injustices Israel has done, it has the right to defend itself. To fight the attackers, to pursue them, to go to war with them, to pursue justice against them.

As the powerful country oppressing millions of Palestinians, though, what it doesn't have the right to do is to commit its own, likely worse crimes, against Palestinians. To launch a sort of bloodlust, a sort of total war, to commit its own crimes, violating international law on the protection of civilians.

Unfortunately, it's looking like Israel might be doing just that. It fits the politics of this government, just as the attack fit the politics of Hamas. We see it in their language and their actions, with many reported targets attacks destroying civilian buildings, residential complexes, mosques, schools, I think I heard Israel destroyed the children's wing of a hospital.

I admit sitting here in California I don't fully appreciate the political differences with the region. There was an insightful commentary today by an NPR reporter who has covered Hamas for 30 years, saying that in the region the issue is strength.

That the reason Saudi Arabia was making a peace deal was Israel being strong; this attack sows them weak, she said if they're weak, Saudi Arabia and other countries considering deals will not want to make them, that it's now 'all up to Israel' to show they are still strong in their response.

I don't approve of that culture, but that's not relevant to it being the case, apparently giving Israel incentive to be brutal in its response. But the world should oppose their doing so.

The US had enormous sympathy after the 9/11 attacks; we used that for the expansion of 'security' structures, including the illegal warrantless wiretapping of Americans, and to launch the illegal, disastrous Iraq war.

Israel should not use the great sympathy and support it's receiving to protect itself, by surpassing Hamas' crimes in attacking Palestinian civilians, and it appears to have already started to do, and what they're saying is only starting.

Craig, you are a typical left-winger blaming everyone but the perpetrator of crimes and heinous acts. These are MUSLIMS who have been indoctrinated since birth that their god Allah is "great" and so great that he condones any and all atrocities on those who do not believe as they do. For many years now they have been getting away with lobbing bombs here and there and Israel kept its cool and did not retaliate with any great degree of force. Curiously, the same day that Biden and Blinken released 6 terrorists and 6 billion dollars in a horrible deal they (Hamas) started planning this heinous act for no reason at all except perhaps that their god Allah said he was with them and would protect them.

You really think that ISIS/Hamas would stop at defeating Israel if they could defeat them? No. They are at war with the world and unless and until everyone accepts Allah as their God, they will never stop. How far was far enough for Hitler? He was up to 6 million Jews and no one did much of anything about it because the appeasers said we should reason with him. Hitler wanted to rule the entire world. So do tyhe ISIS Muslims.

 

[Craig234]

I’ve often posited that our morality in warfare has been trumped by our technology. Popes of some centuries ago who might have tolerated the excesses of the Inquisition would have never believed that Christian nations would do things like Dresden or Hiroshima.

At the beginning of WWII, allied generals met and determined that they would conduct a moral war. Avoid war crimes. Then as the war went on, their morality was lost, and they adopted such crimes.

 

[Hamish Howl]

People hate to recognize bravery in enemies. A Hamas fighter shooting a civilian is not brave, it's a crime. But look at the bigger picture - it takes incredible bravery for them to do this attack against the far more powerful Israel,

It takes incredible bravery to kill grannies and concert-goers?