Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions [title changed]

[Kandahar]

So was it the 1000th or 1001st suicide bombing that changed your mind?

Now? Now? Amazing. Absolutely amazing. What's different now than before?

Nothing is different, and I think that's the point. The Israelis gave Gaza true independence, and rather than form a functioning state, they chose anarchy and terrorism. The same thing happened when Israel met Hezbollah's demands in 2000 and withdrew from Southern Lebanon.

Perhaps I should've forseen that, but the desire for something to be true can cloud one's judgment about whether it is ACTUALLY true.

Now take your new found awareness and apply it to the mentality that flew planes into buildings. This bullshit will only end when the root of Arab anger, (oppresion by their own), is ended and they have lived in freedom with access to the freeflow of information for generations. But in reality, the real undiscussed solution is to FREE THE WOMEN.

I agree that the Arab world is badly in need of liberation. However I have serious problems with the fact that the Bush Administration routinely conflates liberty with democracy. The latter is counterproductive in the Arab world and actually exacerbates the problem, whereas the former is essential for the reasons you listed above.

Israel has the right idea, and the United States should remove the leash. We should let Israel bomb the crap out of the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Syria, and anyone else in the region that is causing them problems. If those governments collapse or destabilize, good. If Israel fills the power vacuum with an occupation, good. Israel doesn't do nearly as much "oppressing" of the people its occupying as they do to themselves.

And hell yea, Thomas Friedman is a mental stud.

Indeed.

 

[teacher]

Way to roll with it K.

Perhaps I should've forseen that, but the desire for something to be true can cloud one's judgment about whether it is ACTUALLY true.

I struggle with the painful reality that a Acme anvil will not fall on Billo.

I agree that the Arab world is badly in need of liberation. However I have serious problems with the fact that the Bush Administration routinely conflates liberty with democracy. The latter is counterproductive in the Arab world and actually exacerbates the problem,

Like two male Siamese fish in the same bowl.

whereas the former is essential for the reasons you listed above.

Israel has the right idea, and the United States should remove the leash. We should let Israel bomb the crap out of the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Syria, and anyone else in the region that is causing them problems. If those governments collapse or destabilize, good. If Israel fills the power vacuum with an occupation, good. Israel doesn't do nearly as much "oppressing" of the people its occupying as they do to themselves.

I'm all for killing stupid Arabs, and I'm enjoying Israel letting go right now, what is the worst the stupid Arabs can do in retaliation, bomb their children?But it won't solve the long term problem. These psychos will have nukes eventually. You can't occupy them forever, you can't kill them all, you can't always prevent a determined foe willing to die, none of which addresses the problem, if they can't handle self democratic rule because of their, what's the word? Stupidity? Zealousness? Immaturity? Savageness? Fear of women saying "no"? what is left for us to do? The liberal plan of let them be? These fuc*kers are mentally on the level of Christians during the crusades except they are very close to splitting the atom. The liberal way guarantees sooner or later mushroom clouds on our soil, which will not go well for the ME in the long run. Bush's way the worst that can happen is civil war in Iraq. The best a free stable bastion of hope in the ME. We HAVE to deal with this now. I tell you, I'm open to ideas, but my only fix is to free their women, let the female philosophy temper the mens savagery, and hope for the best. Nukes are coming, and Americans seem unable or unwilling to deal with this fact. Every now and again I make that point and ask for reasonable rebuke. Ignored, always. On always with the left/right repeating of media taking points. Why are so many unable to look past the next poll, the fall election, or the next presidential race. No matter the man in office, they will still want us dead. We were lucky it was planes instead of nukes.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

RFK RIP

Palestinians want war? They got it.

At about 12:15 am on June 5, 1968, Sirhan Sirhan shot presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy in the kitchen of the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. Kennedy, who was leaving a campaign rally, was mortally wounded and died the next day. Sirhan was an Arab (palestinian) who had emigrated to the United States in the 1950s and was reportedly disturbed by Kennedy's pro-Israel positions.
http://www.answers.com/topic/sirhan-sirhan

 

[MSgt]

Ditto for Africa and Latin America. It's just that while these place routinely carve themselves up, you don't hear about it because you don't feel it at the pump. Comparing America to the third world is a ridicuous way to make yourself feel superior.

Try not to trivialize the situation. Maybe you don't hear about it, but I study many civilizations and am quite aware of the goings on in Africa...ever been? Individuals can produce every excuse invented by Arabs and Europeans alike, but organized terrorism funded by states is not a problem against America or the international community from Africa or Latin America. They are quite content with slaughtering themselves. This is a Middle Eastern Arab problem in the heartland of Islam. Certainly, our interest in the Middle East is oil (as is all those hypocritical European countries who receive oil off of American blood as they stand on elevated platforms and preach about moral superiority), but oil is such a small part of what is internally happening in the Middle East. They have failed themselves and blaming others has been a time tested tradition for Arabs.

Lies! Saudi Arabia are our friends! Look at how much Bush likes 'em-and if he does, and the boys at ExxonMobil do, they must be on our side. Same thing with that dictatorship-uh, I mean Transitioning Democracy in Nigeria.

Not lies. See it for what it is. In the interest of "stability," we have supported the most brutal regimes in the Middle East. Of course, one also must acknowledge that without our support instead of dealing with the greed of the "House of Saud" or the Shaw of Iran, we would simply be substituting our business relationships with the Bin Laddens and Khomeinis.

We unthinkingly accepted the European legacy. However, we have failed to acknowledge that America wasn't built on "stability" abroad. It was built on the instability of failing nations. Now we rush to hold them up against the will of the popular wish. We have a chance to finally purge ourselve of this European legacy with Iraq. If they become determined to become three seperate countries despite our encouragements that economically and for security they would be better off, then we must not argue against the will of the populations. Democracy is democracy. Nobody should claim that American democracy is the sole definition.

Culture is fate. They are what they are and the oil must flow. It would be a totally different world were the Arabs and Persians interested in human rights (women too), religious tolerance, democracy, education, progress and freedom. However, the oil money has been a drug. Their failures are self-inflicted.

 

[oldreliable67]

Nukes are coming, and Americans seem unable or unwilling to deal with this fact. Every now and again I make that point and ask for reasonable rebuke. Ignored, always. On always with the left/right repeating of media taking points. Why are so many unable to look past the next poll, the fall election, or the next presidential race. No matter the man in office, they will still want us dead. We were lucky it was planes instead of nukes.

[emphasis added]

And there we have the one, the only, teacher, speaking the absolute, unvarnished, truth. Well put, teacher.

 

[G-Man]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Originally Posted by G-Man
And if the US was invaded and occupied but we were then given say Florida back you would be happy with this and would advocate no more resistance?

Why do you ask?

Because some people seem to believe that the withdrawl from Gaza is some sort of monumental turning point in this conflict, it is not. It is argued that because the Palestines got Gaza back they should stop the fighting - I'm just pointing out that no-one else would stop the resistance if they were offered back a small area of the land that is rightfully theirs. We wouldn't be happy with just getting Florida back so why should the Palestines have to settle for just Gaza?

 

[mpg]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Because some people seem to believe that the withdrawl from Gaza is some sort of monumental turning point in this conflict, it is not. It is argued that because the Palestines got Gaza back they should stop the fighting - I'm just pointing out that no-one else would stop the resistance if they were offered back a small area of the land that is rightfully theirs. We wouldn't be happy with just getting Florida back so why should the Palestines have to settle for just Gaza?

Did the Allies give Germany back to the Germans because of attacks on civilians by Germans?

 

[G-Man]

RFK RIP

Palestinians want war? They got it.

Maybe they just want their own land back and have had to resort to war to get it back? Israel was born out of terrorism and has elected terrorist leaders as Prime Ministers - I'm afraid violence is all it understands.

BTW - Nice to see you support terrorist organisations in Ireland who bomb innnocent civilians - guess some terrorist groups are ok after all??

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Maybe they just want their own land back and have had to resort to war to get it back? Israel was born out of terrorism and has elected terrorist leaders as Prime Ministers - I'm afraid violence is all it understands.

BTW - Nice to see you support terrorist organisations in Ireland who bomb innnocent civilians - guess some terrorist groups are ok after all??

Or maybe they bit off more than they can chew when they killed a protected Irishman.


and sinn fein is a political party sir nothing more.

 

[G-Man]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Did the Allies give Germany back to the Germans because of attacks on civilians by Germans?

No because we had no desire to take the land as our own.
If Germany had been occupied and taken over I'm sure future internal conflicts would have been a big possibility.

Israel has NO intention of giving Palestine back to the Palestinians and the UN cannot take action because the US vetos every resolution put forward. The Palestines have had to take action into their own hands.

 

[G-Man]

Or maybe they bit off more than can chew when they killed a protected Irishman.


and sinn fein is a political party sir.

Sinn Fein is the political wing and the IRA is its military wing.

I guess on that logic you have no problem with the Hamas political party which has a seperate military wing?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Sinn Fein is the political wing and the IRA is its military wing.

I guess on that logic you have no problem with the Hamas political party which has a seperate military wing?

Don't really give a **** IRA has dispersed but the Palestinians still killed RFK.


They killed our prince in America. We're there and we aint goin no where.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Because some people seem to believe that the withdrawl from Gaza is some sort of monumental turning point in this conflict, it is not. It is argued that because the Palestines got Gaza back they should stop the fighting - I'm just pointing out that no-one else would stop the resistance if they were offered back a small area of the land that is rightfully theirs. We wouldn't be happy with just getting Florida back so why should the Palestines have to settle for just Gaza?

I already answered this, which of course you ignored because it doesn't jive with your Israel-hating.

If Florida were traditionally an independent nation and we got Florida "back," then yes, the Floridians would absolutely stop fighting their former occupiers. If the West Bank and Gaza want to form a united nation called Palestine, fine. But they don't have any kinship with each other and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. The only reason the attacks have continued from Gaza is because the Gazans want the total destruction of Israel.

Ask yourself this: Suppose Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon, allowed an influx of millions of Arab "refugees," and stopped assassinating terrorist leaders. Would those poor oppressed Arabs stop attacking evil Israel? Of course not. Don't be stupid.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Israel has NO intention of giving Palestine back to the Palestinians and the UN cannot take action because the US vetos every resolution put forward. The Palestines have had to take action into their own hands.

What's your definition of Palestine? Do you mean the entire British colony that existed at the end of WW2 before Israel was created? I agree there are some valid arguments to be made that the partition should not have happened, but it was over 60 years ago. If these people just would stop dwelling on past mistakes, stop expecting millions of people to just up and move somewhere else so they can have their dirt, and focus on improving their own situation instead of diminishing Israel's, then the "Palestinian plight" would not even be an issue today. The anti-Zionists are responsible for the Palestinian problem, not the West.

 

[G-Man]

Don't really give a **** IRA has dispersed but the Palestinians still killed RFK.


They killed our prince in America. We're there and we aint goin no where.

You don't care because you are a hypocrite who supports some terrorist groups who bomb civilians but criticise others for doing the same. You have no actual problem with terrorism - just as long as its us or groups we support who are doing it.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You don't care because you are a hypocrite who supports some terrorist groups who bomb civilians but criticise others for doing the same. You have no actual problem with terrorism - just as long as its us or groups we support who are doing it.

Where do you gather that from soldier? sinn fein is purely political and the officiall IRA only hit (when it hit) targets, not civilians.

In fact they'de rather die themself than to kill a kid or a woman.

 

[G-Man]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

I already answered this, which of course you ignored because it doesn't jive with your Israel-hating.

If Florida were traditionally an independent nation and we got Florida "back," then yes, the Floridians would absolutely stop fighting their former occupiers. If the West Bank and Gaza want to form a united nation called Palestine, fine. But they don't have any kinship with each other and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. The only reason the attacks have continued from Gaza is because the Gazans want the total destruction of Israel.

Ask yourself this: Suppose Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon, allowed an influx of millions of Arab "refugees," and stopped assassinating terrorist leaders. Would those poor oppressed Arabs stop attacking evil Israel? Of course not. Don't be stupid.

Ask yourself why there are millions of Arab refugees in the first place. Israel had no problem kicking them all of the land that they claim.
I don't hate Israel either but I fail to see what 'right' this particluar faith has to this land and why it should be theirs. Why couldn't they just move the refugees into what was Palestine and live together with the Arabs instead of claiming an area of the middle east as their own?? Hundreds of countries across the globe take in refugees - none give these people an area of their country as their own.

 

[G-Man]

Where do you gather that from soldier? sinn fein is purely political and the officiall IRA only hit (when it hit) targets, not civilians.

Were the conservative MP's they bombed soldiers??

Hamas is purely political so its ok then??

Course not....Gerry Adams was well regarded of the head of the IRA (in addition to his post within Sinn Fein) and to distinguish between the two is ridiculous....almost as mich as suggesting those involved with Hamas have no say in what their military wing does.

Liike I said - hypocrite.

 

[G-Man]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

What's your definition of Palestine? Do you mean the entire British colony that existed at the end of WW2 before Israel was created? I agree there are some valid arguments to be made that the partition should not have happened, but it was over 60 years ago. If these people just would stop dwelling on past mistakes, stop expecting millions of people to just up and move somewhere else so they can have their dirt, and focus on improving their own situation instead of diminishing Israel's, then the "Palestinian plight" would not even be an issue today. The anti-Zionists are responsible for the Palestinian problem, not the West.

There is no Palestine at the moment - a more appropraite question should be 'what is Israel? Exactly what area does it cover? No-one seems to know or even question it.

'Stop expecting millions of people to just move' - you mean like what the Israelis did when they kicked out millions of Palestines?

The West is not responsible for the Palestine problem? Oh right the palestines just gave away all their land voluntarily then tried to change their mind later.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

There is no Palestine at the moment

Yes, that's why I asked for your definition of Palestine when you said "Israel has NO intention of giving Palestine back to the Palestinians." That land had been part of a British colony when Israel was formed in 1948, and part of the Ottoman Empire before that. There hasn't been a Palestine since the days of Moses.

- a more appropraite question should be 'what is Israel? Exactly what area does it cover? No-one seems to know or even question it.

That's strange, because the maps I've seen always have clearly-marked borders around Israel. Here's one for example:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/atlas_middle_east/israel_map.jpg

'Stop expecting millions of people to just move' - you mean like what the Israelis did when they kicked out millions of Palestines?

That was wrong, but it was 60 years ago. An entirely different generation of terrorists are still carrying on the fight against an entirely different generation of political leadership in Israel and in the west. The people who they want to push into the Med aren't the same people who drove Arabs out of Israel in the late 1940's, it's not fair to hold them accountable for what their grandparents did. Today's Palestinian terrorists are trying to punish Israelis for something they didn't do, to gain back something they never personally had to begin with. And because of these bass-ackward priorities, they spend most of their time trying to get more territory instead of improving what they actually have.

The West is not responsible for the Palestine problem? Oh right the palestines just gave away all their land voluntarily then tried to change their mind later.

No, the Palestinians were given that land, but at the time they couldn't form a state because of threats from other states in the region who didn't want that (or Israel) to happen:

"As the British forces pulled out of Palestine and the mandate came to an end, the Executive Committee of the Jewish "Yishuv" (community) in Palestine met to decide whether or not to declare a state, as has been envisioned under UN Resolution 181. The Arab states had declared that if such a state was declared, they would invade it. Nonetheless, the committee decided to declare a state, armed with the promise of US President Harry S. Truman that he would recognize such a state if it was declared. The Israeli Declaration of Independence was read out on Friday, the 14th of May 1948 by David Ben Gurion, who then became the first Prime Minister of the new state. The State was quickly recognized by the United States and the USSR.

The Palestinians did not declare a state immediately, and though several attempts were made to do so, they were blocked by the Jordanians and then by the Egyptians. The Egyptians later allowed the declaration of such a state in Gaza in September 1948, but it was recognized by no-one and had no resources and no real existence. Arab states had no interest in the formation of a separate state in Palestine, both because each state had territorial ambitions in Palestine, and because they feared the radical influence of Palestinian leadership under Haj Amin El-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem."​

http://www.mideastweb.org/israeldeclaration.htm

Five of those Arab countries later tried to invade Israel, but they weren't successful. Note they didn't try to invade on behalf of the Palestinians for any sort of injustice, because recall that they didn't even want the formation of a Palestinian state either. They were anti-Zionist for the same reason they were anti-a Palestinian state: because THEY wanted that land for THEMSELVES.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Were the conservative MP's they bombed soldiers??

Hamas is purely political so its ok then??

Course not....Gerry Adams was well regarded of the head of the IRA (in addition to his post within Sinn Fein) and to distinguish between the two is ridiculous....almost as mich as suggesting those involved with Hamas have no say in what their military wing does.

Liike I said - hypocrite.

Hamas doesn't have a political wing it's a single entity.


ping ping ping

 

[Deegan]

Allah help the M.E if we ever ween ourselves off oil, I suspect they will be the next Africa. I think the brightest among them know this will be the case on day, and yet they choose fear, and terrorism as their major export. If we truly want to fight this war and win, you and I will begin to do all we can to send them a message, we will not be held hostage by OPEC! You can drive less, you can take a bus, you can ride a bike, you can do a lot of things, but remember this everytime you fill up.

Many want to blame the oil companies, sure, they are greedy, but that is what capitalism is all about, and we know that this has served us well. If you really want to help, and you want these terrorist nations to answer for their deeds, you will stop and consider this before your next trip to the gas station!

 

[G-Man]

Hamas doesn't have a political wing it's a single entity.

ping ping ping

Not entirely true - Hamas has many different branches - Political movement - hospitals - charities - religious teachings - and of course Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, its military wing.

A bit like Sinn Fein has a political body and a military wing (IRA) which likes to blow up innocent civilians.

You are of course free to support one and condem the other as you do but not only does that make you a hypocrite that makes you a supporter of terrorism.

I think a debate with you on terrorism and its issues is impossible because you seem to think terrorism is ok as long as its us or groups we support who are commiting the terrorism.

 

[G-Man]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Yes, that's why I asked for your definition of Palestine when you said "Israel has NO intention of giving Palestine back to the Palestinians." That land had been part of a British colony when Israel was formed in 1948, and part of the Ottoman Empire before that. There hasn't been a Palestine since the days of Moses.

Well Australia was a Brit colony - I doubt they would have been too happy either if we shipped a load of jews over there and moved all the aussies into a tiny area of their own country.
Nor had there been an Israel or jewish homeland since biblical times - what right do they have to the land?

That's strange, because the maps I've seen always have clearly-marked borders around Israel. Here's one for example:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/atlas_middle_east/israel_map.jpg

I see but when Israel was 'declared' the US recognised it straight away but had no idea what area it covered - how exactly can we do that?
Also, I would be interested if anyone has a link to what area Israel covers - some sort of agreed borders it was given would be great - I am having trouble locating.

That was wrong, but it was 60 years ago. An entirely different generation of terrorists are still carrying on the fight against an entirely different generation of political leadership in Israel and in the west. The people who they want to push into the Med aren't the same people who drove Arabs out of Israel in the late 1940's, it's not fair to hold them accountable for what their grandparents did. Today's Palestinian terrorists are trying to punish Israelis for something they didn't do, to gain back something they never personally had to begin with. And because of these bass-ackward priorities, they spend most of their time trying to get more territory instead of improving what they actually have.

They have no way of improving what they have because of Israeli restrictions placed on their way of life.
'To gain back something they never had'? - so these millions of refugees didn't actually used to have homes and land from which they were kicked out of by Israelis? Whether you want to call it Palestine or anything else the simple fact is these people used to live there and were kicked out by an invading force who now occupys that land and will not give it back.

No, the Palestinians were given that land, but at the time they couldn't form a state because of threats from other states in the region who didn't want that (or Israel) to happen:

http://www.mideastweb.org/israeldeclaration.htm

Five of those Arab countries later tried to invade Israel, but they weren't successful. Note they didn't try to invade on behalf of the Palestinians for any sort of injustice, because recall that they didn't even want the formation of a Palestinian state either. They were anti-Zionist for the same reason they were anti-a Palestinian state: because THEY wanted that land for THEMSELVES.

Why on earth would the muslim world want a Jewish state to be smacked down right in the middle of it? Would the West accept the creation of an Islamic state right smack in the middle of it? I very much doubt it.

To create a state for a faith and then move millions of people from their homes to allow this particular religion to set-up home is always going to antagonise people - how could it not turn people against that particular faith?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Not entirely true - Hamas has many different branches - Political movement - hospitals - charities - religious teachings - and of course Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, its military wing.

A bit like Sinn Fein has a political body and a military wing (IRA) which likes to blow up innocent civilians.

You are of course free to support one and condem the other as you do but not only does that make you a hypocrite that makes you a supporter of terrorism.

I think a debate with you on terrorism and its issues is impossible because you seem to think terrorism is ok as long as its us or groups we support who are commiting the terrorism.

The IRA has disbanded Hamas unlike sinn fein contrary to your assertion is a single entity they have one charter that states quite clearly their intent to destroy Israel and not negotiate.