Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions [title changed] (1 Viewer)

[RightinNYC]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Look, the Gaza strip is where Palestinians live. Most of them work in Israel, in the construction fields. But they are, of course, poor. And every day they travel into Israel, were they see the comparatively very wealthy Israelis, who hang banners like "Leaving settlements Kills Jews". And every night they come home to their dirt poor lodgings.

Now, don't give me some bullshit "well if they just worked harder they'd become wealthy too". Think of them like 1940s black people. you can become a rich athlete, like Jackie robinson/Abbas Suan. But to quote the movie Malcolm X, throwing a bone doesn't cure oppression. It doesn't make real oppotunity. It doesn't cure the 25-30% unemployment rate.

You're actually blaming Israel for the fact that the Palestinian government does a shitty job taking care of their people?

News flash: Israel doesn't owe the Palestinians jobs. If they wanted to, they could close the border and keep them all out.

And frankly, if the Palestinians are angry, why the hell aren't they fixing their own government? Oh, that's right, they're too busy electing Hamas.

 

[Goobieman]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

They really don't. You don't honestly believe that our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan makes us MORE capable of dealing with Iran, do you?

Yes. In almost every way.

There's 130,000 + 20,000 US troops right on Iran's doorstep.
The troops are there, their equipment is there, their logistical support is there, the USAF and naval air operational and logistical assets are there, and we've built up three years of operational/combat experience.

Our guys are there, now, ready to go do whatever we need them to do whenever we need them to do it. That must give at least -some- pause to the people in Iran and Syria, and it creates a long list of options for us.


Specifically, how would we be more capable if those troops were inexperienced, sitting here here at home, needing to be deployed to the area before they could do something?

 

[NYStateofMind]

If the Israeli-Palestinian issue was easy to solve, it would have been solved long ago. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. Both sides have been led by terrorists, so neither has the right to claim the high road in that regard. Both have used tactics to inflame the other, and neither are willing to honestly put everything on the table and work out a real peace deal. Until that happens, there will continue to be violence there.

It's simplistic to say that the Palestinians should just vote for a better government. They had a choice between a government that was corrupt, no longer had Arafat's charisma to rally the people and had been in power for years and was doing nothing for them, and a government that had provided social programs and promised more help for the common Palestinian, although they also vowed to destroy Israel. They really had no good choice, just bad or worse.

The Israelis are between a rock and a hard place, not unlike the Palestinians. They have to defend themselves, but they use such overwhelming force (thanks to the US) that they can't help but appear to be bullies. They can't win in the court of public opinion, but how can they do otherwise? If they don't defend themselves aggressively, they won't be there long.

I wish it was as easy as some here make it out to be, but it is a complex problem and neither side has clean hands.

For those who are advocating jumping into this with our troops that are in Iraq and Afghanistan, I could not disagree more. That would be a huge mistake. Iran would love for us to do that. Combat-hardened? Try combat-weary....our military is already overstretched and we don't need another war to break it. I have no doubt that the military would try valiantly to complete the mission, but it would take a terrible toll. Why do you think Iran is pushing this now? We are in no position to pull troops out of Iraq or Afghanistan right now, it would only risk those regimes collapsing, and all of our efforts there would be wasted. It would be a huge mistake with far-reaching consequences.

 

[Goobieman]

Iran would love for us to do that.

Iran does not want the US military to act against it.

Combat-hardened? Try combat-weary

You;re reading too much anti-war propaganda.
The experience we've gained in Iraq in invaluable, and the troops are in better shape, materially, physically and mentally, than in any war we've ever fought.

....our military is already overstretched and we don't need another war to break it.

I love this. "Overstreched".
We have parts of 3 of 10 army divisions in Iraq.

I have no doubt that the military would try valiantly to complete the mission, but it would take a terrible toll.

When was war ever easy?
What would have happened if your argument, above, would have carried the day when contempating invading France in WW2?

Why do you think Iran is pushing this now?

Maybe they arent as smart as some people think.

We are in no position to pull troops out of Iraq or Afghanistan right now,

That;s the thing.
You dont have to pull troops out of Iraq/Afghanistan to be able to use them in Iran. They can operate FROM Iraq and Afghanistan.

The fact that we have those guys there now is an -incredible- advantage to us.

 

[cherokee]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

You're actually blaming Israel for the fact that the Palestinian government does a shitty job taking care of their people?

News flash: Israel doesn't owe the Palestinians jobs. If they wanted to, they could close the border and keep them all out.

And frankly, if the Palestinians are angry, why the hell aren't they fixing their own government? Oh, that's right, they're too busy electing Hamas.

They’re also too busy brainwashing others to strap on bombs.
I often wonder why you never hear about the leaders wearing the suicide vests...
I guess its because they dont believe in the cause..:roll:


I bet Gunny is busy this AM and yesterday. We still have an Embassy in Lebanon. You would be a fool to think the Hezbollah hasn’t thought about kidnapping staff to use as pawns.

 

[Goobieman]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Anyone have any idea the reason for the Hezboulah attacks from Lebanon?

Israel withdrew from Lebanon completely in 2000. It was so scrupulous in making sure that not one square inch of Lebanon was left inadvertently occupied that it asked the United Nations to verify the exact frontier defining Lebanon's southern border and retreated behind it. This "blue line" was approved by the Security Council, which declared that Israel had fully complied with resolutions demanding its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Whats their gripe?

 

[oldreliable67]

Anyone have any idea the reason for the Hezboulah attacks from Lebanon?

An excellent analysis by Robert Tracinski at RealClearPolitics makes the following points...

After Syrian troops were forced to withdraw from Lebanon last year, the advocates of Lebanese independence began calling for the disarmament of Hezbollah, the Shiite militia in Southern Lebanon that has long served as a Syrian ally and proxy. But, using the "weapon of democracy," Hezbollah has long had a large representation in Lebanon's parliament. This is Hezbollah's bid to become the dominant power in Lebanon, a fact revealed in a Los Angeles Times analysis:

As Lebanon's largest political party and most potent armed force, Hezbollah has long been described as a "state within a state"--a Shiite Muslim minigovernment boasting close ties to Iran and Syria. But Wednesday's move across the border to capture two Israeli soldiers went a step further: Hezbollah acted as the state itself, threatening to drag Lebanon into a war.

The country's elected government was still in meetings Wednesday, arguing over what to say in public, when Hezbollah chief Sheik Hassan Nasrallah went before television cameras with a pointed threat for the ruling elite. "Today is a time for solidarity and cooperation, and we can have discussions later. I warn you against committing any error. This is a national responsibility," the cleric said, looking every inch the head of state.

Any criticism over the capture of the two Israeli soldiers would be tantamount to colluding with Israel, Nasrallah said, making it clear that he expected citizens and officials to heed his orders. "To the Lebanese people, both officials and non-officials, nobody should behave in a way that encourages the enemy to attack Lebanon, and nobody should say anything that gives cover to attack Lebanon," he said.

More important, nearly every Lebanese political faction has paid lip service to an anti-Israel policy. So while they demanded that Hezbollah disarm, they also praised Hezbollah's past battles to "liberate" Southern Lebanon from Israeli occupation. Now, by provoking a new Israeli incursion into Lebanon, Hezbollah seeks to justify its military power. More broadly, this is Hezbollah's bid to become the dominant power in Lebanon

But lets not forget that Hezbollah is nothing more, nothing less than an Iranian tool. As Michael Ledeen put it,

The important thing to keep in mind is that both the Gaza and northern Israel attacks were planned for quite a while, which means that Iran wanted this war, this way. It isn't just a target of opportunity or a sudden impulse; it's part of a strategic decision to expand the war.

Iran has been at war with us all along, because that's what the world's leading terror state does. The scariest thing about this moment is that the Iranians have convinced themselves that they are winning, and we are powerless to reverse the tide. As I reported here several months ago, Khamenei told his top people late last year that the Americans and Israelis are both politically paralyzed. Neither can take decisive action against Iran, neither can sustain prolonged conflict and significant casualties.

Iran has revealed its hand, challenging the US and its allies and openly demonstrating its desire to dominate the Middle East through force and terror. While we have been trying to delay the war with Iran, it has brought the war to us, in a manner so obvious that even the mainstream media cannot evade it.

 

[cherokee]

Good post oldreliable67

The Hezbollah just like Hamas know how to entrench them selves into a society by building schools, running clinics and shelters. All three give them the opportunity to brainwash more and more people into what they and Iran want them to believe.

 

[MSgt]

Have any of you, who have had their heads up their asses, finally starting to see what the Middle East is? Are you finally starting to see that the violence between Palestinians and Israelis are being encouraged by Muslims elsewhere? Are you finally starting to see from all the Muslims on your television sets that the narcotic of choice in the Middle East is "blame?" Are you finally starting to see that it doesn't matter what we or Israel do and that Islam's Radical element are determined to be at war with us? Are you finally through whining about how our military action create terrorists as you completely disregard their root cultures? Are you finally starting to see the difference between bombing a civillian target to kill civillians and bombing a military target and killing civillians in proximity (I wonder how many rocket sites in Israel are located in a families house.)?

Of course, what you haven't heard and certainly will not hear is the implications of Saudi's role. No mention of the billions of dollars spent to fund and build Radical schools across Europe, North America, and Asia. No mention of the silent encouragement of the Saudi elite for war between Palestinians and Israelis to keep their comfortable little diversion for their oppressed masses.

It has long been common knowledge to those individuals who take the time to study this failing region that were a Palestinian government to ever behave with flawless integrity, terrorists would simply stage their operations from Lebanon or elsewhere. Well, here we are, but without the Palestinian integrity. It has also been a long understanding to many that it doesn't matter what the Islamic world achieves. It will never be enough and the blood will continue to flow until this region acknowledges it's own failures, rolls up its sleeves, and faces forward. The key fact that western advocates for the Palestinian cause refuse to recognize is that the terrorism directed toward Israel is only superficially about Palestinian independence (something the Arab world fears anyway). At its core, it is about the old passion for killing Jews.

But, we will not hear this on TV or in a headline, because we aren't interested in such things. We like to see less abstract and more tangible things. We like to fix blames and design our intel on a satellite photo or merely collect our wisdom from a headline. I've said it enough times - until our intelligencia and tjhe average naive American gets off their asses and actually attempts to discover the hearts of men in the Middle East, they will never understand what is going on and how to effectively deal with it.

Consider the overall state of the Arab world...

- It does not produce a single manufactured product of sufficient quality to sell on world markets.
- Arab productivity is the lowest in the world.
- It contains not a single world-class university.
- The once great tradition of Arab science has degenerated into a few research programs of this and that.
- No Arab state is a true democracy (Given American patience and Iraqi determination, we will see one in Iraq).
- No Arab state genuinely respects human rights.
- No Arab state hosts a responsible media.
- No Arab society fully respects the rights of women or minorities.
- No Arab government has ever accepted public responsibility for its own shortcomings (everything is either America's fault or Israel's fault).

Only the simpleton, the truly ignorant, or our enemies would rely so heavily on placing such burdens on American foreign policy or be so blind that they cannot see that the Iraq of tomorrow is there only hope. But, of course, the same simpletons will whine of such things as WMD and President Bush speeches. The Middle East is wracked with failure and to many Radicals the Heavens are falling. A scapegoat will always be in order if they are to continue to control their masses. The Arab world (the vast majority of the oppressed) desperately needs a success story. By Iran's, Syria's, AND Saudi Arabia's determination to destroy Israel or at least keep the are plunged in conflict, they are denying themselves a future worth living for.....

Welcome to the Suicide bomber who kills in the name of "God." Welcome to the self-appointed executioner of "God."

An opinion backed up by a news headline is not wisdom. It is mere ignorance.

 

[cherokee]

Gunny only one thing comes to mind here with your post.

OUT****ING STANDING!

 

[NYStateofMind]

Iran does not want the US military to act against it.

Right, which is why they are pressing the point now, when we are least able to respond militarily.

You;re reading too much anti-war propaganda.
The experience we've gained in Iraq in invaluable, and the troops are in better shape, materially, physically and mentally, than in any war we've ever fought.

And you're reading too many Republican talking points. The generals who have been warning about combat fatigue and the problems with multiple extended tours in combat zones are not saying that behind closed doors. But if you want to just keep buying the propaganda, hey, be my guest.

I love this. "Overstreched".
We have parts of 3 of 10 army divisions in Iraq.

Well, then why not use the divisions that aren't in Iraq and Afghanistan? But that's not what you are advocating, is it? If we have so much excess capacity, why is the National Guard deployed in Iraq? These troops are not all trained and equiped the same either, they are not interchangeable...a detail you are ignoring.

When was war ever easy?
What would have happened if your argument, above, would have carried the day when contempating invading France in WW2?

We are not fighting WW2. We are already fighting two wars with other troops deployed in peacekeeping roles in many other countries.

Maybe they arent as smart as some people think.

And maybe they are smarter than you give them credit for.

That;s the thing.
You dont have to pull troops out of Iraq/Afghanistan to be able to use them in Iran. They can operate FROM Iraq and Afghanistan.

The fact that we have those guys there now is an -incredible- advantage to us.

We barely have enough troops in Iraq to do what needs to be done (some would argue that we need more) and we certainly are not in a position to draw down a large number of troops for duty elsewhere. It's laughable to suggest that they can just go fight in Iran part time and still maintain the necessary presence in Iraq and Afghanistan part time. They are already on their second or third tour there, do you expect to deploy these troops in combat duty indefinitely? I'm not the one saying that they are reaching the breaking point, the generals are. Deploying troops in combat for extended and multiple tours produces combat fatigue, sooner or later. The military commanders are warning the politicians of that already.

Iran is aware of this, that is why they press the point now...when we are least able to respond militarily.

But don't let reality get in your way.

 

[G-Man]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

The Israelis COMPLETELY pulled out of Gaza. They allowed them self-rule...and instead the Palestinians chose anarchy and terrorism. Answer the question: What would you like the Israelis to do?

And if the US was invaded and occupied but we were then given say Florida back you would be happy with this and would advocate no more resistance?

 

[Goobieman]

Right, which is why they are pressing the point now, when we are least able to respond militarily.

There are 150,000 US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, compl;ete with established infrastructure and logistical support, as well as all their equipment.

How are these troops, on Irans doorstep, unable to be used in a military "response" to Iran?

And you're reading too many Republican talking points. The generals who have been warning about combat fatigue and the problems with multiple extended tours in combat zones are not saying that behind closed doors. But if you want to just keep buying the propaganda, hey, be my guest.

Pot, meet kettle.
The troops, given their re-enlistment rates, seem to disagree with you.

Well, then why not use the divisions that aren't in Iraq and Afghanistan?

We can. But the divisions in Iraq and Afghanistan are already deployed, and have all of the necessary assets in place to act against Iran. Why do we need to use those other units?

But that's not what you are advocating, is it? If we have so much excess capacity, why is the National Guard deployed in Iraq?

Because the National Guard is a reserve compoenent of the Army, and when the army deploys for war, it takes the National Guard with it.

These troops are not all trained and equiped the same either, they are not interchangeable...a detail you are ignoring.

Each of those 10 divisions, save for the 2ID, have been trained for duty in Iraq and deoployed there for some period of time. Our regular army divisions --are-- interchangeable.

We are not fighting WW2.

How is that relevant to my comment?
You're arguing that "it will not be easy".
That's not an argument against war, as war is never easy.

We are already fighting two wars with other troops deployed in peacekeeping roles in many other countries.

The point you seem to be missing is that the troops fighting those two wars are in a perfect position for use against Iran, if necessary.

And maybe they are smarter than you give them credit for.

Not likely.

We barely have enough troops in Iraq to do what needs to be done (some would argue that we need more) and we certainly are not in a position to draw down a large number of troops for duty elsewhere.

"Elsewhere' is Iran.
Look at the map. Thats right next door to Iraq, in case you weren't aware.

It's laughable to suggest that they can just go fight in Iran part time and still maintain the necessary presence in Iraq and Afghanistan part time.

Why? Oh wait -- that's the propaganda you've been listening to.
US troop activity in Iraq has been on the decline, and drawdowsn are expected. No reason to believe that a significant number of the troops there cannot be spared for temporary use against Iran.

They are already on their second or third tour there, do you expect to deploy these troops in combat duty indefinitely?

If necessary, yes. That's what soldiers do.

I'm not the one saying that they are reaching the breaking point, the generals are.

And, again, the re-enlistment rates say otherwise.

But don't let reality get in your way.

It seems you and reality have yet to meet.

 

[Joby]

And frankly, if the Palestinians are angry, why the hell aren't they fixing their own government? Oh, that's right, they're too busy electing Hamas.

They did elect hamas to fix the government. The Israeli-supported fatah party is corrupt and cares nothing for the evryday people. Hamas is of the people, and when israel tries to kill the democratically elected party before they even take office of course it will unit the palestinians, some of whom may react in stupidly, from a strategic viewpoint.

Consider the overall state of the Arab world...

- It does not produce a single manufactured product of sufficient quality to sell on world markets.
- Arab productivity is the lowest in the world.
- It contains not a single world-class university.
- The once great tradition of Arab science has degenerated into a few research programs of this and that.
- No Arab state is a true democracy (Given American patience and Iraqi determination, we will see one in Iraq).
- No Arab state genuinely respects human rights.
- No Arab state hosts a responsible media.
- No Arab society fully respects the rights of women or minorities.
- No Arab government has ever accepted public responsibility for its own shortcomings (everything is either America's fault or Israel's fault).

Ditto for Africa and Latin America. It's just that while these place routinely carve themselves up, you don't hear about it because you don't feel it at the pump. Comparing America to the third world is a ridicuous way to make yourself feel superior.

Of course, what you haven't heard and certainly will not hear is the implications of Saudi's role. No mention of the billions of dollars spent to fund and build Radical schools across Europe, North America, and Asia. No mention of the silent encouragement of the Saudi elite for war between Palestinians and Israelis to keep their comfortable little diversion for their oppressed masses.

Lies! Saudi Arabia are our friends! Look at how much Bush likes 'em-and if he does, and the boys at ExxonMobil do, they must be on our side. Same thing with that dictatorship-uh, I mean Transitioning Democracy in Nigeria.

More important, nearly every Lebanese political faction has paid lip service to an anti-Israel policy. So while they demanded that Hezbollah disarm, they also praised Hezbollah's past battles to "liberate" Southern Lebanon from Israeli occupation. Now, by provoking a new Israeli incursion into Lebanon, Hezbollah seeks to justify its military power. More broadly, this is Hezbollah's bid to become the dominant power in Lebanon

Look at Lebanons history. If you were Lebanese, trust me, you would do everything in your power to avoid another never ending civil war.

 

[teacher]

. By Iran's, Syria's, AND Saudi Arabia's determination to destroy Israel

If they destroyed Israel who would they then blame?

or at least keep the are plunged in conflict,

Nevermind.

 

[jujuman13]

Sorry, I neglected to state where this piece originated.
An Andrew Sullivan Blog in the "Daily Dish" accessed through "Time Magazine"

quote:
The War
14 Jul 2006 11:05 am



Tom Friedman has the best analysis I've yet read of what's going on in the Middle East. He's protected from a general readership by his bosses, so I'll paraphrase his argument. It's no accident that extreme violence is occurring in Lebanon, the Palestinian territories and Iraq right now. Why? They're the three Arab countries with democracies, and the Islamist factions in their elected governments, having seized a sliver of power through the ballot-box, are now using it to radicalize the Arab "street", foment sectarian violence (in some cases to create the chaos that helps Islamo-fascists seize dictatorial power), and to polarize the region still further. Other democratic factions have to cope with the terror these various militias and terror groups - the Mahdi army, Hamas, Hezbollah, and others - unleash. It's tough. And Arab culture is far more accustomed to stand-offs, fatwas and street warfare than compromise, dialog and parliamentary accountability.

Does this invalidate the attempt to bring democracy there? I'd say not. What's the alternative? To prop up autocrats that repress those forces and intensify Islamist ressentiment? Or to give it space to breathe and encourage other Arabs to control it by democratic institutions? The problem, of course, is timing. How do you keep the democratic governments on life-support, while they are being murdered and attacked and revealed as unable to maintain order, as in Baghdad? I'd argue that it's in Israel's long-term interest to refrain from polarizing the region more than necessary for its self-defense, and in the West's interest to provide as much guidance, support and help for the fledgling, moderate democratic governments involved (and that, of course, excludes Hamas).

In Iraq, the key, if we are not to despair, is obviously the capacity of the Iraqi national army to fight back against sectarian mayhem and establish the authority that only imposing order can achieve. The U.S. forces can help with this - and we are criminally negligent for allowing the violence to spiral out of control. In a few places, we're succeeding. But the key is not just more U.S. troops - though we need many more - but the embedding of the best U.S. commanders with Iraqi units in an ambitious and sustained attempt to train the forces of democracy and moderation to fight back. Right now, I'm told that these jobs are not in favor, that they do not bring prestige within military culture, that our best soldiers are not devoted to that critical effort. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this judgment independently - but I have been told it by multiple credible sources. If we are not to surrender to forces that will not stop at destroying their own region, we have no choice but to engage with greater levels of commitment and guidance.

Democracy is being strangled in its cradle. We are the midwife. It's time to get serious.

(Photo: Ramzi Haidar/AFP/Getty.)

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_________________________________________________________________

Remember Masada!

 

[cherokee]

If they destroyed Israel who would they then blame?
Nevermind.

They would just blame us or maybe the Swiss....:mrgreen:

 

[mpg]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

And if the US was invaded and occupied but we were then given say Florida back you would be happy with this and would advocate no more resistance?

Why do you ask?

 

[talloulou]

Gunny only one thing comes to mind here with your post.

OUT****ING STANDING!

Yep he knows his stuff. Even impresses my husband with his posts.

 

[Joby]

Sorry, I neglected to state where this piece originated.
An Andrew Sullivan Blog in the "Daily Dish" accessed through "Time Magazine"

quote:
The War
14 Jul 2006 11:05 am



Tom Friedman has the best analysis I've yet read of what's going on in the Middle East. He's protected from a general readership by his bosses, so I'll paraphrase his argument. It's no accident that extreme violence is occurring in Lebanon, the Palestinian territories and Iraq right now. Why? They're the three Arab countries with democracies, and the Islamist factions in their elected governments, having seized a sliver of power through the ballot-box, are now using it to radicalize the Arab "street", foment sectarian violence (in some cases to create the chaos that helps Islamo-fascists seize dictatorial power), and to polarize the region still further. Other democratic factions have to cope with the terror these various militias and terror groups - the Mahdi army, Hamas, Hezbollah, and others - unleash. It's tough. And Arab culture is far more accustomed to stand-offs, fatwas and street warfare than compromise, dialog and parliamentary accountability.

Does this invalidate the attempt to bring democracy there? I'd say not. What's the alternative? To prop up autocrats that repress those forces and intensify Islamist ressentiment? Or to give it space to breathe and encourage other Arabs to control it by democratic institutions? The problem, of course, is timing. How do you keep the democratic governments on life-support, while they are being murdered and attacked and revealed as unable to maintain order, as in Baghdad? I'd argue that it's in Israel's long-term interest to refrain from polarizing the region more than necessary for its self-defense, and in the West's interest to provide as much guidance, support and help for the fledgling, moderate democratic governments involved (and that, of course, excludes Hamas).

In Iraq, the key, if we are not to despair, is obviously the capacity of the Iraqi national army to fight back against sectarian mayhem and establish the authority that only imposing order can achieve. The U.S. forces can help with this - and we are criminally negligent for allowing the violence to spiral out of control. In a few places, we're succeeding. But the key is not just more U.S. troops - though we need many more - but the embedding of the best U.S. commanders with Iraqi units in an ambitious and sustained attempt to train the forces of democracy and moderation to fight back. Right now, I'm told that these jobs are not in favor, that they do not bring prestige within military culture, that our best soldiers are not devoted to that critical effort. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this judgment independently - but I have been told it by multiple credible sources. If we are not to surrender to forces that will not stop at destroying their own region, we have no choice but to engage with greater levels of commitment and guidance.

Democracy is being strangled in its cradle. We are the midwife. It's time to get serious.

(Photo: Ramzi Haidar/AFP/Getty.)

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Thomas Friedman has by far the best analysis on Lebanon and the Middle East I have ever read. period. go to the library and check out From Beirut to Jeruslalem now if you haven't read it. Just look at the Title. it applies now more than ever.

 

[talloulou]

I read a book awhile back called Sleeping with the Devil which was pretty good at explaining the problems inherent in the US/Saudi relationship. I honestly don't feel it would matter who was in charge in the White House...dems vs rep....the Middle East and our reliance on oil is just a mess any which way you look at it.

 

[Kandahar]

Have any of you, who have had their heads up their asses, finally starting to see what the Middle East is? Are you finally starting to see that the violence between Palestinians and Israelis are being encouraged by Muslims elsewhere? Are you finally starting to see from all the Muslims on your television sets that the narcotic of choice in the Middle East is "blame?" Are you finally starting to see that it doesn't matter what we or Israel do and that Islam's Radical element are determined to be at war with us? Are you finally through whining about how our military action create terrorists as you completely disregard their root cultures? Are you finally starting to see the difference between bombing a civillian target to kill civillians and bombing a military target and killing civillians in proximity (I wonder how many rocket sites in Israel are located in a families house.)?

Excellent post. I'm ashamed to say that I actually held out hope that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza would end terror attacks from Gaza, and I even thought Clinton's negotiations with Arafat in 2000 could be successful. But you're absolutely right. The Arabs simply do not want peace no matter what Israel or the United States does, and I think that's abundantly clear now to anyone who doesn't have a knee-jerk hatred for Israel.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

And if the US was invaded and occupied but we were then given say Florida back you would be happy with this and would advocate no more resistance?

If Florida had traditionally been a separate entity from the rest of the United States, I would expect the Floridians to stop fighting once they got their freedom.

If the Gaza Strip and the West Bank want to form a united "Palestine," that's fine, but let's not pretend that the West Bankers feel any kinship with the Gazans or vice versa and that they're actually interested in fighting for each other's freedom.

Israel made the ultimate concession to Gaza, yet Gaza continued to wage war on Israel. Same with Lebanon.

 

[teacher]

Excellent post. I'm ashamed to say that I actually held out hope that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza would end terror attacks from Gaza, and I even thought Clinton's negotiations with Arafat in 2000 could be successful.

At least you admit it.

But you're absolutely right. The Arabs simply do not want peace no matter what Israel or the United States does, and I think that's abundantly clear now to anyone who doesn't have a knee-jerk hatred for Israel.

So was it the 1000th or 1001st suicide bombing that changed your mind?

Now? Now? Amazing. Absolutely amazing. What's different now than before?

Now take your new found awareness and apply it to the mentality that flew planes into buildings. This bullshit will only end when the root of Arab anger, (oppresion by their own), is ended and they have lived in freedom with access to the freeflow of information for generations. But in reality, the real undiscussed solution is to FREE THE WOMEN.

And hell yea, Thomas Friedman is a mental stud.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

And if the US was invaded and occupied but we were then given say Florida back you would be happy with this and would advocate no more resistance?

I'm not likely to give a **** because you Palestinian ****ers killed RFK and I wouldn't mind seeing you all dead ... how bout that?

You ****ed with the Irish on this one pal and you killed one of the best of us and now you're going to pay.

How dare you mother****ers not even 10,000 of you is worth one RFK may you all rot in hell.


And do you think terrorism scares me? **** no we've been at it since 1916 and we were up against an empire and not some half a country like Israel and we won so **** you it's on!!!