Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions [title changed]

superskippy · Jul 12, 2006

After the Hizbollah attack that killed around 7 soldiers wounded many more and captured 2 others Olmert has declared this action an 'Act of War' and has deployed IDF armor and motorized troops and they have pushed into Lebanon. Reservists have been called up and thousands are moving to the border.

If Lebanon and it's forces no matter how disjointed decide to support Hizbollah in the fighting this could be the beginning of the 7th campaign of the IDF outside of the territories in our history(1948, 1956, 1967, 1970, 1973, 1982, and now possibly 2006?). I dont think I'll be called up I'm college with plans to travel abroad shortly and I just left active service a few months ago I doubt I'm in mind, though between Gaza and Lebanon and the West Bank one never knows.

This is very searous business I was extremely surprised there was no thread on this in the Breaking News section.

Here is a CNN link feel free to observe any other website for information. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html

cherokee · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

superskippy said:
After the Hizbollah attack that killed around 7 soldiers wounded many more and captured 2 others Olmert has declared this action an 'Act of War' and has deployed IDF armor and motorized troops and they have pushed into Lebanon. Reservists have been called up and thousands are moving to the border.

If Lebanon and it's forces no matter how disjointed decide to support Hizbollah in the fighting this could be the beginning of the 7th campaign of the IDF outside of the territories in our history(1948, 1956, 1967, 1970, 1973, 1982, and now possibly 2006?). I dont think I'll be called up I'm college with plans to travel abroad shortly and I just left active service a few months ago I doubt I'm in mind, though between Gaza and Lebanon and the West Bank one never knows.

This is very searous business I was extremely surprised there was no thread on this in the Breaking News section.

Here is a CNN link feel free to observe any other website for information. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html

To fight/kill the Hizbollah I'll take your place...

Gardener · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Here is the game plan.

The Nazi Islamists do whatever they d@mn well please.

Israel reacts.

Islamist propagandists go into high gear, from the Muslim brotherhood in Germany and England to the Nazi supporters like the ISM and ANSWER as Israel's reaction is cast as if in a complete vacuum devoid of context. Utilizing time honored demagoguery, perpetrator is cast as victim, as language is carefully crafted to appeal to people's natural affinity for the victim -- Israel is practicing "Apartheied" and they aer "colonialists", while the terrorists are "Indiginous peopels" and they are "oppressed", etc.

European news agencies seize upon the watered down version of the rhetorec careful to not offend the source of their oil and in accordance with the Europe-Arab dialogue, and so carefully select news so as to embellish this inverted relationship between perpetrator and target. They only show the Israeli tanks while completely whitewashing the terrorist acts and show the reaction while minimizing the original action (it's much like the school yard monitor who fails to notice the bully sucker-punching the kid he's picking on and only notices when the kid strikes back), and so pretty soon, even MORE support is created for the terrorists.

They know this. Their actions can be barbarous as long as their words are unctuous and it's a game they play very well. They have the numerical superiority if not the military and are winning the war of rhetorec even if they cannot win the physical war. THe world loves them the more Nazi like they become and until the world learns to see through their specious garbage, it will only get worse.

Just wait. Israel will roll into Lebanon, the world press will be wringing its hands about the plight of the poor, innocent victims of Isaeli aggression, and from the standpoint of their position in the world, Israel will be worse of than before.

That's the plan and they have been following it well.

superskippy · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Just wait. Israel will roll into Lebanon, the world press will be wringing its hands about the plight of the poor, innocent victims of Isaeli aggression, and from the standpoint of their position in the world, Israel will be worse of than before.

And for once perhaps we should just ignore them outright and stay the course without influence.

Lazel · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

What I dont seem to understand is that if Hezbollah and Palestine truly wanted peace, why would they take 2 more soldiers? They should know very well that Israel doesnt mess around with Terrorists they arent going to be willing to release 9,000 prisoners.

RightinNYC · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

This was probably the dumbest thing that Hezbollah could have done.

Short of acquiring a nuke and setting it off by accident in their own country.

Trajan Octavian Titus · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

I'm a supporter of Israel, however, a full scale invasion of Lebanon and another sacking of Beirut could have regional (and possibley global) implications.

Then again the Lebanese should have never elected Hezbollah into parliament.

superskippy · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

I dont think it will get that far Trajan, but one never knows just how Lebanon will react and take to the field.

Joby · Jul 12, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

When Israel invaded in the 1980s to get rid of Palestinian terror strongholds there, they had a very victorious entry then got bogged down for years. Lebanon geographically is like the "Switzerland of the Middle East", and could allow a guerilla movement to thrive.

Apparently, Hezbullah only controls the south, so Israel may not need to take Beirut. However, if Lebanon figts back-as a nation- and Israel does need to move in, it could get ugly.

Druze, Sunni, Shia, Maronites, Phalangalist, and a few Palestinians, all distrusting each other and hating Israel more. the Lebanese civil war lasted 20 years, and was extremely bloody. I just hope it doesn't revert back to that, cause even the US couldn't control a situation that crazy.

http://www.liberty05.com/civilwar/civil3.html

And you thought Iraq was a delicate ethnic makeup...

RightinNYC · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Joby said:
When Israel invaded in the 1980s to get rid of Palestinian terror strongholds there, they had a very victorious entry then got bogged down for years. Lebanon geographically is like the "Switzerland of the Middle East", and could allow a guerilla movement to thrive.

Apparently, Hezbullah only controls the south, so Israel may not need to take Beirut. However, if Lebanon figts back-as a nation- and Israel does need to move in, it could get ugly.

Druze, Sunni, Shia, Maronites, Phalangalist, and a few Palestinians, all distrusting each other and hating Israel more. the Lebanese civil war lasted 20 years, and was extremely bloody. I just hope it doesn't revert back to that, cause even the US couldn't control a situation that crazy.

http://www.liberty05.com/civilwar/civil3.html

And you thought Iraq was a delicate ethnic makeup...

I think Israel's learned a lesson from that, and from Iraq/Vietnam/etc...

I don't think they're going to try to occupy. It seems to me like they're going to try to get their soldiers back, and depending on how that turns out, either leave with them, or bomb the living **** out of Lebanon and then leave it in rubble.

I dont think they have any interest in anything more than returning the soldiers and punishing those responsible.

Israel's Army Chief of Staff Lieutenant - General Dan Halutz warned Beirut that Israel will attack Lebanon's infrastructure and "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years" if the two soldiers were not returned.

Seems like they've learned a smart lesson - if they're going to do **** like this, why bother helping rebuild/trying to occupy?

jujuman13 · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Quote:
Then again the Lebanese should have never elected Hezbollah into parliament.

Let me correct your misinterpretation.
Hezbollah have some representation in the Lebanese Parliament.
They are not the Lebanese Government.
The Lebanese government has been attempting to disarm Hezbollah ever since the last general election, albeit with Little success, with this incursion by the IDF they can kiss goodbye any chance of that succeeding.

Hamas was elected as the government of Palestine.
Now having got that straight what gives anyone the idea that America is able to control it's own government let alone any other country's government.
Iraq is a total mess on the brink of civil war.
Afghanistan is a total mess with the Taliban regrouping and having a greater appeal to the population than that of the deeply unpopular puppet government installed there by Bush & his crony's.
The USA is under the total financial control of Russia, China, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia.
We have indebted ourselves to these country's to such an extent that our external trade debt as well as government debt owed these nations cannot be repaid.
The USA is not merely sliding but more as though we are galloping into a financial state of affairs that if any one of these country's decided to pull the financial plug, our country will go into the deepest recession we have ever experienced.
And that will cause the entire planet to go the same way, perhaps that is all that is stopping someone like Chavez from pulling the plug on USA.
However what he is going to do, is to cease selling gas direct in his Venezuelan owned "Citgo" gas stations he will also in all probability sell off any refineries he has in the USA.

RightinNYC · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

jujuman13 said:
Quote:
Then again the Lebanese should have never elected Hezbollah into parliament.

Let me correct your misinterpretation.
Hezbollah have some representation in the Lebanese Parliament.
They are not the Lebanese Government.
The Lebanese government has been attempting to disarm Hezbollah ever since the last general election, albeit with Little success, with this incursion by the IDF they can kiss goodbye any chance of that succeeding.

Hamas was elected as the government of Palestine.
Now having got that straight what gives anyone the idea that America is able to control it's own government let alone any other country's government.
Iraq is a total mess on the brink of civil war.
Afghanistan is a total mess with the Taliban regrouping and having a greater appeal to the population than that of the deeply unpopular puppet government installed there by Bush & his crony's.
The USA is under the total financial control of Russia, China, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia.
We have indebted ourselves to these country's to such an extent that our external trade debt as well as government debt owed these nations cannot be repaid.
The USA is not merely sliding but more as though we are galloping into a financial state of affairs that if any one of these country's decided to pull the financial plug, our country will go into the deepest recession we have ever experienced.
And that will cause the entire planet to go the same way, perhaps that is all that is stopping someone like Chavez from pulling the plug on USA.
However what he is going to do, is to cease selling gas direct in his Venezuelan owned "Citgo" gas stations he will also in all probability sell off any refineries he has in the USA.

This has nothing to do with the US, your entire post is nothing but a rambling diatribe.

Good day, sir.

Sir_Alec · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

This pointless war continues? Has anyone even considered that Israel is starting to take out the ask questions later part of 'shoot first and ask questions later'. I'm getting sick of both sides being so ****ing self-rightous. Ok, first of all Isreal, stop acting like you didn't take this land from these people. Next, Isreal, stop oppressing the people your occupying. Next, terrorists and etc., stop making Isael mad because we know what happens when you make the beast mad. IT BITES!

Bullets · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

jujuman13 said:
Quote:
Then again the Lebanese should have never elected Hezbollah into parliament.

Let me correct your misinterpretation.
Hezbollah have some representation in the Lebanese Parliament.
They are not the Lebanese Government.
The Lebanese government has been attempting to disarm Hezbollah ever since the last general election, albeit with Little success, with this incursion by the IDF they can kiss goodbye any chance of that succeeding.

Hamas was elected as the government of Palestine.
Now having got that straight what gives anyone the idea that America is able to control it's own government let alone any other country's government.
Iraq is a total mess on the brink of civil war.
Afghanistan is a total mess with the Taliban regrouping and having a greater appeal to the population than that of the deeply unpopular puppet government installed there by Bush & his crony's.
The USA is under the total financial control of Russia, China, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia.
We have indebted ourselves to these country's to such an extent that our external trade debt as well as government debt owed these nations cannot be repaid.
The USA is not merely sliding but more as though we are galloping into a financial state of affairs that if any one of these country's decided to pull the financial plug, our country will go into the deepest recession we have ever experienced.
And that will cause the entire planet to go the same way, perhaps that is all that is stopping someone like Chavez from pulling the plug on USA.
However what he is going to do, is to cease selling gas direct in his Venezuelan owned "Citgo" gas stations he will also in all probability sell off any refineries he has in the USA.

in an attempt to respond to some your points.

When ever the US shuts down its trade, China experiances a MASSIVE resececion. I hardly call that controling.

Stop readin the NYT, civil war is not as imminent in Iraq as the left would have you believe.

The debt we owe to foreign contries exists, but we have never had plans to pay it off, everyone owes everyone money. If russia asked for all its money back, we would say fine, but we want the money we invested in help you out after the collapse of the SU. It goes both ways.

Joby · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

People enjoy freaking out over China giving us loans. Don't get me wrong, I'd like our nation to be debt-free, but China would be retarded to dump the dollar. The make a large percentage of their money of of exports, and a huge amount of their food is imported from the US. China wants the US to do well financially.

As for the Lebann question, Israel is doing an excellent job ******* anothe young generation off at themselves and the US. Maybe even more than Iraq is. bravo!

Kandahar · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Sir_Alec said:
This pointless war continues? Has anyone even considered that Israel is starting to take out the ask questions later part of 'shoot first and ask questions later'. I'm getting sick of both sides being so ****ing self-rightous. Ok, first of all Isreal, stop acting like you didn't take this land from these people. Next, Isreal, stop oppressing the people your occupying. Next, terrorists and etc., stop making Isael mad because we know what happens when you make the beast mad. IT BITES!

First of all, Israel isn't oppressing them. Arabs living in Israel and/or under Israeli occupation have more freedom than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East.

Second of all, I really hope that your "stop making the beast mad" comment isn't meant to imply that Arabs only need to stop blowing **** up for their own strategic reasons, and Israel is just prone to overreaction. Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, but did the Palestinian attacks stop? No.

Why is it that terrorism in every other country is condemned, but when it happens to Israel, the prevailing attitude seems to be that they deserve what they get? Israel is completely justified in taking military action against countries that have attacked them.

If these were isolated acts of terror commited by non-governmental groups, I would agree that they should not be treated as a military situation (India's calmness this week is commendable). But Israel faces these kind of attacks on a regular basis, and the attacks are being sponsored by foreign governments. That is an act of war by any definition.

Kandahar · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Joby said:
As for the Lebann question, Israel is doing an excellent job ******* anothe young generation off at themselves and the US. Maybe even more than Iraq is. bravo!

And what would you like them to do? Just ignore the routine terrorist attacks and kidnappings? Or do you think that Israel needs to make some concessions for peace? I forget...how did that work out when they tried it in Gaza?

PeteEU · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

And Isreal is not provoking anything and is a sweet little angel and the total innocent party in this conflict..

Trajan Octavian Titus · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

jujuman13 said:
Quote:
Then again the Lebanese should have never elected Hezbollah into parliament.

Let me correct your misinterpretation.
Hezbollah have some representation in the Lebanese Parliament.
They are not the Lebanese Government.
.

I already know this they hold like 10 seats which would be ten to many.

But further to the point Hezbollah is bought and paid for by Demascus and Tehran.

oldreliable67 · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

jujuman13 said:
However what he is going to do, is to cease selling gas direct in his Venezuelan owned "Citgo" gas stations he will also in all probability sell off any refineries he has in the USA.

This is off the topic, but this assertion needs to be addressed.

Not quite correct. Citgo stations (about 1,800) in areas not served by refineries (Montana, Idaho, and a few others) have been purchasing the gasoline they sell from other refiners in their areas, rather than incur the transportation costs necessary to bring Citgo-refined gasoline to them from the more-distant Citgo refineries. The decision that has been announced is that these stations will cease selling gasoline because it is being purchased from others. These stations will most likely be sold to other retailers.

Will Chavez sell off any of its USA Citgo refineries? One: if he does, there are lots of buyer that would love to have them. At the present time, refinery operating margins are at all time highs, imparting more value to them than in many years. Two: it would be cutting off the proverbial nose to spite the proverbial face - that crude has to be sold somewhere and we are the cheapest transportation destination for their product. Selling the refineries doesn't mean cutting off the importation of crude. Those refineries will still be operation, even if owned by someone else.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

oldreliable67 · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Do we not see the guiding hand of Iran in the current ME imbrogio?

Can this be the beginning of the war on Iran?

David Twersky, writing in the New York Sun, made these obervations:

Last Friday, Ahmadinejad warned that Israel's return to Gaza could lead to an "explosion" in the Islamic world that would target Israel and its supporters in the West. "They should not let things reach a point where an explosion occurs in the Islamic world," he said.

"If an explosion occurs, then it won't be limited to geographical boundaries. It will also burn all those who created [Israel] over the past 60 years," he said, implicitly referring to America and other Western nations who support Israel.

Israel is fighting two Iranian proxies on two fronts. It may, or may not, open a third front against a third Iranian proxy, Syria. It is from the Syrian capital that Khaled Meshaal, the exiled leader of Hamas, has been laying down Palestinian Arab negotiating conditions. Why listen to Mr. Meshaal? Because the Hamas troops are loyal to him, rather than to their erstwhile leader, Prime Minister Ismail Haniyah, let alone the increasingly (as if that were possible) hapless Palestinian Arab leader, Mahmoud Abbas.

Even more loyal to Tehran is the Hezbollah leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, whose forces yesterday kidnapped two more Israeli soldiers, opening up the second front. Sheik Nasrallah is warning Israelis that they must not think Lebanon is unprotected as it was in 1981 and 1982 when Israeli forces came pouring across the border to silence Palestinian Arab guns. Sheik Nasrallah's men are the recipients of tens of thousands of rockets — longer range and presumably more deadly than their roughly engineered younger Kassam cousins — that put central Israel in their range.

Each one of these players — Hamas inside Gaza and in Damascus, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the Assad dictatorship in Syria — are chess pieces on the Iranian board. The pawn moves, drawing in the Israeli bishop; the Lebanese rook challenges; the Syrian queen is in reserve.

So here is the deal, summed up by a Powerline contributor:

Iran is getting very close to possessing nuclear weapons, and...

1. Iran is a patron and has some level of control over Hamas.

2. Iran has a close patron relationship with Hezbollah.

3. Iran is a patron and supporter of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

4. Iran supports and/or controls some of the Shiite insurgents in Iraq.

5. North Korea is one of Iran's few friends and allies.

6. Hamas and Hezbollah know that Israel must militarily react to the recent kidnaps and attacks and that their actions will ignite, at a minimum, a low level military conflict/incursion by Israel into the Gaza and Lebanon.

7. Any military action by Israel will naturally to draw knee-jerk and harsh international criticism of Israel, regardless of the acts of the provoking parties.

8. In spite of its embarrassing missile fizzle, North Korea knows that its July 4th stunt is extremely provocative to the United States.

9. Higher gas prices (created in large part by the actions of Iran) have the American public and economy concerned.

10. Constant low level violence in Iraq, and the eager air play given such violence in the American MSM, have created an anti-war mood in the U.S.

11. Hezbollah's, Hamas's and North Korea's provocations have all occurred within a week of the date that the Iran situation is referred to the Security Council for what will likely be further endless hand wringing and inaction by that feckless organization.

So here is my observation/theory — Iran has orchestrated much (if not all) of the current unrest and violence in order to: (i) distract attention from its nuclear weapons program, (ii) tie down Israel militarily in order to reduce the chances that Israel could unilaterally (or in combination with the U.S.) launch a preemptive strike on Iran's nuclear facilities, (iii) scare the American public (and politicians) into rejecting any unilateral military option against Iran for fear of further inflaming the Mideast (e.g., "Geez, we've already got huge issues in North Korea, Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan, we can't possibly afford any further foreign entanglements" or "We better not do anything to Iran, we might further inflame the Mideast, threaten our oil supply and the U.S. economy" (Lord knows we don't want to pay $%/gallon for our SUV's)), and (iv) create world furor against Israel (and indirectly the U.S.), to further raise the stakes and international opposition to any unilateral military strikes.
12. Only two countries have the military will (maybe) and capability (probably) to possibly stop Iran from moving forward with its nuclear program — Israel and the U.S.

Its hard not to see the Iranian hand guiding all these pieces on the ME chessboard.

Goobieman · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

Sir_Alec said:
This pointless war continues? Has anyone even considered that Israel is starting to take out the ask questions later part of 'shoot first and ask questions later'.

Given their adversaries, what choice do they have?

I'm getting sick of both sides being so ****ing self-rightous.

And yet, below, you only complain about Israel.

Ok, first of all Isreal, stop acting like you didn't take this land from these people.

What land was stolen, and from what people? Israel has been accused of stealing so much landm its hard to keep track of who means what.

Next, Isreal, stop oppressing the people your occupying.

OK - and who are they occupying? See above.

Next, terrorists and etc., stop making Isael mad because we know what happens when you make the beast mad. IT BITES!

The beast?

Goobieman · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

PeteEU said:
And Isreal is not provoking anything and is a sweet little angel and the total innocent party in this conflict..

If by "provoke" you mean "react to actions by those trying to destoy her", then you're right - Israel has been very provocative.

But, you're carring a very strange definittion of "provoke".

Kelzie · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

oldreliable67 said:
Do we not see the guiding hand of Iran in the current ME imbrogio?

Can this be the beginning of the war on Iran?

David Twersky, writing in the New York Sun, made these obervations:

So here is the deal, summed up by a Powerline contributor:

Iran is getting very close to possessing nuclear weapons, and...

Its hard not to see the Iranian hand guiding all these pieces on the ME chessboard.

Good post oldreliable, thanks for sharing those articles. A little creepy, a little disturbing, but good information.

Kandahar · Jul 13, 2006

Re: IDF pushes into Lebanon

PeteEU said:
And Isreal is not provoking anything and is a sweet little angel and the total innocent party in this conflict..

Yep, basically. Defending themselves is not a provocation. They completely withdrew from Gaza and the terror attacks from Gaza continued.

Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions [title changed]

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