Israel attacks Jenin in biggest West Bank incursion in 20 years

[Tigerace117]

Ah I see the great logic of the Russian Tigerace117. We have to assume all people that the military defends against and targets are civilians unless proven otherwise.
Well that's not how it works outside of Putin's realm I'm afraid. Welcome to the real world comrade.

And apocalypse just keeps proving me right

Unfortunately for you, no amount of demonstrating that you see the Palestinians as subhuman and wailing “but Putin” changes the facts.

 

[Apocalypse]

It’s a fact that you are getting very desperate, frantically attempting to equate this to Ukraine because Americans aren’t giving Israel a blank check to butcher Palestinians anymore.

Why are you dodging?
Do you expect people to believe it's a coincidence that supporting Russia crimes comes with supporting Palestinian terrorists for you lot?
Why do you get angry by being confronted with this "coincidence"? I thought you're proud of your opinions, you almost sound ashamed.

 

[Apocalypse]

And apocalypse just keeps proving me right

Unfortunately for you, no amount of demonstrating that you see the Palestinians as subhuman and wailing “but Putin” changes the facts.

I told you the first lesson is free.
Now everyone knows what logic (or lack of) you base your views on.

 

[Tigerace117]

Why are you dodging?
Do you expect people to believe it's a coincidence that supporting Russia crimes comes with supporting Palestinian terrorists for you lot?
Why do you get angry by being confronted with this "coincidence"? I thought you're proud of your opinions, you almost sound ashamed.

I’m not dodging anything. I’m pointing out your desperation.

It’s okay bud, we know you and Bibi are terrified. Visions of what happened to Israel’s bestie apartheid South Africa just keep flashing through your head with every American who calls out Israel’s actions.

 

[Tigerace117]

I told you the first lesson is free.
Now everyone knows what logic (or lack of) you base your views on.

Everyone can clearly see that you simply refuse to condemn the slaughter of Palestinian civilians, yes.

 

[Apocalypse]

I’m not dodging anything. I’m pointing out your desperation.

It’s okay bud, we know you and Bibi are terrified. Visions of what happened to Israel’s bestie apartheid South Africa just keep flashing through your head with every American who calls out Israel’s actions.

You're dodging and you sound ashamed of your views. You support Palestinian terrorists and you support Russian murder of Ukrainians. Yet you refuse to admit that these two positions often comes together. You realize you're morally inferior and you're ashamed.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

If you truly think Hamas, Hezbollah, and all the other terrorist groups are the victims and the IDF is the bad guys, I can't take you seriously. Debate is about much more then selectively googling web sites to support your point of view.

If I think that quote where I said they are the good guys. Do it. If you are so honest

Have you realized yet that it is in fact you who are being dishonest and are misrepresenting my position, or are you still desperately combing through my thousands of posts hoping to find something that isn’t there?

 

[Tigerace117]

You're dodging and you sound ashamed of your views. You support Palestinian terrorists and you support Russian murder of Ukrainians. Yet you refuse to admit that these two positions often comes together. You realize you're morally inferior and you're ashamed.

You are projecting again. We get it, you are desperate on every level and can’t comprehend why Americans are calling out Israel’s butchery of Palestinian civilians.

 

[Apocalypse]

You are projecting again. We get it, you are desperate on every level and can’t comprehend why Americans are calling out Israel’s butchery of Palestinian civilians.

Hah. Just because you pretend to be from Chicago doesn't make you the voice of America comrade.
And your refusal to admit that your support for both Russian and Palestinian terrorists is no coincidence means you are ashamed of your views and you have to live with that, that's a victory in my book.

 

[Tigerace117]

Hah. Just because you pretend to be from Chicago doesn't make you the voice of America comrade.
And your refusal to admit that your support for both Russian and Palestinian terrorists is no coincidence means you are ashamed of your views and you have to live with that, that's a victory in my book.

Hah. Every time I think you can’t get more desperate you somehow manage it.

I’m more ashamed of the fact we haven’t started sanctioning Israel yet personally

 

[Apocalypse]

Hah. Every time I think you can’t get more desperate you somehow manage it.

I’m more ashamed of the fact we haven’t started sanctioning Israel yet personally

With all the sanctions applied on your motherland you're really one to talk about sanctions?
Stay away from moral discussions in general and do yourself a favor.

 

[weaver2]

Ah, I see they are looking to expand their territory again.

When fighting breaks out against the Palestinians always look for the land and/or water resources of the region. Jenin is controlled by Palestinians the soil is the richest in Israel and the highly productive Mountain Aquifer underlies the region.

 

[NatMorton]

I agree, but one side is an organized state and the other side that is launching attacks is a terrorist group. I'm going to hold the democratic state to a higher standard. They are the ones with the power to end things. Hamas wouldn't be able to get fighters if Israel didn't behave the way they do.

My take for sometime is that Israel would leave alone if left alone. I don't think that can be said of Hamas and their crew.

 

[NatMorton]

When these threads turn into Israel-bashing I always try to make an effort to remind folks what Israel is up against.

While no nation or political movement is perfect, you get a sense of at least their ideals from their founding documents. Think of the US Constitution's Preamble, "We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, ..."

Now let's look at what Hamas aspires to be. These are passages taken directly from their founding document, The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement written in 1988:

• Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. (Preamble)
• The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. (Article 6)
• The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him. (Article 7)
• [Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. (Article 13)
• Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be. (Article 13)
• The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. (Article 15)

While calling on the rocks and trees to aid in the killing of Jews is certainly nuts, it does speak to a frame of mind that is unlikely to ever be interested in compromise or peace. This is the unhinged voice of hate and of conquest, and we should never forget that.

 

[Tigerace117]

With all the sanctions applied on your motherland you're really one to talk about sanctions?
Stay away from moral discussions in general and do yourself a favor.

We’ve already established you’ve got no room to talk about “morality” with your desperate attempts to excuse the slaughter of Palestinian civilians.

 

[coyote505]

And many Israels have said the only solution is for Palestinians to disappear. That doesn't make either statement correct.

But it does make it near inevitable that this conflict will continue until the end of time.

 

[MTAtech]

Israel is doing everything it can to make it really hard to continue supporting them.

Maybe what they did is in self-defense? Reports are that militants were storing weapons and bombs inside a mosque, operating next to a United Nations building. They were also building tunnels to carry out attacks. It sounds reasonable to me for Israel to do whatever it can to halt that and easy to support.

​

 

[Jezcoe]

Maybe what they did is in self-defense? Reports are that militants were storing weapons and bombs inside a mosque, operating next to a United Nations building. They were also building tunnels to carry out attacks. It sounds reasonable to me for Israel to do whatever it can to halt that and easy to support.

​

All I am saying that with the rightward lurch that Israel has taken, the apartheid state that they have installed, the open air prison that they control, and the ****ery that they employ in the settlements that it is getting harder to support their government.

That’s all.

 

[dcsports]

Israel attacks Jenin in biggest West Bank incursion in 20 years

At least eight Palestinians killed and dozens injured as major Israeli offensive targets city of Jenin

www.theguardian.com

I don't see this leading anywhere good. Maybe one day Israel will realize they are the #1 recruiter for groups like Hamas, but certainly not anytime soon. I only see this escalating things on both sides further.

If armed gunmen were fighting back, then they obviously found the right place.

It's easy to blame Israel when collateral damage happens, but most of the blame goes to the terrorists who are deliberately operating camps near sensitive populations as human shields.

In a joint statement, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) and the domestic intelligence service, Shin Bet, said they had attacked a command centre in the Jenin refugee camp that was used by a local militant group.

Images from inside Jenin showed armed and masked Palestinian fighters on the streets as gun battles and explosions continued into Monday morning.

At a checkpoint on the outskirts of the city, the sound of increasingly heavy gun battles and aircraft overhead could be heard as the day wore on.

....

The camp on the outskirts of the northern West Bank city was set up in the 1950s and the ghetto-like area, home to about 11,000 people, has long been viewed as a hotbed of what Palestinians consider armed resistance and Israelis see as terrorism.

Hundreds of armed fighters from militant groups including Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah are based there, and the semi-autonomous Palestinian Authority has next to no presence.

The Jenin Brigades, a unit made up of armed men from different factions, has been blamed for several terror attacks against Israeli citizens as the security situation across Israel and the West Bank has deteriorated over the past 18 months.

 

[MTAtech]

All I am saying that with the rightward lurch that Israel has taken, the apartheid state that they have installed, the open air prison that they control, and the ****ery that they employ in the settlements that it is getting harder to support their government.

That’s all.

That's easy to say when one doesn't have to live with the consequences of relaxation of policies. Whenever Israel relaxes their policies the militants take advantage of the situation and mount attacks.

I'm not comfortable with harsh crackdowns but I see no other alternative.

 

[Jezcoe]

That's easy to say when one doesn't have to live with the consequences of relaxation of policies. Whenever Israel relaxes their policies the militants take advantage of the situation and mount attacks.

I'm not comfortable with harsh crackdowns but I see no other alternative.

I can only imagine that if the US had a similar situation of a underclass that was herded into small encampments and forced to live in squalor and if those people rose up to defend themselves…. what that would look like.

It is an intractable problem, but I hold the ethics of the reaction of the State to a much higher standard than individuals or groups. That is just me though.

Israel has been failing at upholding those ethics.

 

[multivita-man]

I used to be "pro-Israel" until I realized how brutal the Israelis can be when they've had enough of PLO/Fatah/Hamas shit. I then went through a period when I was more inclined to criticize Israel, particularly in light of the fact that the news coverage has tended to have a anti-Palestinian bias over the years.

But I've gradually come to the conclusion that even if you had peaceniks in Israel, the shit-disturbers on the Palestine side would come out of the woodwork and goad Israel until they couldn't tolerate it anymore. The Palestinian 'activists' need war, just as the Likudists do.

I'm done having a position on this conflict. The two-state idea is dead and everyone just needs to accept it. I feel sorry for the Palestinians who don't have any malice in their heart and just want to live a normal life. They're being screwed by the pro-settlement Israelis, but they're also getting screwed by their own leadership, and I guess you could throw in Iran as well.

 

[Valaisee]

I don't see this leading anywhere good.

This will lead to less Israeli citizens dying from terror attacks, isn't it good?

Maybe one day Israel will realize they are the #1 recruiter for groups like Hamas, but certainly not anytime soon. I only see this escalating things on both sides further.

If Palestinians don't want incursions like this, why would they support Hamas that lured Israel to it with their latest terror attacks killing Israeli citizens?

The Palestinians have their own internal reasons to support one organization over the other.
These incursions are acts of self defense by Israel against the organizations who chose to attack it's citizens. If Palestinians don't like it - they should support the organizations that don't kill Israeli citizens.

 

[The Mark]

If you can find a single wrong thing about an operation to defend the citizens of a nation targeting militant terrorists then maybe you shouldn't be supporting Western civilized democracies and your values align more with that of radical Islam, Russia, China, Iran, etc.

It is entirely possible to find things wrong with this operation, also have issues with various things Western "civilized" "democracies" have done, and oppose most or all of what the last entities you list do.

 

[Port & Starboard]

Israel attacks Jenin in biggest West Bank incursion in 20 years

At least eight Palestinians killed and dozens injured as major Israeli offensive targets city of Jenin

www.theguardian.com

I don't see this leading anywhere good. Maybe one day Israel will realize they are the #1 recruiter for groups like Hamas, but certainly not anytime soon. I only see this escalating things on both sides further.

Maybe, just maybe, the good people of Palestine will recognize that their terrorist government isn't the way to go.

Want Peace? Get Rid of Hamas.

Both the Palestinian Authority and Israel see Hamas as a bitter enemy; both sides understand that Hamas is an impediment to peace. The end of Hamas's rule could set the stage for actual negotiations.

www.bloomberg.com