Israel and U.S to take out Iran?

[MSgt]

This is about Israel not the US. Of course the US has blood on its hands, I never said they didnt. How you can not see this as a Holly war is beyond me.

Peace in the Middle East? Not anytime soon.

This is about a country fighting for survival and in defense of itself. Nothing more. The only religious aspect of this is what Muslims are bringing to it and what Jews are defending with. For America, this is about defending an ally.

Again....if Palestinians stopped the violence and Iran and Saudi stopped encouraging Palestinian "martyrs"...would their be "peace in the Middle East?" It is very clear who the aggressor is.

 

[MSgt]

My only point was how can any one side be right when both are so wrong.

I'm not taking any one side over the issue.

When I was in Beirut I met good and bad people from both sides. I feel for the common man on both sides of the conflict who just wants to provide for his family.

This is where you make your mistake. This has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong. It is very comforting choosing not to take a side when you are not affected. For the Middle East they have taken a side and for millions of Muslims, terrorism is a perfectly acceptable path to "God." This is survival and Israel is fighting for theirs. I'll say it again....It is not Israel that refuses to get along and play well with others.

 

[MSgt]

many more thousands of palestinian civilians have died than Israelis - and they were killed in an even more cowardly fashion than used by the terrorists, from sniper posts, from Apache gunships, from F16s, from tanks, from armoured bulldozers.
I have no ideological leanings on these matters - I despise both the Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists, while believing there are a majority of good people on the respective sides - but looking at the historical facts going from the founding of Israel on land previously occupied by families that were expelled by force in through to the building of armed settlements on Palestinian land in the present day, it is plain for all but the ideologically impaired to see who are the true oppressed in this situation, and have been since 1948.
You talk about this stealing of land as analagous to the theft of native american land as though it is something long in the past that we can no longer do anything about (similar to the Irish situation - and of course theft of native american land still takes place wholesale in latin america) and invoke the original jewish peoples of Palestine from thousands of years ago - but if that gives them a right to other peoples land in the twentieth century, where is the logical end to this argument? Do we all have the right to go back to Africa and demand land because that's where all humans originally came from (unless you are a creationist nutbar)?
Also, it is not the case that it is an old problem, theft continues to the present day.
May I ask what half-baked theory you have to defend the criminal settlement programme that has driven palestinain families off of much of the best land in the West Bank over the last three decades?

Oh and please stop quoting Israeli propaganda sites, if I wanted to find details of Israelis eating babies alive I could probably find it on the Internet, but that doesnt make it true.

Cherokee - yes, the USS Liberty aatack was only one of Israel's war crimes since its founding unfortunately. Yes, many other states in the region have commited terrible crimes in wartime - but only Israel escapes with a squeaky clean reputation in more blinkered eyes.

They "escape" because they are surrounded by those that want them to dissapear....and for what?

Isreal has every right to defend itself and they have been repelling Muslim violence for over fifty years. It's that simple.

 

[cherokee]

How about that? It smacks of desperation. You produce an event that involved the PLO and something that got out of hand. I said "Give one example on when they arbitrarily decided to kill Muslims." Keep in mind that I use "arbitrarily" as if Israeli soldiers went into a Palistenian market place and blew up every civilian within blast range.


A controversial incident. Hardly what was being discussed.

How about you see the post above with the UN Resolutions filled against Israel.

NOW the USS Liberty being a controversial incident?
Not worth being discussed?
I beg to differ; it was you who said Israel attacks only in self-defense

I Invite you to the basement...

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The question you need to ask is whether Zionism is helping the Global populations working class or is Zionism infact creating a dramatic imbalance and underclass of poor, overworked, overstressed men and women.

You see when you answer this question you see that Zionism and the Jewish state are doing nothing for this world really.

Therefore i would have to conclude that i think Zionist backed U.S, British and Israeli media need to stop portreying Iran as the next Iraq, the media need to accept that George W Bush is NOT a holy crusader, and like wise the Iranian Prime Minister Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not the Devil Incarnate.

Infact the whole reason there is this malice towards Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is infact due to his remarks about the Zionist state that is Israel:

""If the killing of Jews in Europe is true and the Zionists are supported because of this excuse, why should the Palestinian nation pay the price?"

and calling the Jewish state a "tumour" that should be "wiped off the map".

These are fair comments IMO, the fact that Zionist bankers Fritz Thiessen and George W Bushs Grandfather helped fund the rise of Adolf Hitler and his Third Reich proves that Zionists use the plight of the Jewish people as a smokescreen to immediately condemn any opponent as Anti Semitic and a "Threat".

I believe that ZIonism is a cancer on this planet, and needs to be tackled, since there is no real democracy in my zionist run western dictatorship the only opposition to this injustice comes in the form of the Iranian president.

However i also believe no country should be continuing with Nuclear plant building, after the devastating effects of the oil tank explosion in UK this week, we'd all be dead if that was a Nuclear plant, so i do not support Iran there, why shouldn't they be allowed the same things as Western countries though??

We got ourselves another Nazi spewing his conspiratorial rhetoric. So how's the coolaid?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Continued



(My emphasis)

That might give you an idea of real life and how America have conducted affairs at home and away, but please don't stop with this snippet of American Foreign Policy, read in the South americas Chile and Nicaragua, Vietnam and Afghanistan, realise that there is no justification for what the U.S does.

I support Israel, I support the ousting of Allende and happy that Commie tyrant bastard is dead, I support the Contras fuc/k the Sandinistas, I support Alpha-66 viva la revolution death to Castro, and I support the overthrow of Hugo Chavez, how do you like me now???

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Ok how about this..
Sabra and Shatila massacre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


Against the US
USS Liberty.
http://www.ussliberty.org/

Actually Sabra and Shatilla was perpetrated by Lebanese Christian militia groups infuriated by the assasination that the PLO did against the president elect, it was not the Israelis.

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

I support Israel, I support the ousting of Allende and happy that Commie tyrant bastard is dead, I support the Contras fuc/k the Sandinistas, I support Alpha-66 viva la revolution death to Castro, and I support the overthrow of Hugo Chavez, how do you like me now???

Well i think that says more about YOU than american foreign policy.

Out of interest do you think that America should invade and set up more corrupt governments in South America?

After all Venezuela has large Oil reserves, it may prove a good idea for Big business run America?

By the way i would like to have a guess at something, are you by any chance a middle aged white, christian conservative, Mason by any chance??

 

[cherokee]

Actually Sabra and Shatilla was perpetrated by Lebanese Christian militia groups infuriated by the assasination that the PLO did against the president elect, it was not the Israelis.

"The Israeli military had completely surrounded and sealed off the camps and set up observation posts on the roofs of nearby tall buildings on September 15. The next day Israel announced that it controlled all key points in Beirut. The Israeli military met throughout the day with top Phalangist leaders to arrange the details of the operation. For the next two nights, from nightfall until late into the night the Israeli military fired illuminating flares above the camps.

On the evening of September 16, 1982 the Phalangist militia, under the command of Elie Hobeika, entered the camps. For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of the refugee camps, while the Israeli military guarded the exits and continued to provide flares by night."

 

[Touchmaster]

Well i think that says more about YOU than american foreign policy.

Out of interest do you think that America should invade and set up more corrupt governments in South America?

After all Venezuela has large Oil reserves, it may prove a good idea for Big business run America?

By the way i would like to have a guess at something, are you by any chance a middle aged white, christian conservative, Mason by any chance??

Id hazard a guess that he is a young (if nothing else because his grammar is appalling), white, well-off, Miami resident who has close affiliation with the exile communities made up of the descendants of corrupt Latin American dictators, actually. Probably has a poster of Batista on his wall.

 

[MSgt]

How about you see the post above with the UN Resolutions filled against Israel.

NOW the USS Liberty being a controversial incident?
Not worth being discussed?
I beg to differ; it was you who said Israel attacks only in self-defense

I Invite you to the basement...

The UN files resolutions about everyone. They even have some on us.

Again....you are attempting to balance one incident with the constant terror tactics of the Palestinians. It doesn't hold water.

It is the same as some of these people that don't believe Islam should be discussed when regarding Islamic Radicalism, because Christians burned some witches at Salem.

The basement? How old are you?:3oops:

 

[MSgt]

"The Israeli military had completely surrounded and sealed off the camps and set up observation posts on the roofs of nearby tall buildings on September 15. The next day Israel announced that it controlled all key points in Beirut. The Israeli military met throughout the day with top Phalangist leaders to arrange the details of the operation. For the next two nights, from nightfall until late into the night the Israeli military fired illuminating flares above the camps.

On the evening of September 16, 1982 the Phalangist militia, under the command of Elie Hobeika, entered the camps. For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of the refugee camps, while the Israeli military guarded the exits and continued to provide flares by night."

Again....one incident. The challenege was to produce a time when Israel arbitrarily went out to slaughter Muslims.

Whining about this one incident that occurred during a retaliation is the same thing as the "Global Left" condemning our actions in Afghanistan. We too, are there in our defense. War..is war. And this entire region has been at war with Israel since 1949. How dare Israel survive this whole time without perfection.:roll:

 

[MSgt]

Out of interest do you think that America should invade and set up more corrupt governments in South America?

If it keeps the trash on your side of the world...yes. The USSR had Castro. They would not have anything else.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Well i think that says more about YOU than american foreign policy.

Out of interest do you think that America should invade and set up more corrupt governments in South America?

After all Venezuela has large Oil reserves, it may prove a good idea for Big business run America?

By the way i would like to have a guess at something, are you by any chance a middle aged white, christian conservative, Mason by any chance??

First off our government didn't install Pinochet, the Chilean Deputy of Chambers (equivalent of U.S. House of Representatives) ordered the military to oust Allende for crimes against the Chilean Constitution and the Republic, secondly Allende was attempting to create a totalitarian Communist dictatorship, thirdly the Sandanistas were brutal Communist tyrants and the Contras were freedom fighters, fourthly Chavez of Venezuela as we speak is silencing dissidents, arming leftist militias, cracking down the media, nationalizing all bussiness and industry, and consolidating his power into a centralized authoritarian manner. Chavez is a tyrant following in the Fidelisto footsteps to a T.

Finally an Illuminati crack? By the way is your tin foil hat on securely?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Id hazard a guess that he is a young (if nothing else because his grammar is appalling), white, well-off, Miami resident who has close affiliation with the exile communities made up of the descendants of corrupt Latin American dictators, actually. Probably has a poster of Batista on his wall.

The Cubans have come to our country in mass, your assertion that all the Cubans who want Casto gone are former Batista supporters is assenine in the extreme, Alpha 66 was formed by the original Cuban revolutionaries who fought against the tyrant Batista for a Democratic Cuba only to have Batista replaced by the tyrant Castro.

 

[Tashah]

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=212417&postcount=108

By the way i would like to have a guess at something, are you by any chance a middle aged white, christian conservative, Mason by any chance??

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=212468&postcount=110

Id hazard a guess that he is a young (if nothing else because his grammar is appalling), white, well-off, Miami resident who has close affiliation with the exile communities made up of the descendants of corrupt Latin American dictators, actually. Probably has a poster of Batista on his wall.

[Moderator Mode=Tashah]

:minigavel Debate the topic and cease the smack. If you two don't quickly smart up and debate in a civil manner, I will not hesitate to take other measures. Your choice.

[/Moderator Mode]

 

[robin]

the Sandanistas were brutal Communist tyrants and the Contras were freedom fighters

What kind of freedom do right wing death squads fight for ?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

What kind of freedom do right wing death squads fight for ?

The Contras did no such thing they were not death squads they liberated territories controlled by the despotic tyrannical Sandinista regime and in reprisal the Sandanistas shelled entire towns and villages filled with innocent men, women, and children. You sir have no idea what you're talking about and for you to side with the evil Sandanista regime speaks volumes about you, I oh so love you Communist propogandists attempting to rewrite history.

Death to Castro, viva la Revolution, viva Alpha 66, nex ut tyrannus y sic semper tyrannus, licentia vel nex!

 

[MSgt]

What kind of freedom do right wing death squads fight for ?

As opposed to left-winged death squads?:roll:

Here we go....enter the CIA....Pinochet...Allende....

 

[robin]

You sir have no idea what you're talking about and for you to side with the evil Sandanista regime speaks volumes about you, I oh so love you Communist propogandists attempting to rewrite history.

You took sides, not I. Oh & BTW I'm a business man.
US backed dictators like Somoza are just so good aren't they ?
How little your country really has done for freedom & justice.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You took sides, not I. Oh & BTW I'm a business man.
US backed dictators like Somoza are just so good aren't they ?
How little your country really has done for freedom & justice.

What the hell does Somoza have to do with backing the Contras?

And Somoza was better than the Sandanistas atleast under him the people didn't starve to death.

 

[teacher]

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=212417&postcount=108


http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=212468&postcount=110


[Moderator Mode=Tashah]

:minigavel Debate the topic and cease the smack. If you two don't quickly smart up and debate in a civil manner, I will not hesitate to take other measures. Your choice.

[/Moderator Mode]

Tashah said "smack"...in the voice of a moderator no less.

We all pretty much know by now how seriously I should be taken. But, damn, when a moderator is telling you all to stop the "smack", that is just sweeeeeeeeet classic stuff.

Been a while since I've been banned. Am I getting smarter or are you all just losing the edge?

The contagion spreads.

 

[cherokee]

Again....one incident. The challenege was to produce a time when Israel arbitrarily went out to slaughter Muslims.

Whining about this one incident that occurred during a retaliation is the same thing as the "Global Left" condemning our actions in Afghanistan. We too, are there in our defense. War..is war. And this entire region has been at war with Israel since 1949. How dare Israel survive this whole time without perfection.:roll:

Hey you want to keep a blind eye that’s fine.
Maybe you see them as gods people so it’s against your religion I don’t know, better yet I really don’t care.

How old am I? Well that’s a funny one. When you were 11 years old enjoying your Saturday morning cartoons
WE the MARINES were being harassed and shot at by Israeli soldiers.
Honestly I still do hold a grudge against them still. I didn’t trust them then and I don’t trust them now.

Since you wont go to the basement…
Your remarks on the USS Liberty.
As you put it “A controversial incident. Hardly what was being discussed.”
You can go to hell…It wasn’t controversial for the 34 sailors who died in the attack or the 174 that were wounded.
But maybe you agree with Israel stand.

“Israel and its supporters insist it was a "tragic case of misidentification" and charge that the survivors are either lying or too emotionally involved to see the truth.”

Whatever....:roll:

 

[Tashah]

Your remarks on the USS Liberty. As you put it “A controversial incident. Hardly what was being discussed.” You can go to hell…It wasn’t controversial for the 34 sailors who died in the attack or the 174 that were wounded. But maybe you agree with Israel stand.

Three official Israeli investigations, five US Congressional investigations, four other US government investigations, and a US Naval Court of Inquiry...

... have all come to the conclusion that the USS Liberty/IAF incident of 8 June, 1967 was a tragic mistake that occurred in the fog of war without agenda or premeditaion. Tactical errors have been attributed to both sides. On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the exchange of diplomatic notes between the U.S. and Israel. Israel also eventually paid nearly $13 million in damage reparations to the United States and in compensation to the families of the victims.

On July 2, 2003, as a result of Florida Judge Jay Cristol's (retired Naval carrier pilot) lawsuit using the Freedom of Information Act, the US National Security Agency made two significant admissions. Additional NSA documents have been requested under the FOIA.

NSA Confirms Israel Liberty Attack Was Accident

This unfortunate incident happened 40 years ago and the United States and Israel remain staunch allies. Are you trolling cherokee or is there a contemporary point to this? What exactly does this historical tangent have to do with Iran's goal of acquiring nuclear weapons in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) of which Iran is a signatory? After all, that is the intended topic of this thread.

 

[teacher]

Since you wont go to the basement…

Gunny is above people like you. He's way smart. But then so am I. And so is Tashah. You just have no friggin idea how behind the 8ball you are. You are going up against those two? I live in the basement. Any time. Seems to me you are holding onto hate. Sure, it's your prerogative. Just like Ayran. These people are way nice cherokee. They are just going to pester you with facts and logic. Apparently that is not what you are looking for. You are looking for someone like me. Sure, I can do the same thing, but where is the fun in that? I'm logic's pit bull you friggin anti-semite. That's pretty much how I see you so far. Just like all the rest. Just go look for my name in the basement. Oh yea sport, you might not want to talk about cartoons to me. And when you went all age on Gunny you just proved one thing. There ain't no fool like an old fool. You won't listen to facts, logic, apologies or reason. That leaves you with me. Let's start this out where it belongs. So you hate Jews. Hate rules your life. We good so far? Next?

Bring it angry boy. I like people like you.