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Israel and U.S to take out Iran?

Mickyjaystoned said:
Pricks like you really are way too lost to be brought back.

I am not a liberal and have no faith in any political party whatsoever, every political party in my country is moving towards centralisation, a process that began in 1930's europe before the succesion of a highly fascist political party in Germany.

For twenty years conspiracy theorists and generally open minded folks have prophecised that the state of Israel will exert massive influence over American and British Foreign policy, creating a similar situation to 1930's germany except with the oppressed being the poor not a particular religious group, theorists have also prophecised a centralisation of power for europe, from real political diversity before the war, to modernisation politics from the 70's ending in every european countries affairs being run from Brussels, already we have a large percentage of policy coming from Brussels, designed to align us with the European Union and eventually the U.N.

And for ten years conspiracy theorists have talked about an obvious war in the east in order to appease dramatically high energy needs in the west, once this war in Iraq has ended with a U.N peacekeeping force obtaining permanent residence in the country, protecting American Oil reserves etc. there will be a war set up between China and the States, over the oil of Iran, which exports ariound 25% to China at the moment, what better way for zionism to avoid challege from China than to launch an attack on Iran forcing American participation and enforcing global rule, for the AMericans who will in time be replaced in all middle eastern countries by UN peacekeeping forces.

Your politics has gone to far now, things are starting to come true, ID cards, NSA spying, BIG BROTHER state, Outlawing of firearms etc.

Politics in the last half of the 20th century has been conducted purely by Business for Business and the modernists goal of Globalisation, Globalisation demands the neutralisation of Iran, and the exploitation of the dependant population.

Class warfare is very real, if you don't believe me look at your own country and the HUUUGE levels of unemployment in predominantly Black and Hispanic areas, look at the lack of response to Hurricane Katrina for the same communities and you will start to see the truth;

Your government does not give a **** about the lower class that it has created, it does not give a **** about the majority of people who voted it into power, the government cares about it's own longevity and the progress of Business on a global level.

Do you really think Bush cares about the American people when he makes his policies, if yes then why would he have the NSA spy on them, why woulod he lock up thousands of anti war protesters and why would he go to war with Iraq.

Financial gain=Power=control

To exert total influence on the people Bush needs plenty money, thats why his campaign costs run into the Billions, and his backers get to rebuild nations he destroys, and set up energy plants/pipelines in the same countries.


Here's some cheese to go with that whine.
 
BillyBadAss said:
Great idea cherokee, they can't learn how to get along and are always sucking us into their problems, nuke em all. At least, I feel that way sometimes.


Explain how Israel is not "getting along." What great threat to Muslim life have they imposed over the decades? Last I checked they are the freest society and the only "utopia" within the Middle East where Jews, Christians, and Muslims enjoy a progressive democracy.

What a sell out. Can your friends depend on you in a fight or do they expect you to run when the going gets tough?
 
tell that to the thousands of dead palestinian civilians..
 
Touchmaster said:
tell that to the thousands of dead palestinian civilians..
what about the thousands of dead Israelis, killed by palestinian suicide bombers? young men sent out by their clerics with a promise of a shortcut to heaven, where they can get all the sex they want. I wonder why the clerics don't ever strap on those bombs themselves and "make a statement"?
 
Touchmaster said:
tell that to the thousands of dead palestinian civilians..

Terrorist leaders use their relatives and neighbors as shields, and they die with them. Their deaths are the extremists fault, not Israel's.

It's a frequent occuring thing - much of the world applies a double standard when accusing Israel of barbarity for inflicting civilian casualties as part of legitimate military operations, while overlooking the numerous Israeli civilians that are frequently and intentionally killed by Palistenian leaders and their subordinates. For Europeans, especially, Jewish lives count no more today than they did in 1944. Why are Palestinian terrorists allowed to target civilians without exciting an international outcry, while every accidental civilian death inflicted by Israel is a crime against humanity? This is a fact that we have seen far too often and America can sympathize because we get the same treatment. Europe's reflexive anti-Semitism doesn't really matter much, since today's Europeans lack the power, will and courage to act upon their bigotry. But Americans need to stop pandering to the European attitude and recognize that Israel is fighting for its life; that Israel is fighting with great restraint; and that Israel's pursuit of terrorists is every bit as legitimate as our own. In the meantime, as the U.S. slowly learns the real meaning of a "War on Terror", the Israelis continue to struggle against the Arab vision of Jewish annihilation. They have been on the defensive ever since 1949. Defending their land from one attack after another, yet restrain from attacking into Muslim countries. They have been honorable in their quest for survival. They deserve our credit. Israel will do what must be done, as humanely as possible. And Israel must accept that no matter what it does or fails to do, no matter how much success it achieves and how few civilian casualties it inflicts among its enemies, it will be hated by those who cheer on the enemies of mankind from the safety of Europe and Harvard Yard.

As with organizations like the Nazi party, KKK, and other such denizens of bigotted anti-semetic hate......the fundamental Islamic movement preys on the youth and misguides their frustrations with their own governments into hate against western society - because you see....it is our fault they belong to a failing civilization. This civilization involves countries in the Middle East like Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan. The Arab disease of blame has reached as far as Pakistan. If we do nothing to protect ourselves from these zealots, Indonesia and India will be next to fall to the Arab disease. How curious it is that the Kurds are proving to all that success in the Middle East can thrive while embracing peace with Israel and America. Even more curious is the fact that people are quick to dismiss the anti-semetic fanaticism of the KKK and the Nazi Party, but tolerate and look for an understanding on how the anti-semetic fanticism of the fundamental Islamist have been wronged some how!


Pity the poor Palestinian civillians who cheer for every attack into Israel that purposefully murders Israeli civillians.:roll:

Chances are you don't even know what you are talking about. Once again...show us how Israel has refused to get along with Muslims in the last 55 years. We can certainly show you where Muslims and Persians have consistantly ventured to slaughter Israelis and to "drive them off of Arab land."
 
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Touchmaster said:
tell that to the thousands of dead palestinian civilians..

Arab and Iranian dictators oppress their subjects, sponsor about half of the world’s major terror groups and imperil Israel, the Middle East’s sole Democracy. 360 million people in Arab states and Iran are entitled to the same freedom and prosperity enjoyed by Europeans, Americans and Israelis.

9 out of 19 of the most repressive regimes in the world is in the Middle East or include Muslim extremists - Former Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Morocco (Western Sahara), Uzbekistan, and Russia’s Chechnya.
http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway.html

The Middle East is also the hotbed of Jihad (Holy War), an ideology of world domination. Today, jihad is the world's foremost source of terrorism, inspiring a worldwide campaign of violence by self-proclaimed jihadist groups. The scourge of international terrorism now reaches far beyond the United States and Israel.


Nearly half of the world’s major terror groups are Arab and Iranian. 5 out of the world’s 7 state-sponsors of terrorism are Arab and Iranian – Iran, former Iraq, Libya, Sudan, and Syria. http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2002/html/19988.htm

In Arab and Iranian dictators' propaganda there is almost no problem that is not caused by the existence of Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy. Most of the Arab and Muslim states do not recognize Israel's right to exist. The freest Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East live in Israel. The Israeli government is the only one in the Middle East that is elected by free citizens -- including Arabs and Muslims. Israel is a free, Western country, which recognizes the individual rights of its citizens (such as their right to liberty and freedom of speech). It uses military force only in self-defense. The enemies of Israel, by contrast, are state sponsored terrorist organizations and dictatorships. They do not recognize the individual rights of their own subjects, much less those of the citizens of Israel. They initiate force indiscriminately in order to retain and expand their power.

Once again....Pity the poor Palestinian civillians who cheer for every attack into Israel that purposefully murders Israeli civillians. If they weren't so busy blaming the Jews for their wrecked society and instead rolled up their sleeves and took responsibility for themselves, they wouldn't be in such a mess right now. Instead, they are perfectly content with whining, complaining, throwing termep tantrums, and blaming others and begging for sympathy from anyone that will coddle their internal failures and designed stagnation. Israel and the west hasn't kept them down....they've done this to themselves.
 
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cherokee said:
All sides have blood on their hands.
Even Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

The state of Israel is just the newest installment of the same religious war that’s been raging on for hundreds of years.


All sides always has blood on their hands. Survival usually spills blood. Israel isn't on a crusade in the name of their religion. Nor do they blame the problems within their society on Muslims. I will state again that Israel is a utopia within this region in which, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all enjoy freedom together. This is what the Radical element is out to destroy and this what much of the Moderate Muslims "programmably" cheer on. The Persians and the Saudi Arabs could care less of Palestinian grief.

Simply stating that "all sides have blood on their hands" doesn't make the reality that post 81 describes go away. Israel is more than willing to be left alone. The Arab and Persian world are determined to use every bit of Palestinian blood they can to continue violence and disrupt all atempts of peace. They simply do not want it and since they do not want it....we must stand on a side. America has chosen to stand on the side of a fellow democratoic nation and an ally.
 
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GySgt said:
All sides always has blood on their hands. Survival usually spills blood. Israel isn't on a crusade in the name of their religion. Nor do they blame the problems within their society on Muslims. I will state again that Israel is a utopia within this region in which, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all enjoy freedom together. This is what the Radical element is out to destroy and this what much of the Moderate Muslims "programmably" cheer on. The Persians and the Saudi Arabs could care less of Palestinian grief.

Simply stating that "all sides have blood on their hands" doesn't make the reality that post 81 describes go away. Israel is more than willing to be left alone. The Arab and Persian world are determined to use every bit of Palestinian blood they can to continue violence and disrupt all atempts of peace. They simply do not want it and since they do not want it....we must stand on a side. America has chosen to stand on the side of a fellow democratoic nation and an ally.




I don’t disagree with most of post 81 but to say "It uses military force only in self-defense" isn’t 100% true. The way some of the posts come off is that Israel has never done anything wrong or that it’s this great light surrounded by darkness. Does holly land strike a bell?
 
cherokee said:
I don’t disagree with most of post 81 but to say "It uses military force only in self-defense" isn’t 100% true. The way some of the posts come off is that Israel has never done anything wrong or that it’s this great light surrounded by darkness. Does holly land strike a bell?


Well, the same can be said about America. We act in our own self defense and in the defense of others. This does not mean that we are a shining light. We too, have blood on our hands. Give me an example where Israel attacked into a Muslim country or bombed a Muslim country in the name of God or the Holy Land. Give one example on when they arbitraily decided to kill Muslims. Just because they have the sentiment of the "Holy Land" on their tongues it doesn't mean they kill in the name of it. They are just protecting their country. It's the same as any other country would do in the world.

We have a large amount of Christian influence with our governments from President to President. Does this mean Iraq, Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Vietnam, Germany, and Italy was in the name of God? Religion is an aspect that is expoloited on the Muslim side....not the Israelis. They simply want to be left alone.

Ask yourself this...If Palestinian Muslims were to stop their terror tactics and Iranian and Saudi influence were to stop their push for violence.....would there be peace in the Middle East?
 
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GySgt said:
Well, the same can be said about America. We act in our own self defense and in the defense of others. This does not mean that we are a shining light. We too, have blood on our hands. Give me an example where Israel attacked into a Muslim country or bombed a Muslim country in the name of God or the Holy Land. Give one example on when they arbitraily decided to kill Muslims. Just because they have the sentiment of the "Holy Land" on their tongues it doesn't mean they kill in the name of it. They are just protecting their country. It's the same as any other country would do in the world.

We have a large amount of Christian influence with our governments from President to President. Does this mean Iraq, Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Vietnam, Germany, and Italy was in the name of God? Religion is an aspect that is expoloited on the Muslim side....not the Israelis. They simply want to be left alone.

Ask yourself this...If Palestinian Muslims were to stop their terror tactics and Iranian and Saudi influence were to stop their push for violence.....would there be peace in the Middle East?



This is about Israel not the US. Of course the US has blood on its hands, I never said they didnt. How you can not see this as a Holly war is beyond me.

Peace in the Middle East? Not anytime soon.

"The earliest known mention of the name 'Israel', probably referring to a group of people rather than to a place, is the Egyptian Merneptah Stele dated to about 1210 BCE. For over 3,000 years, Jews have held the Land of Israel to be their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a Promised Land. The Land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temple, as well as the rites concerning those temples. Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for over a millennium. Recent archeological evidence suggests that the kingdoms of King David and King Solomon may have existed."

Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict


1955 to 1992 UN



* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious

obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".

* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member

states not to assist Israel's settlements program".

* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of

two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".

* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the

council's order not to deport Palestinians".

* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide

by the Fourth Geneva Convention".

* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its

claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".

* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported

Palestinian mayors".

* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's

nuclear facility".

* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan

Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".

* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and

allow food supplies to be brought in".

* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions

and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".

* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia

in attack on PLO headquarters.

* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw

its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".

* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students

at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".

* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices

denying the human rights of Palestinians.

* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly

requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians

at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United

Nations.

* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of

Palestinians.

* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and

calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.

* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians
and calls for their immediate return.
 
many more thousands of palestinian civilians have died than Israelis - and they were killed in an even more cowardly fashion than used by the terrorists, from sniper posts, from Apache gunships, from F16s, from tanks, from armoured bulldozers.
I have no ideological leanings on these matters - I despise both the Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists, while believing there are a majority of good people on the respective sides - but looking at the historical facts going from the founding of Israel on land previously occupied by families that were expelled by force in through to the building of armed settlements on Palestinian land in the present day, it is plain for all but the ideologically impaired to see who are the true oppressed in this situation, and have been since 1948.
You talk about this stealing of land as analagous to the theft of native american land as though it is something long in the past that we can no longer do anything about (similar to the Irish situation - and of course theft of native american land still takes place wholesale in latin america) and invoke the original jewish peoples of Palestine from thousands of years ago - but if that gives them a right to other peoples land in the twentieth century, where is the logical end to this argument? Do we all have the right to go back to Africa and demand land because that's where all humans originally came from (unless you are a creationist nutbar)?
Also, it is not the case that it is an old problem, theft continues to the present day.
May I ask what half-baked theory you have to defend the criminal settlement programme that has driven palestinain families off of much of the best land in the West Bank over the last three decades?

Oh and please stop quoting Israeli propaganda sites, if I wanted to find details of Israelis eating babies alive I could probably find it on the Internet, but that doesnt make it true.

Cherokee - yes, the USS Liberty aatack was only one of Israel's war crimes since its founding unfortunately. Yes, many other states in the region have commited terrible crimes in wartime - but only Israel escapes with a squeaky clean reputation in more blinkered eyes.
 
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Touchmaster said:
I have no ideological leanings on these matters - I despise both the Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists, while believing there are a majority of good people on the respective sides - but looking at the historical facts going from the founding of Israel on land previously occupied by families that were expelled by force in through to the building of armed settlements on Palestinian land in the present day, it is plain for all but the ideologically impaired to see who are the true oppressed in this situation, and have been since 1948.
You talk about this stealing of land as analagous to the theft of native american land as though it is something long in the past that we can no longer do anything about (similar to the Irish situation - and of course theft of native american land still takes place wholesale in latin america) and invoke the original jewish peoples of Palestine from thousands of years ago - but if that gives them a right to other peoples land in the twentieth century, where is the logical end to this argument? .
May I ask what half-baked theory you have to defend the criminal settlement programme that has driven palestinain families off of much of the best land in the West Bank over the last three decades?

Oh and please stop quoting Israeli propaganda sites, if I wanted to find details of Israelis eating babies alive I could probably find it on the Internet, but that doesnt make it true.

Cherokee - yes, the USS Liberty aatack was only one of Israel's war crimes since its founding unfortunately. Yes, many other states in the region have commited terrible crimes in wartime - but only Israel escapes with a squeaky clean reputation in more blinkered eyes.

You clearly are biased, against Israel, and the Jews.
What would you suggest as a fair and equitable solution to the Palestinian problem? Should we deport all Jews? Would that bring peace to the middle east? NO IT WOULD NOT. If anyone thinks that Arabs can live in peace with other Arabs, they are not paying attention. Just as some Christians think the rest of us are not Christian enough to measure up to them, there are Jews and Muslims who feel the same about members of their religions.
The bigger issue is the wealth of the Arab nations being horded by the elite and the powerful, and they use their power to control their own media, and their own clerics, to convince their own poor that the problem is not greed and selfishness of the Arab upper class, but somehow it is Israel and the USA who are the problem.
The Saudis are classic examples. There is a huge royal family enjoying wealth far above the rest of their country. If every one of the royal family was to take a few million and leave the country, it would only be a matter of time before they are replaced by a new elite, which would be whoever steps in to fill the void. And those who remain at the bottom would still think that somehow Israel and the USA are responsible. It is called abject ignorance of the poor. Their country likes to have them stupid, so they can be duped more easily.
Seems that some outsiders are easily duped as well.
 
A little bit like the powerful in the US who every year get richer at the common American's expense while telling them that everything is the fault of these nasty foreign Arabs with their weird ungodly religions?
 
Aside from my amusement at you inadvertantly holding a mirror to all that is wrong with the US right now, I will ask you - what is the justification for the settlements? And it is these that have been cause for most of the recent troubles.

I know some jews, I know no muslims. The jews I know are massively opposed to Israel's policies, saying it brings shame on their religion.

Saudi Arabia's government are despicable by every measure. But that does not detract from Israel's own crimes.
 
Touchmaster said:
A little bit like the powerful in the US who every year get richer at the common American's expense while telling them that everything is the fault of these nasty foreign Arabs with their weird ungodly religions?
yep, the lying bastards are everywhere, even in the land of the free.
it used to be godless communists, now it is allah loving arabs.
Back before wwI they used the term propaganda as if it was a good thing, but once our enemies started using it, we had to come up with better terminology. Think marketing and adverstising. We are being lied to 24/7 by at least 90% of those talking heads we see on TV and hear on the radio.
 
Particularly liked this bit!
The bigger issue is the wealth of the American nation being horded by the elite and the powerful, and they use their power to control their own media, and their own religious leaders, to convince their own poor that the problem is not greed and selfishness of the US upper class,
 
Touchmaster said:
Aside from my amusement at you inadvertantly holding a mirror to all that is wrong with the US right now, I will ask you - what is the justification for the settlements? And it is these that have been cause for most of the recent troubles.

I know some jews, I know no muslims. The jews I know are massively opposed to Israel's policies, saying it brings shame on their religion.

Saudi Arabia's government are despicable by every measure. But that does not detract from Israel's own crimes.
simple minds are easily amused, and also like to twist the words of others to mean something not said. Is that your best effort at debate? I will be the first to admit that our own nation is guilty of those practices, but also will be the first to point out that this is a better place to live than most.
So, while you are being amused, do you have any answers?
 
I wasnt mocking you, I was just trying to display how these arguments can easily be turned around.
Well regarding the very small question we are addressing, the settlements - I would halt them immediately and try to dismantle as many as possible, providing the settlers with land within Israel's legal borders.
 
Touchmaster said:
I wasnt mocking you, I was just trying to display how these arguments can easily be turned around.
Well regarding the very small question we are addressing, the settlements - I would halt them immediately and try to dismantle as many as possible, providing the settlers with land within Israel's legal borders.
Do you really think that will be enough? It is already being done to some extent, but there are Palestinians and other middle eastern countries who will settle for nothing less than all the Israelis gone. So how do you deal with those fanatics?
 
Actually for all the hoo-ha about removing the Gaza settlements (and if you wanted to settle in Gaza then you are more insane than most the fanatical settlers), the rate of settlement construction in the West Bank has more than increased enough to compensate. im not sure halting and reversing the settlements on Palestinian property would solve everything, but Itd be the right thing to do.. and allow Israel to take a bit more of the moral (golan) high ground.
 
This is about Israel not the US. Of course the US has blood on its
hands, I never said they didnt. How you can not see this as a Holly war is
beyond me.

Peace in the Middle East? Not anytime soon.

"The earliest known mention of the name 'Israel', probably referring to
a group of people rather than to a place, is the Egyptian Merneptah
Stele dated to about 1210 BCE. For over 3,000 years, Jews have held the
Land of Israel to be their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a
Promised Land. The Land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious
obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the
remains of the First and Second Temple, as well as the rites concerning
those temples. Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms
and states existed intermittently in the region for over a millennium.
Recent archeological evidence suggests that the kingdoms of King David
and King Solomon may have existed."

Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict


1955 to 1992 UN



* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that
killed fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's
'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN
decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel
in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu
in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new
1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack
on Karameh in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding
military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade
in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify
Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as
'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN
mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut
airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for
Salt in Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts
to change the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on
villages in southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN
resolutions on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces
from Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against
Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal
form Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the
status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks
against Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on
Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release
Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks
against Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's
sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces
from Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its
withdrawal from Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation
with UN peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are
a 'serious

obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva
Convention".

* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking
Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building
settlements in occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks
all member

states not to assist Israel's settlements program".

* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military
intervention in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal
expulsions of

two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".

* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to
observe the

council's order not to deport Palestinians".

* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's
failure to abide

by the Fourth Geneva Convention".

* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to
Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest
terms' for its

claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".

* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel
re-admit two deported

Palestinian mayors".

* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack
on Iraq's

nuclear facility".

* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of
Syria's Golan

Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its
decision forthwith".

* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from
Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against
Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces
forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of
Beirut and

allow food supplies to be brought in".

* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN
resolutions

and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".

* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully
with UN forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West
Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for
bombing Tunisia

in attack on PLO headquarters.

* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel
to withdraw

its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".

* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of
Palestinian students

at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".

* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and
practices

denying the human rights of Palestinians.

* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport
Palestinians and strongly

requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied
the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of
Palestinian civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing
deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against
Palestinians

at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate
with the United

Nations.

* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the
deportation of

Palestinians.

* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of
Palestinians and

calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.

* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation
of Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation
of 413 Palestinians
and calls for their immediate return.

Thanx cherokee that was an enlightening read.
 
My only point was how can any one side be right when both are so wrong.

I'm not taking any one side over the issue.

When I was in Beirut I met good and bad people from both sides. I feel for the common man on both sides of the conflict who just wants to provide for his family.
 
cherokee said:
Ok how about this..
Sabra and Shatila massacre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

How about that? It smacks of desperation. You produce an event that involved the PLO and something that got out of hand. I said "Give one example on when they arbitrarily decided to kill Muslims." Keep in mind that I use "arbitrarily" as if Israeli soldiers went into a Palistenian market place and blew up every civilian within blast range.
cherokee said:
Against the US
USS Liberty.
http://www.ussliberty.org/

A controversial incident. Hardly what was being discussed.
 
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