Israel and PA to resume talks under Jordanian mediation

[ido_]

Israel, PA set to resume talks under Jordan mediation - Israel News, Ynetnews

any chance this will not be canceled at the last minute?

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

With global support for Israel waning and global support for Palestine rising, I doubt Israel will cancel as holding off may have them negotiating in an even more globally-hostile environment in the future. However, the Palestinians may cancel to allow more time to build stronger global support for their cause.

 

[Tashah]

Not a bad idea. The Jordanians are intimately more familiar with I/P issues than the US/EU/Russia.

 

[X Factor]

With global support for Israel waning and global support for Palestine rising, I doubt Israel will cancel as holding off may have them negotiating in an even more globally-hostile environment in the future. However, the Palestinians may cancel to allow more time to build stronger global support for their cause.

Isn't the 'cause' the same for both? Peace? Or do you envision there has to be a loser here, and you prefer that be Israel?

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Isn't the 'cause' the same for both? Peace? Or do you envision there has to be a loser here, and you prefer that be Israel?

I stated the facts as I see them. Israel does not want the border redraw to the prior agreement and Palestine does. Israel does not want Palestine to become a state which governs itself and Palestine wants this. Given these disagreement, one side will 'win' unless a compromise acceptable to both parties is reached - and given the extreme position both parties hold I doubt that is possible until sufficient pressure is applied to both sides to move toward the center.

This dispute is more about land and right to self-government than peace IMO YMMV.

 

[Gardener]

I stated the facts as I see them. Israel does not want the border redraw to the prior agreement and Palestine does. Israel does not want Palestine to become a state which governs itself and Palestine wants this. Given these disagreement, one side will 'win' unless a compromise acceptable to both parties is reached - and given the extreme position both parties hold I doubt that is possible until sufficient pressure is applied to both sides to move toward the center.

This dispute is more about land and right to self-government than peace IMO YMMV.

Where do you envision this imagined center is where one side is a tiny minority fighting for continued self determination within a sea of hostility, and the other side represents an extension of the huge majority out to destroy them?

 

[Tashah]

Israel does not want Palestine to become a state which governs itself and Palestine wants this.

Where did you get this notion? The Israeli government and the vast majority of Israeli citizens support the two-state solution.

 

[toomuchtime_]

With global support for Israel waning and global support for Palestine rising, I doubt Israel will cancel as holding off may have them negotiating in an even more globally-hostile environment in the future. However, the Palestinians may cancel to allow more time to build stronger global support for their cause.

This makes a lot of sense if all the Palestinian Arabs are after is a facebook state.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

At the end of the day, ain't nothing going to happen. The problem is just going to continue. Both sides are gonna play "negotiations" and then someone will propose something, the other side will reject it, and the talks will fail. SSDD

 

[toomuchtime_]

Where did you get this notion? The Israeli government and the vast majority of Israeli citizens support the two-state solution.

Under certain conditions and with certain qualifications, but certainly not a fully sovereign Palestinian Arab state, and since Hamas swept their last elections, it is fair to say the majority of Palestinian Arabs do not support a two state solution. How may Israelis would support a two state solution if Hamas sweeps the proposed May elections and what sense does it make to negotiate with a Palestinian Arab government that represents the opinions of only a minority of Palestinian Arabs?

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Where did you get this notion? The Israeli government and the vast majority of Israeli citizens support the two-state solution.

If this is the case then why did Israel vehemently oppose Palestine's recent bid for statehood at the UN?

 

[Tashah]

If this is the case then why did Israel vehemently oppose Palestine's recent bid for statehood at the UN?

Legislating a Palestinian state is an artificial device and accomplishes nothing substantial in reality. The only viable way to achieve a permanent settlement of the various issues is via mutual negotiations and a signed accord.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

Legislating a Palestinian state is an artificial device and accomplishes nothing substantial in reality. The only viable way to achieve a permanent settlement of the various issues is via mutual negotiations and a signed accord.

But how is this to occur when negotiations have failed time and timed again due to both sides?

 

[toomuchtime_]

If this is the case then why did Israel vehemently oppose Palestine's recent bid for statehood at the UN?

A better question is why did the PA go to the UN in the first place when no decision at the UNSC would have changed any of the conditions on the ground? The answer is this was all about Palestinian Arab politics. Fatah is engaged in a struggle for the hearts and minds of the Palestinian Arab people with Hamas and the other active terrorist groups and in this struggle the group that shows it hates Israel the most and hurts Israel the most will win, but since the PA is dependent on EU and US support for its continued existence and since this support is conditioned on the abandonment of terrorism, the PA's entire political agenda now consists of tricks and games meant to impress the electorate by embarrassing and insulting Israel.

 

[toomuchtime_]

But how is this to occur when negotiations have failed time and timed again due to both sides?

Perhaps negotiations fail because a Palestinian Arab state is not a viable option.

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Legislating a Palestinian state is an artificial device and accomplishes nothing substantial in reality. The only viable way to achieve a permanent settlement of the various issues is via mutual negotiations and a signed accord.

We substantially agree on this with the exception of UN statehood accomplishing nothing.

In the past, it did not matter if the world supported something like the formation of a PA state or the invasion of Iraq. Today global pressure is applied when counties are seen as taking indecent liberties in dealing with other countries to encourage change. PA is lobbying the world for statehood. Trying for UN statehood was an attempt to gain support for the idea so the global community would put pressure on Israel to consider this as part of the accord that will eventually settle this matter (if it is ever settled)

 

[toomuchtime_]

We substantially agree on this with the exception of UN statehood accomplishing nothing.

In the past, it did not matter if the world supported something like the formation of a PA state or the invasion of Iraq. Today global pressure is applied when counties are seen as taking indecent liberties in dealing other countries to encourage change. PA is lobbying the world for statehood. Trying for UN statehood was an attempt to gain support for the idea so the global community would put pressure on Israel to consider this as part of the accord that will eventually settle this matter (if it is ever settled)

In fact, just the opposite occurred. Informal vote counts showed that the PA was unlikely to get a majority of SC votes even without a US veto.

 

[Mika-El]

I stated the facts as I see them. Israel does not want the border redraw to the prior agreement and Palestine does. ...
This dispute is more about land and right to self-government than peace IMO YMMV.

The first statement you pose as if it is a fact is your subjective opinion. It does nothing to establish a position bit it does reflect your bias.

For those of us who read the Palestinian press and monitor its media daily what we know is wide spread demonstrations just took place glorifying
a past women terrorist and that daily broadcasts are made to Palestinians calling for the taking back of all of Israel.

The media reflects a particular political opinion that is prevalent. To make the sweeping generalization you did that the Palestinian Authority is ready to
recognize Israel as an independent Jewish state is a crock. It has stated the exact opposite as has Hamas.

I have come on this forum saying let's not stereotyupe either Israelis or Palestinians as hating each other. As individuals we do not know what they really feel
and I will try argue the average civilian on both sides is exhausted with the stalemate and wants peace.

However for you to hive knee jerk response to a political opinion the Palestinian Authority has clearly rejected is absurd.

The PA will not reognize Israel as a Jewish state. Hamas has stated it will never accept Israel as a Jewish state. Both Hamas and the largest faction of
Fatah movement part of the Palestinian Authority both call for the violent overthrow and seizure of all of Israel and Jordan and turning them, Gaza
and the West bank into a fundementalist Muslim state. Its there every day on the radio, in the print, on the t.v.'s. It is no secret.

You want to present the PA or Hamas or the hundreds of splintered terror cells as all nice sweeties and its all Israel's obstinate fault think again.

One other thing. Often it is repeated on this forum that Israel does things because it feels pressured the world does not like it.

Hah. Here let me try that again, hah.

Israel hasn't survived as long as it has worrying about what you or any other anti Israeli thinks of it. It survives because it has an intimate
knowledge of the Arab and Palestinian collective psyches as they no doubt do of Israel's.

If there is one thing the Arab world and the Palestinian world know it is that Israelis or their government don't give a flying fornication what
anyone thinks of them. They do what they do to survive. Being an Israeli or a Jew is not a popularity contest. We have never been liked. Please
do not think we sit around fretting what people like you think.

In fact it is a criticism I have argued in self reflection with other Jews and our Israeli brothers and sisters. Sometimes we shall argue between us
maybe we are too tough on ourselves and others, and maybe sometimes we ignore or miss out on opportunities to reach out and ask for help from
allies. Maybe we have some but we doubt them because we doubt ourselves. Could be. But make no mistake, Israelis are not insecure. Not in
the sense of worrying about what you think. Their anxiety arises from being in a constant state of peril from terrorist exposure, not the b.s.,
self-serving, two faced, financial interests other nations have in sucking up to oil producing nations and trying to gain favour by yapping about
what Israel should do while ignoring what the PA has failed to do.

The fact is both Israel's and Palestine's political powers that be are entrenched and have self destructive or self defeating behaviours. They reflect
each other's weaknesses. They bring the worst in each other out. What neither is being helped with is presumptious outsiders presuming to know
what is good for either.

Ultimately any decision as to peace will depend on Palestinians and Israelis no one else. The rest of us mean sweet jack all.

One other thing. To say the pivotal issue is not peace but self government is ridiculous. There is no difference. Peace is about both
peoples becoming self governed. Israel tries but still has the Arab nations and arm chair critics like you questioning its right to do so.

Palestinians have yet to achieve self government because they can't agree among one another who they are and how to achieve it and
for that matter the way they define themselves only arose in 1967 and is not even a genuine description considering so many of the
people who now claim to be Palestinian are visiting Arab workers who simply chose to remain in Palestine or are peoples descended
from non Palestinian Arabs who flooded the West Bank displacing actual Palestinians.

You want to now call them Palestinians good. Fact is it was coined in 1967 by Arafat after being thrown out of Jordan. Until then Jordan
claimed to be the Palestinian state (which is still on its coat of arms) and the fact is Britain illegaly and unilaterally seized 80% of Palestine
and made it the Jew free State of Jordan which granted automatic citizenship to any Palestinian. It was Palestinians who chose to
refuse Jordanian citizenship.

The revisionism of Palestinian history is often repeated but it won't change the fact that Palestinians like Arabs have feuded with each other
more then they have Israelis. Israel is a scapegoat for much Arab disunity.

The practical reality is however the population size and state of reality on the ground requires another Palestinian nation and a free trade
arrangement between Jordan, Palestine and Jordan and one would then eventually hope Lebanon, Syria, Egypt. That is far off. Right now
the greatest problem to the entire area is political instability in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank, Jordan, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Yemen.

Fundamentalist Jews on the West Bank and fundamentalist Muslims are always going to be the barrier to peace.