Islam and Islamophobia

[stevecanuck]

If your interpretation of Islam was correct, there would be a large scale insurgency going on in the United States right now.

After all, we have plenty of Muslims.

But no such thing has occurred.

Gee, I wonder why that is? :roll:

In the previous post I showed you how ridiculous your false dichotomy is. Now let's go back in time. You'll see that everything preventing a current U.S. based insurgency was not an obstacle in 634CE. That's when:

- All Muslims lived in the same place.
- They all spoke the language of the Qur'an.
- They were not yet divided into sects.
- They had leadership.
- They had an army.
- They had weapons and transport.
- AND they all had the benefit of learning Allah's wishes from Mohamed himself, so there were no "interpretation" issues.
- Therefore, they could have had NO doubt as to what was expected of them.

And what did they do with all that information, organization, and weaponry????? That's right. They ventured forth on a great conquest. And now we have a rebirth happening that sees far too many Muslims wanting to party like it's 634.

Please tell me what I'm getting wrong.

 

[stevecanuck]

Because most Muslims just want to live peaceful lives?

I'm still waiting for you to explain the nearly 17 million Pakistanis who voted for a president who reaffirmed his commitment to blasphemy laws that call for death by hanging for anyone who dares to insult Islam.

Are all those people living "peaceful" lives? They haven't physically harmed anyone, but they support those who would. What's your call?

 

[stevecanuck]

What do you think?

I think if you keep making statements that you're unwilling to defend, you'll be roundly ignored and eventually go away.

 

[Tigerace117]

What interpretation would that be? I don't interpret Islam, rather I read the Qur'an. Here, you try it: The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Yusuf Ali: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. there would be a large scale insurgency going on in the United States right now.

What did you "interpret" from that?

No, you warp it to suit your own particular bigotries.....just like AQ and ISIS. Funnily enough, the vast majority of Muslims do none of the things you claim they are supposed to do.

And yet, there is no such "fighting" going on in the United States.....despite the fact that we have plenty of Muslims here.

Common logic sends your argument crashing down in flames.

 

[Tigerace117]

In the previous post I showed you how ridiculous your false dichotomy is. Now let's go back in time. You'll see that everything preventing a current U.S. based insurgency was not an obstacle in 634CE. That's when:

- All Muslims lived in the same place.
- They all spoke the language of the Qur'an.
- They were not yet divided into sects.
- They had leadership.
- They had an army.
- They had weapons and transport.
- AND they all had the benefit of learning Allah's wishes from Mohamed himself, so there were no "interpretation" issues.
- Therefore, they could have had NO doubt as to what was expected of them.

And what did they do with all that information, organization, and weaponry????? That's right. They ventured forth on a great conquest. And now we have a rebirth happening that sees far too many Muslims wanting to party like it's 634.

Please tell me what I'm getting wrong.

Yes, just as Christians, Jews, and quite a few other religions did. I get that you really, really want an excuse to feel justified in your bigotry( by the way, you proved no such thing in your last post; you literally just re-stated your fantasies and whined a lot).

On one hand, we have what you and ISIS think; on the other, we have the actual actions of millions of people.

I know which one I place more stock in.

 

[stevecanuck]

No, you warp it to suit your own particular bigotries.....just like AQ and ISIS.

So you keep saying. My question was how YOU interpreted it. Does it sound like an invitation to tea?

Funnily enough, the vast majority of Muslims do none of the things you claim they are supposed to do.

And yet, there is no such "fighting" going on in the United States.....despite the fact that we have plenty of Muslims here.

Common logic sends your argument crashing down in flames.

I answered this already.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes, just as Christians, Jews, and quite a few other religions did. I get that you really, really want an excuse to feel justified in your bigotry( by the way, you proved no such thing in your last post; you literally just re-stated your fantasies and whined a lot).

On one hand, we have what you and ISIS think; on the other, we have the actual actions of millions of people.

I know which one I place more stock in.

Nice deflection. Again. Always.

Did I get something wrong????? If I did, then just call me Prince Charles, because I'm all ears.

 

[Tigerace117]

So you keep saying. My question was how YOU interpreted it. Does it sound like an invitation to tea?



I answered this already.

No, you didn't. You doubled down on claiming that that's what should be happening, according to your interpretation......and ignored the fact that it isn't.

 

[Tigerace117]

Nice deflection. Again. Always.

Did I get something wrong????? If I did, then just call me Prince Charles, because I'm all ears.

Again.......on one hand, the actual actions of millions of people.

On the other, your interpretation of Islam, which only extremist terrorist groups agree with.

Sounds pretty ****ing clear to me.

 

[stevecanuck]

No, you didn't. You doubled down on claiming that that's what should be happening, according to your interpretation......and ignored the fact that it isn't.

You keep saying this as though it means something, but you can't tell me what I'm getting wrong. So, that's my question every time to post something like this.

What....did....I....get....wrong???

 

[stevecanuck]

Again.......on one hand, the actual actions of millions of people.

On the other, your interpretation of Islam, which only extremist terrorist groups agree with.

Sounds pretty ****ing clear to me.

What did I get wrong? Specifically. Is that verse not in the Qur'an? Does it say something else? Did the first Muslims NOT follow it? I'll keep asking.

 

[stan1990]

No, you warp it to suit your own particular bigotries.....just like AQ and ISIS. Funnily enough, the vast majority of Muslims do none of the things you claim they are supposed to do.

And yet, there is no such "fighting" going on in the United States.....despite the fact that we have plenty of Muslims here.

Common logic sends your argument crashing down in flames.

Good comment. Keep going

 

[Tigerace117]

You keep saying this as though it means something, but you can't tell me what I'm getting wrong. So, that's my question every time to post something like this.

What....did....I....get....wrong???

Again, it's really ****ing simple bud.......the vast majority of Muslims don't do what you claim they should be doing.

If you were correct here in the United States we would be dealing with a major guerilla war right now.

We are not.

Because your interpretation is fundamentally incorrect, which is why only groups like ISIS and AQ agree with it.

 

[Tigerace117]

What did I get wrong? Specifically. Is that verse not in the Qur'an? Does it say something else? Did the first Muslims NOT follow it? I'll keep asking.

And I'll keep pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims do no such things and you'll keep throwing a tantrum over your excuse to be bigoted being exposed.

 

[zyzygy]

I'm still waiting for you to explain the nearly 17 million Pakistanis who voted for a president who reaffirmed his commitment to blasphemy laws that call for death by hanging for anyone who dares to insult Islam.

Are all those people living "peaceful" lives? They haven't physically harmed anyone, but they support those who would. What's your call?

There are bigots everywhere.

 

[stevecanuck]

There are bigots everywhere.

Bigots? How many "bigots" would it take for you to admit that there is a system of religious apartheid at work in Pakistan? A few bigots can always be ignored, but when they appear at the ballot box in numbers sufficient to elect a president, they can be assumed to represent the norm. Your attempt to trivialize such a large number is a joke.

 

[stevecanuck]

.... If you were correct ....

If I were correct about what? I'm not giving an opinion, I'm reading the Qur'an. Are you trying to say 9:29 doesn't exist? It would seem so.

Because your interpretation is fundamentally incorrect, which is why only groups like ISIS and AQ agree with it.

There's that word again. What interpretation are you talking about? Please hallucinate further and let me know how reading something is an interpretation.

 

[stevecanuck]

No, you didn't. You doubled down on claiming that that's what should be happening, according to your interpretation......and ignored the fact that it isn't.

I looked back for the post in which I addressed this, but I can't find it, so fair enough, I guess I must not have hit the send button. I'll try again.

Here are some reasons why there is no wide-spread insurgency in the U.S.:

- There are NOT enough Muslims in the U.S. to mount one. They would get wiped out in 5 minutes.
- A large number of U.S. Muslims would NOT go along with it. Some would even go to the authorities if they caught wind of such a thing.
- For those who would attack, there are a few key ingredients they are lacking:
--- A base of operations.
--- An organization.
--- A leader.
--- Weaponry sufficient to challenge the U.S. army and every guy named Bubba with a gun.

Your assertion is one giant false dichotomy.

The Qur'an says what it says. The hadiths say what they say. Mohamed and the first Muslims did what they did. None of that can be changed, and now with a rebirth of Mohamed's Islam, there are sufficient numbers in the Muslim world who are trying to carry on where they left off. If you want to continue denying that, be my guest.

I don't see a need to respond further if you're not going to specifically debate the points I make.

 

[Tigerace117]

If I were correct about what? I'm not giving an opinion, I'm reading the Qur'an. Are you trying to say 9:29 doesn't exist? It would seem so.



There's that word again. What interpretation are you talking about? Please hallucinate further and let me know how reading something is an interpretation.

No, you are spewing your interpretation, one not shared by the vast majority of Muslims.

If your interpretation was correct groups like ISIS would have taken over the entire Middle East decades ago.

It seems you are desperate to pretend the vast majority of the Muslim world does not exist.

 

[Tigerace117]

I looked back for the post in which I addressed this, but I can't find it, so fair enough, I guess I must not have hit the send button. I'll try again.

Here are some reasons why there is no wide-spread insurgency in the U.S.:

- There are NOT enough Muslims in the U.S. to mount one. They would get wiped out in 5 minutes.
- A large number of U.S. Muslims would NOT go along with it. Some would even go to the authorities if they caught wind of such a thing.
- For those who would attack, there are a few key ingredients they are lacking:
--- A base of operations.
--- An organization.
--- A leader.
--- Weaponry sufficient to challenge the U.S. army and every guy named Bubba with a gun.

Your assertion is one giant false dichotomy.

The Qur'an says what it says. The hadiths say what they say. Mohamed and the first Muslims did what they did. None of that can be changed, and now with a rebirth of Mohamed's Islam, there are sufficient numbers in the Muslim world who are trying to carry on where they left off. If you want to continue denying that, be my guest.

I don't see a need to respond further if you're not going to specifically debate the points I make.

Ah, so in other words we have you compounding your ignorance with further stupidity. What a surprise.....not.

There certainly are more than enough Muslims in the US to launch an insurgency if they were even remotely interested in doing so. Germany's Red Army Faction launched attacks for decades and terrorized western Germany in the process. Their active cells numbered between a dozen and fifteen combatants. Japan's Red Army had a few hundred people tops. The IRA at it's deadliest numbered about fifteen hundred.

There are over three million Muslims in the US, yet we have seen no such incidents. Your first bullet point is a load of crap.

A base? Insurgents tend to use their own local ethnic communities for shelter and support. If what you claimed was true there would be plenty of potential bases across the country, especially in the cities. You've shot yourself in the foot bud; you just admitted that American Muslims don't support the things you claim they would.

An organization and leadership? ISIS not ring a bell? Al Qaeda? Terrorist groups are a dime a dozen. If there was actually support for what you fantasize Islam believes there would be groups lined up around the block hoping to recruit some followers to strike a blow at the "Great Satan". No such thing has occurred.

Weaponry? You are joking, right? This is America. It's laughably easy to get your hands on firearms in many places and almost as easy to do so covertly where the law are more harsh. Explosives are a little harder to get.....unless you are clever about it and improvise.

But that doesn't change the fact that you yourself admitted that you are full of **** in your own post. If Islam really said what you claim, American Muslims wouldn't be "going to the authorities"; they'd be supporting the insurgents. The fact that, again, no such insurgency exists is exihibit A in showing why your beliefs are incorrect.

In other words, you are clinging to a fairy tale to justify your hatred, and it simply doesn't pan out

 

[stevecanuck]

.....If Islam really said what you claim....

If? There is no "if". Here you go. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Sahih International: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Pickthall: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Yusuf Ali: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Shakir: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Muhammad Sarwar: Fight against those People of the Book who have no faith in God or the Day of Judgment, who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful, and who do not believe in the true religion, until they humbly pay tax with their own hands.

Mohsin Khan: Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Arberry: Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.

 

[stevecanuck]

No, you are spewing your interpretation, one not shared by the vast majority of Muslims.

If your interpretation was correct groups like ISIS would have taken over the entire Middle East decades ago.

It seems you are desperate to pretend the vast majority of the Muslim world does not exist.

Along with the false dichotomy above you cling to like a life raft, your only other "argument" is that I'm interpreting the Qur'an where it's crystal clear that I'm merely reading it. You have zero credibility. Spew on, you're on your own from here on.

 

[Tigerace117]

If? There is no "if". Here you go. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Sahih International: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Pickthall: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Yusuf Ali: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Shakir: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Muhammad Sarwar: Fight against those People of the Book who have no faith in God or the Day of Judgment, who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful, and who do not believe in the true religion, until they humbly pay tax with their own hands.

Mohsin Khan: Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Arberry: Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.

And yet, no such fighting is occurring.

Much to the dismay of you and ISIS.

Like I said before.....on one hand we have what you think.

On the other, the actions of millions of people.

I know which one holds more weight.

 

[Tigerace117]

Along with the false dichotomy above you cling to like a life raft, your only other "argument" is that I'm interpreting the Qur'an where it's crystal clear that I'm merely reading it. You have zero credibility. Spew on, you're on your own from here on.

Yes, I get that you are desperate to ignore the fact that your interpretation is full of ****. After all, you are desperate for any excuse to try and justify your bigotry.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes, I get that you are desperate to ignore the fact that your interpretation is full of ****. After all, you are desperate for any excuse to try and justify your bigotry.

Honest, folks. I'm not paying this guy. These are his real posts.