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Is Zelenskyya's mouth now a liability for Ukraine?

So the option is either fight back or just let it happen.

Wonder why they are sticking with fighting back?

No, the solution is to negotiate a ceasefire and end the fighting. History provides numerous examples of conflicts concluding through peace treaties, even when a nation must cede territory as part of the armistice.

For instance, Empress Catherine the Great’s victory over the Ottoman Empire led to the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca (1774), which is part of the historical basis for Putin’s claim that Crimea is Russian territory, given that its population has traditionally been more aligned with Russia than Ukraine.

As I’ve previously noted, it is common practice for nations to sign treaties to end wars they are losing. Consider the Treaty of Paris (1815), which adjusted France’s borders after Napoleon’s forces were routed at Waterloo; the Treaty of Versailles (1919), which reshaped Europe post-WWI; the various Arab–Israeli wars, each of which produced armistice lines that reflected territorial shifts; and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848), through which Mexico ceded approximately 55 percent of its territory to the United States to end a war it was losing.
 
No, the solution is to negotiate a ceasefire and end the fighting. History provides numerous examples of conflicts concluding through peace treaties, even when a nation must cede territory as part of the armistice.


Neither Russia nor Ukraine have agreed on terms for a ceasefire because all of the offered terms don't fit their strategic interests.

For instance, Empress Catherine the Great’s victory over the Ottoman Empire led to the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca (1774), which is part of the historical basis for Putin’s claim that Crimea is Russian territory, given that its population has traditionally been more aligned with Russia than Ukraine.

As I’ve previously noted, it is common practice for nations to sign treaties to end wars they are losing. Consider the Treaty of Paris (1815), which adjusted France’s borders after Napoleon’s forces were routed at Waterloo; the Treaty of Versailles (1919), which reshaped Europe post-WWI; the various Arab–Israeli wars, each of which produced armistice lines that reflected territorial shifts; and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848), through which Mexico ceded approximately 55 percent of its territory to the United States to end a war it was losing.

It seems a common tactic for you to add a bunch of trivia to your posts as if it constitutes a more effective argument.
 
The simplist solution to end the UKR fighting is for all Russian militarry forces to withdraw from Ukraine.

Return the situation to what it was previous to 2014. Make Ukraine whole again.

For an odd and self-serving reason, the pro-Russia posters avoid this option like it is a deadly alien microbe.
 
Its not particularly complicated.

Russia has no incentive to pursue a lasting ceasefire so long as it believes it can achieve its goals via a battlefield victory.

Ukraine has little reason to put faith into a ceasefire unless it receives guarantees Russia won't just break it later once it has had time to rebuild its strength.
 
No, the solution is to negotiate a ceasefire and end the fighting. History provides numerous examples of conflicts concluding through peace treaties, even when a nation must cede territory as part of the armistice.

For instance, Empress Catherine the Great’s victory over the Ottoman Empire led to the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca (1774), which is part of the historical basis for Putin’s claim that Crimea is Russian territory, given that its population has traditionally been more aligned with Russia than Ukraine.

As I’ve previously noted, it is common practice for nations to sign treaties to end wars they are losing. Consider the Treaty of Paris (1815), which adjusted France’s borders after Napoleon’s forces were routed at Waterloo; the Treaty of Versailles (1919), which reshaped Europe post-WWI; the various Arab–Israeli wars, each of which produced armistice lines that reflected territorial shifts; and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848), through which Mexico ceded approximately 55 percent of its territory to the United States to end a war it was losing.

The Treaty of Versailles didn't work out so hot.
 
The US could end the Russia threat by selling more weapons to Ukraine. Like $50 billion worth.

Putin would never give Trump permission to do such a thing.

putins-apprentice.png
 
Neither Russia nor Ukraine have agreed on terms for a ceasefire because all of the offered terms don't fit their strategic interests.

It is equally plausible that neither side wants to end the conflict.

It seems a common tactic for you to add a bunch of trivia to your posts as if it constitutes a more effective argument.

"Trivia"? I’m not sure why you view historical facts as mere trivia, but c’est la vie. My references to treaties ending conflicts by ceding territory were in direct response to your apparent all-or-nothing scenario.
 
The Treaty of Versailles didn't work out so hot.

No, it didn't. Many Germans believed they were "stabbed in the back" after World War I—especially given that there were no foreign troops on German soil when their government capitulated. The Treaty of Versailles is often described as a punitive, vindictive settlement. It imposed draconian restrictions on Germany and demanded massive reparations, which many critics described as a "strangling" burden.

That said, it's also just one of many examples of borders being redrawn as part of a negotiated end to war, rather than through total annihilation of a defeated nation. Hence, there’s plenty of historical precedent for Ukraine to cede the land it has already lost in exchange for a lasting peace.
 
It is equally plausible that neither side wants to end the conflict.
No it isn't. Ukraine would be delighted to end the conflict with a total withdrawal of Russian forces from their land.
"Trivia"? I’m not sure why you view historical facts as mere trivia, but c’est la vie. My references to treaties ending conflicts by ceding territory were in direct response to your apparent all-or-nothing scenario.
None of your references applies to Putin, who has already broken no less than 25 accords, cease fires and treaties with Ukraine. He proved it again just last week. Nothing he says and nothing he signs can be trusted, rendering it totally impossible to end this conflict by ceding territory. Period.
 
It is equally plausible that neither side wants to end the conflict.

This is, i suspect, deliberate misdirection on your part.

Both Russia and Ukraine would prefer the conflict to end as soon as possible.

But in their favor.

"Trivia"? I’m not sure why you view historical facts as mere trivia, but c’est la vie. My references to treaties ending conflicts by ceding territory were in direct response to your apparent all-or-nothing scenario.

Yes, it's trivia, dressed up to seem like you're backing up your argument. But when you actually examine it you realize it doesn't do anything to actually address my point, which was not "there's no precedent for a ceasefire" but rather "a ceasefire under present conditions suits neither faction".
 
No it isn't. Ukraine would be delighted to end the conflict with a total withdrawal of Russian forces from their land.
Likewise, I'd like to win the powerball. That's not going to happen, and neither is Russia withdrawing to the pre-2014 borders.

None of your references applies to Putin, who has already broken no less than 25 accords, cease fires and treaties with Ukraine. He proved it again just last week. Nothing he says and nothing he signs can be trusted, rendering it totally impossible to end this conflict by ceding territory. Period.

So what’s your solution? Ukraine’s much-heralded 2023 Spring Offensive has already failed. Since then, Ukraine has been on the defensive, ceding territory. Given that you reject a ceasefire through a "land for peace" agreement, how do you propose Ukraine militarily defeating Russia and driving their forces from Ukrainian territory?
 
Ending the war won't stop Russia from launching a 3rd invasion.


It wont stop Ukraine from launching a 3rd counteroffensive either


A security guarantee, which means promised military assistance from the West, will prevent another one.


In that case why should Russia agree to a settlement where the aim is to use the stand down to arm Ukraine to the teeth?
 
This is, i suspect, deliberate misdirection on your part.

Both Russia and Ukraine would prefer the conflict to end as soon as possible.

But in their favor.
There’s no misdirection in my "equally plausible" statement—I'm simply recognizing Realpolitik. Likewise, as we've seen, neither side is interested in a negotiated peace agreement. When warfare between two nations stretches over many years, it often shifts from a political disagreement—aligned with Clausewitz’s theory that war is an extension of politics—into a deeply personal feud between their leaders. As the conflict drags on, emotions like anger, pride, and vengeance intensify, overshadowing the original political objectives. Leaders become fixated on defeating each other rather than achieving strategic goals, investing their personal reputation and resources into the struggle. This shift, known as the personalization of conflict, makes peace negotiations extremely difficult, as compromise feels like personal surrender rather than a rational choice.

Consequently, the war devolves into a grueling war of attrition, where both sides aim to vanquish their opponent entirely, regardless of the mounting human and economic costs, locking them into a cycle of violence with no clear end. The harsh reality is that Russia, with its larger population and industrial base, has the advantage. As a result, Russia will continue grinding Ukraine down, as it is doing now. If there is no peace, then Kyiv will eventually fall—just as Berlin did in 1945.

Yes, it's trivia, dressed up to seem like you're backing up your argument. But when you actually examine it you realize it doesn't do anything to actually address my point, which was not "there's no precedent for a ceasefire" but rather "a ceasefire under present conditions suits neither faction".

The situation isn't simply that "a ceasefire under present conditions suits neither faction," as it's evident that neither side's citizens benefit from the ongoing slaughter. The reality is that neither leader desires a ceasefire that would require compromise.
 
In that case why should Russia agree to a settlement where the aim is to use the stand down to arm Ukraine to the teeth?

And why should Ukraine agree to a settlement where it is forced to disarm while Russia rearms itself to the teeth?
 
Likewise, I'd like to win the powerball. That's not going to happen, and neither is Russia withdrawing to the pre-2014 borders.
They would with advanced American weaponry.
So what’s your solution?
See above.
Ukraine’s much-heralded 2023 Spring Offensive has already failed. Since then, Ukraine has been on the defensive, ceding territory.
That's why we should support Ukraine's efforts. If what you say above is true, then what incentive does Putin have to stop? Answer: NONE! The longer the war goes on, the more territory Ukraine cedes. It's not a complicated formula. This war is a zero sum game.
Given that you reject a ceasefire through a "land for peace" agreement, how do you propose Ukraine militarily defeating Russia and driving their forces from Ukrainian territory?
There can be no "ceasefire through a land for peace agreement". What is it you refuse to grasp about that? How breathtakingly in denial of Putin's record does a person have to be to still be hornswoggled by that horseshit? Stop breathing your own Methane and come up for air. It'll clear you head, and you'll see that there are only two options. Let Putin slaughter Ukrainians until his forces occupy the entire country, or pound the son of a bitch back behind his own borders again.

Either we reward the megalomaniacal madman with a gift of Ukraine, or we teach the evil genie a lesson, and stuff him back into his lamp. Which do you prefer? Putin losing - or Putin winning?

??
 
There’s no misdirection in my "equally plausible" statement—I'm simply recognizing Realpolitik. Likewise, as we've seen, neither side is interested in a negotiated peace agreement.

This is, again, misleading. Both sides have expressed a willingness for a negotiated peace agreement, in fact they have already done work for it. The issue is neither sides conditions are acceptable to another, ergo an impasse.

Consequently, the war devolves into a grueling war of attrition, where both sides aim to vanquish their opponent entirely, regardless of the mounting human and economic costs, locking them into a cycle of violence with no clear end. The harsh reality is that Russia, with its larger population and industrial base, has the advantage. As a result, Russia will continue grinding Ukraine down, as it is doing now. If there is no peace, then Kyiv will eventually fall—just as Berlin did in 1945.

This is an argument that boils down war to mere arithmitic, an understandable but not entirely sound venture.

The situation isn't simply that "a ceasefire under present conditions suits neither faction," as it's evident that neither side's citizens benefit from the ongoing slaughter. The reality is that neither leader desires a ceasefire that would require compromise.

The reality is that Russias demands include the essential surrender of Ukraine in exchange for basically no concessions on Russias part.

Ukraine has already signaled willingness to negotiate also long as it gets security guarantees that Russia won't return and finish the job later. Ukraine knows that if it surrenders, what will follow is the steady erasure of Ukraines status as an independent nation.
 
They would with advanced American weaponry.

See above.

That's why we should support Ukraine's efforts. If what you say above is true, then what incentive does Putin have to stop? Answer: NONE! The longer the war goes on, the more territory Ukraine cedes. It's not a complicated formula. This war is a zero sum game.
We’ve already given Ukraine Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, Javelin anti-tank systems, Switchblade loitering munitions, HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems), Abrams M1 main battle tanks, and Patriot missile systems—all while depleting U.S. military stockpiles of 155 mm howitzer shells and other critical supplies. What more advanced American weaponry do you want us to send? Stealth bombers? Nuclear weapons?

There can be no "ceasefire through a land for peace agreement". What is it you refuse to grasp about that? How breathtakingly in denial of Putin's record does a person have to be to still be hornswoggled by that horseshit? Stop breathing your own Methane and come up for air. It'll clear you head, and you'll see that there are only two options. Let Putin slaughter Ukrainians until his forces occupy the entire country, or pound the son of a bitch back behind his own borders again.

Either we reward the megalomaniacal madman with a gift of Ukraine, or we teach the evil genie a lesson, and stuff him back into his lamp. Which do you prefer? Putin losing - or Putin winning?

??

We’ve already stripped our warehouses of critical weaponry so Ukraine could be armed with advanced American systems. Despite that, Ukraine refuses to adopt Western tactics, clinging instead to their Soviet-style training and fighting a World War I-style trench war.

Even after draining our military stockpiles and squandering tens of billions on this dumb proxy war, the so-called “megalomaniacal madman” is still winning. And while you arbitrarily reject a ceasefire—one that would end the war along the current battle lines—neither you nor anyone else has explained what’s suddenly going to change that would allow Ukraine to win, short of NATO intervening directly (which, of course, would start World War III).

What makes you think the little dictator’s forces—after three years of losing—are suddenly going to pound the “son of a bitch” back behind his own borders again? Do you have any actual plan—or is this just more delusional cheerleading for Zelenskyy and his doomed fantasy of total victory?
 
We’ve already given Ukraine Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, Javelin anti-tank systems, Switchblade loitering munitions, HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems), Abrams M1 main battle tanks, and Patriot missile systems—

The more you talk about this subject, the more you reveal a sophomoric understandings of this war. The US has provided a handful of Patriots, a battalion of tanks, and less than 42 HIMARS. Valuable as they are, treating those numbers as if they are enough to the point of ensuring Ukrainian victory is a foolish argument.

all while depleting U.S. military stockpiles of 155 mm howitzer shells and other critical supplies. What more advanced American weaponry do you want us to send? Stealth bombers? Nuclear weapons?We’ve already stripped our warehouses of critical weaponry so Ukraine could be armed with advanced American systems.

If you want the US to be able to product enough munitions to supply its armed forces in the event of a modern conflict, those production lines would need to remain open. If they don't, they shut down, and take time and money to restart. One of the few good strategic decisions Putin made over his career was funnel money into Russia's defense industry to maintain active production lines of munitions like shells and armored vehicles.

Despite that, Ukraine refuses to adopt Western tactics, clinging instead to their Soviet-style training and fighting a World War I-style trench war.

Ukraine did not adopt "World War I-style trench war" because they want to.

This static, attritional state of the fighting is not desired by either Russia nor Ukraine; it's the result of an inability to wage a war of mechanized maneuver both due to the difficulty of it and the various systems utilized by both sides that make large scale operational maneuver of mechanized forces difficult.

Even after draining our military stockpiles and squandering tens of billions on this dumb proxy war, the so-called “megalomaniacal madman” is still winning. And while you arbitrarily reject a ceasefire—one that would end the war along the current battle lines—neither you nor anyone else has explained what’s suddenly going to change that would allow Ukraine to win, short of NATO intervening directly (which, of course, would start World War III).

What makes you think the little dictator’s forces—after three years of losing—are suddenly going to pound the “son of a bitch” back behind his own borders again? Do you have any actual plan—or is this just more delusional cheerleading for Zelenskyy and his doomed fantasy of total victory?

You have, routinely, in both this discussion and elsewhere, demonstrated little strategic understanding of what Russia desires and the material reality of the war. Russian state media and public officials have made it abundantly clear that they see the only acceptable end of the war as the elimination of Ukraine as a sovereign state, and Ukraine, correctly, sees this as proof that any peace with Russia is useless unless it is backed up by security guarantees that would deter Russian from just ending a temporary ceasefire later down the line. Unless that is achieved, Ukraine doesn't have any reason to accept a ceasefire, because it wouldn't bring actual peace, it would just kick the can down the road.
 
This is, again, misleading. Both sides have expressed a willingness for a negotiated peace agreement, in fact they have already done work for it. The issue is neither sides conditions are acceptable to another, ergo an impasse.
Frankly, I haven’t seen much evidence from either side that they’re serious about ending the war. Zelenskyy claims he wants peace, but then goes on European media and flatly states he won’t accept any ceasefire that acknowledges Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea—or any of the other territories he’s already lost. Meanwhile, Putin signals he's open to a ceasefire, even as he ramps up military attacks and continues bombing cities.

Sure, one could argue that Putin is simply trying to improve his hand at the negotiating table—such as by reclaiming Russian territory like Kursk Oblast, which Ukraine had seized, rather than being forced to trade captured Ukrainian land just to get his own territory back. But if that’s the case, how exactly do Zelenskyy’s absolutist statements indicate any real interest in a negotiated peace?

This is an argument that boils down war to mere arithmitic, an understandable but not entirely sound venture.

Warfare typically follows one of two paths. The first involves overwhelming force, especially when paired with advanced technology, to quickly defeat and subjugate a nation in a short period of time. For example, the U.S.-led battle to liberate Kuwait and devastate Saddam’s forces. However, when such decisive battles don’t occur, warfare often devolves into a war of attrition. In such cases, the larger, more powerful nation usually emerges victorious. While American and European support for Biden’s proxy war against Russia has kept Ukraine alive, the patience of American taxpayers has reached its limit—just as Americans grew weary of the Vietnam War and later the Deep State’s 20-year wars in Afghanistan and the Middle East.

As for Europe, they’re already funneling more money to Russia every year through energy sales (despite alleged sanctions prohibiting them from buying Russian oil and gas) than they’re giving to Ukraine. How long do you think European taxpayers will continue funding Ukraine on their own if America walks away in the absence of a peace agreement?

The reality is that Russias demands include the essential surrender of Ukraine in exchange for basically no concessions on Russias part.

Ukraine has already signaled willingness to negotiate also long as it gets security guarantees that Russia won't return and finish the job later. Ukraine knows that if it surrenders, what will follow is the steady erasure of Ukraines status as an independent nation.

Ending the war via an armistice isn’t “surrendering.” It’s simply a matter of both nations coming to their senses and ending the senseless slaughter. Ukraine’s future security lies in its neutrality, with America and European nations making significant investments in Ukraine. Russia would think twice before attacking facilities tied to American and European interests. Besides, it’s in Russia’s national interest to pursue rapprochement, as it would benefit from returning to its pre-Obama Cold War 2.0 status as a member of the G8 and an economic peer of the Western world.

Zelenskyy is demanding either NATO membership or, alternatively, the extension of NATO’s Article 5 collective defense agreement to Ukraine. That’s never going to happen. As Trump stated, Zelenskyy holds no cards, so his ability to demand anything from America is non-existent. Even if Trump weren’t in office, you’d never get two-thirds of the U.S. Senate to ratify any treaty obligating America to defend Ukraine.
 
In that case why should Russia agree to a settlement where the aim is to use the stand down to arm Ukraine to the teeth?


And why should Ukraine agree to a settlement where it is forced to disarm while Russia rearms itself to the teeth?


Both should approach a ceasefire with caution. You dont want to go into a ceasefire only to emerge at the other end at a severe disadvantage. If both are not ready, maybe they should fight some more,
 
Frankly, I haven’t seen much evidence from either side that they’re serious about ending the war. Zelenskyy claims he wants peace, but then goes on European media and flatly states he won’t accept any ceasefire that acknowledges Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea—or any of the other territories he’s already lost. Meanwhile, Putin signals he's open to a ceasefire, even as he ramps up military attacks and continues bombing cities.

Sure, one could argue that Putin is simply trying to improve his hand at the negotiating table—such as by reclaiming Russian territory like Kursk Oblast, which Ukraine had seized, rather than being forced to trade captured Ukrainian land just to get his own territory back. But if that’s the case, how exactly do Zelenskyy’s absolutist statements indicate any real interest in a negotiated peace?

Ukraine has, in fact, signaled it's willingness to cede territory to end the war, so long as it receives security assurances.

Warfare typically follows one of two paths. The first involves overwhelming force, especially when paired with advanced technology, to quickly defeat and subjugate a nation in a short period of time. For example, the U.S.-led battle to liberate Kuwait and devastate Saddam’s forces. However, when such decisive battles don’t occur, warfare often devolves into a war of attrition. In such cases, the larger, more powerful nation usually emerges victorious. While American and European support for Biden’s proxy war against Russia has kept Ukraine alive, the patience of American taxpayers has reached its limit—just as Americans grew weary of the Vietnam War and later the Deep State’s 20-year wars in Afghanistan and the Middle East.

What do you think makes the war in Afghanistan a "Deep State" war?

Ending the war via an armistice isn’t “surrendering.” It’s simply a matter of both nations coming to their senses and ending the senseless slaughter. Ukraine’s future security lies in its neutrality, with America and European nations making significant investments in Ukraine. Russia would think twice before attacking facilities tied to American and European interests.

This is just wrong, and blatantly naive. Trump had Afghanistan sign a mineral agreement, and then still negotiated a withdrawal with the Taliban. Fermenting economic investment in Ukraine by American and European firms would not be some kind of actual deterrent against Russia; if that were true Russia would not have invaded in 2014 or 2022. The fact that you think it constitutes an effective deterrent tells me you don't actually understand Russia, or geopolitics, very well.

Besides, it’s in Russia’s national interest to pursue rapprochement, as it would benefit from returning to its pre-Obama Cold War 2.0 status as a member of the G8 and an economic peer of the Western world.

You are, again, conflating what you think makes sense with what Russia believes.

Russia wants NATO's withdrawal from Eastern Europe. It has repeatedly made this demand and it is critical to its strategic security posture. Re-approachment isn't feasible to Russia unless it receives assurances that it will have de facto veto over Eastern European defense matters.
 
As I’ve previously noted, it is common practice for nations to sign treaties to end wars they are losing. Consider the Treaty of Paris (1815), which adjusted France’s borders after Napoleon’s forces were routed at Waterloo; the Treaty of Versailles (1919), which reshaped Europe post-WWI; the various Arab–Israeli wars, each of which produced armistice lines that reflected territorial shifts; and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848), through which Mexico ceded approximately 55 percent of its territory to the United States to end a war it was losing.


The Treaty of Versailles didn't work out so hot.



It worked going by the thesis that it is common practice for nations to sign treaties to end wars they are losing. You cant judge the Treaty of Versailles only from the perspective of one side. It has to be judged from the German side as well. Germany could sign the Treaty and end WWI, or it could keep fighting and risk anihilation. The German decision to accept the Treaty was the correct one. Germany could live to fight another day. Unfortunately it was under Hitler, but the German leadership at the end of WWI cannot expect to know who would be heading Germany in 1933. It could have been someone else.

Nothing stops Ukraine from fighting Russia in future to regain lost territories. Treaties are only as good as parties to them find them useful. Nothing stops Ukraine from fighting Russia in the future to regain what it considers lost territories. Zelensky's every word and body language is a rejection of any cessation of hostilities; and he has as equally committed Ukraine to future seizing the territories, even though he mutters stuff about other means including diplomacy. The west- maybe minus Trump- is also committed to arming up Ukraine after cessation of hostilities. So Ukraine's situation and attitude is similar to that of Imperial Germany in the dying days of WWI.

Funny enough Russia's position is closer to that of the allied nations. It has to accept a settlement, even though all signs point to a frozen conflict to be resumed in the future. France's General Ferdinand Foch did not like the terms of the Treaty at all. He considered them too lenient.

<<<
General Ferdinand Foch, angered by the perceived lenient terms of the Treaty of Versailles, famously said, "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years".
<<<

Foch wanted something more like a dismantling of Germany, with no possibility of a repeat. Maybe what the Russians may also want of Ukraine

If something is signed it may turn out to be nothing but an armistice for twenty years :)
 
It's like he thought he was in charge.


I cannot recall any leader this century, or much of last that felt as entitled as Zelensky. The guy is strange. Very strange. I am inclined to believe he believes he can publicly move the world. The only negotiations he believes in are the ones conducted in public before tv cameras. Once cameras are turned on he becomes uncontrollable. The Oval Office clash being a case in point. Before leaving for the US everyone knew only other of business was a few nice words to the press, then signing the minerals deal. As soon as Zelensky saw camera lights, everything was out the window. This was where he conducts his fights. He had the American public glued to the screens, why not prove to them how he was right, and Trump, Vance, Rubio idiots.

Back in Sept 30th 2022, after a Russian attacks on Kyiv, Zelensky went on tv and presented what he called an emergency accelerated acession into Nato. Somehow he believed his tv performance would move the world and open the doors of Nato to him. He was reminded to go through the regular chanels


 
"Trivia"? I’m not sure why you view historical facts as mere trivia, but c’est la vie.
Yes, it's trivia, dressed up to seem like you're backing up your argument. But when you actually examine it you realize it doesn't do anything to actually address my point, which was not "there's no precedent for a ceasefire" but rather "a ceasefire under present conditions suits neither faction".

Seems I've only recently been noticing this in @Tiger posts - that and a surprising lack of historical knowledge among those "facts."

But the, I've mainly been following Ukraine updates elsewhere and not in this forum.
 
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