Is Trump handing LA effectively?

[OlNate]

I've done my best to politely answer all your questions. By the looks of it now, you didn't like my answers.

No, I just don't understand them, based on everything I've said. By the looks of it now, you don't like my questions.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

You wrote:

Y'know, we tried just letting the protesters do their thing back in 2020. That didn't work so well as "protesters" burnt down entire blocks of cities, looted THOUSANDS of businesses and even set up their own little town in Seattle. We have seen the results of the "hands off" approach ever since the Occupy movement and every time it's resulted in destruction. While it might sound like a nice idea in your head we have ample evidence how the "hands off" approach works in the real world.

I replied:

This is not an accurate description of the 2020 protests, nor is it an accurate description of the police response in the cities across the U.S.

You responded:

Right. I keep forgetting that you live in a whole different world than the rest of us do and that "reality" is different in your world.

With respect to the Floyd-era protests. There were two big fires. One a few days after George Floyd’s death in Minnesota. Another one happened in Wisconsin after the Jacob Blake killing (remember Rittenhouse?). Those were the city blocks that were destroyed.

During this period tens of thousands of Guard were deployed across at least 27 states across the country. The police response throughout this period was robust, competent, and definitely not "hands off." You can make the case it was "hands off" for the Seattle occupied zone that lasted a few weeks. But protests took place all over the country, not just in Seattle.

There was significant damage during the Floyd-era protests, approaching over one billion dollars in damage, but this was largely a result of how widespread and sustained the protests were. Approximately 15 million people took part in the Floyd-era protests, and we know that at least approximately 93% of all those protests were peaceful.

The Occupy movement was far less violent than the Floyd protests. Most Occupy encampments were nuisance issues rather than riots. Nationwide costs were estimated in the tens of millions of dollars, mostly for police overtime and park cleanup, not burned buildings.

U.S. citizens have the constitutional right to engage in non-violent protests. I think we should condemn violence. At the same time, I think in an order to justify Trump's illegal actions, you are distorting what actually occurred during the Floyd and Occupy protests. The riots weren't as horrific as you claim relative to the size of our country, and relative to the broader non-violent protests, and the police and the Guard were very responsive and very effective given the circumstances. And to equate the Floyd and Occupy protests as being equally damaging is kind of ridiculous.

And, for the most part, the vast majority of people behave quite well in large groups and can protest without damaging property or hurting anyway.

 

[Fearandloathing]

You wrote:



I replied:



You responded:



With respect to the Floyd-era protests. There were two big fires. One a few days after George Floyd’s death in Minnesota. Another one happened in Wisconsin after the Jacob Blake killing (remember Rittenhouse?). Those were the city blocks that were destroyed.

During this period tens of thousands of Guard were deployed across at least 27 states across the country. The police response throughout this period was robust, competent, and definitely not "hands off." You can make the case it was "hands off" for the Seattle occupied zone that lasted a few weeks. But protests took place all over the country, not just in Seattle.

There was significant damage during the Floyd-era protests, approaching over one billion dollars in damage, but this was largely a result of how widespread and sustained the protests were. Approximately 15 million people took part in the Floyd-era protests, and we know that at least approximately 93% of all those protests were peaceful.

The Occupy movement was far less violent than the Floyd protests. Most Occupy encampments were nuisance issues rather than riots. Nationwide costs were estimated in the tens of millions of dollars, mostly for police overtime and park cleanup, not burned buildings.

U.S. citizens have the constitutional right to engage in non-violent protests. I think we should condemn violence. At the same time, I think in an order to justify Trump's illegal actions, you are distorting what actually occurred during the Floyd and Occupy protests. The riots weren't as horrific as you claim relative to the size of our country, and relative to the broader non-violent protests, and the police and the Guard were very responsive and very effective given the circumstances. And to equate the Floyd and Occupy protests as being equally damaging is kind of ridiculous.

And, for the most part, the vast majority of people behave quite well in large groups and can protest without damaging property or hurting anyway.

Well documented.

In order to get to the kind of race riot the right would like to see, would be Rodney King.

Here, in Canada many in high places were sure it was the end of "united" in United States

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Illegal aliens (aka undocumented immigrants) are subject to deportation.

I am pushing back against the argument that is "insane" to have a large number of illegal immigrants in the U.S.

Do I have to state the obvious?

The truth is they don't bother anyone, and they are hard workers who contribute to our communities. The reason why they haven't already been deported is because the illegal immigrants are helpful.

They are subject to deportation, yes, but this continual push by Trump supporters to describe them as hardened criminals who are unworthy of respect and dignity, is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard in my life, and the people who view illegal immigration as the only issue that matters are racists as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Fearandloathing]

I am pushing back against the argument that is "insane" to have a large number of illegal immigrants in the U.S.

Do I have to state the obvious?

The truth is they don't bother anyone, and they are hard workers who contribute to our communities. The reason why they haven't already been deported is because the illegal immigrants are helpful.

They are subject to deportation, yes, but this continual push by Trump supporters to describe them as hardened criminals who are unworthy of respect and dignity, is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard in my life, and the people who view illegal immigration as the only issue that matters are racists as far as I'm concerned.

"Illegals" have been a necessary part of the American economy since Zachary Taylor

 

[Gardener]

This is not an accurate description of the 2020 protests, nor is it an accurate description of the police response in the cities across the U.S.

Yes, you have no problem whatsoever with domestic terrorists burning down the businesses of innocent people.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Yes, you have no problem whatsoever with domestic terrorists burning down the businesses of innocent people.

Logic was never a big thing with you as it

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes, you have no problem whatsoever with domestic terrorists burning down the businesses of innocent people.

That's quite a leap Gardener. You sound like a Trump supporter.

 

[Gardener]

That's quite a leap Gardener. You sound like a Trump supporter.

I am not. I did not support either candidate.

I am a small business owner, however.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes, you have no problem whatsoever with domestic terrorists burning down the businesses of innocent people.

This sort of all-or-nothing attitude is what got us into the Iraq War.

We must either destroy any chance of Saddam having WMD, or we are all going to die.

It's the same thinking.

Now Trump supporters think:

We must declare martial law and immediately militarize every city in the U.S. and engage in mass deportations of every single illegal immigrant we can find or our country is going to end.

 

[Lutherf]

You wrote:



I replied:



You responded:



With respect to the Floyd-era protests. There were two big fires. One a few days after George Floyd’s death in Minnesota. Another one happened in Wisconsin after the Jacob Blake killing (remember Rittenhouse?). Those were the city blocks that were destroyed.

During this period tens of thousands of Guard were deployed across at least 27 states across the country. The police response throughout this period was robust, competent, and definitely not "hands off." You can make the case it was "hands off" for the Seattle occupied zone that lasted a few weeks. But protests took place all over the country, not just in Seattle.

There was significant damage during the Floyd-era protests, approaching over one billion dollars in damage, but this was largely a result of how widespread and sustained the protests were. Approximately 15 million people took part in the Floyd-era protests, and we know that at least approximately 93% of all those protests were peaceful.

The Occupy movement was far less violent than the Floyd protests. Most Occupy encampments were nuisance issues rather than riots. Nationwide costs were estimated in the tens of millions of dollars, mostly for police overtime and park cleanup, not burned buildings.

U.S. citizens have the constitutional right to engage in non-violent protests. I think we should condemn violence. At the same time, I think in an order to justify Trump's illegal actions, you are distorting what actually occurred during the Floyd and Occupy protests. The riots weren't as horrific as you claim relative to the size of our country, and relative to the broader non-violent protests, and the police and the Guard were very responsive and very effective given the circumstances. And to equate the Floyd and Occupy protests as being equally damaging is kind of ridiculous.

And, for the most part, the vast majority of people behave quite well in large groups and can protest without damaging property or hurting anyway.

That's an interesting way of looking at things. There were hundreds of riots all across the country that resulted in billions of dollars in damage as well as myriad injuries to police and even a bunch of deaths. The "mostly peaceful" aspect of all that kind of goes out the window at all that even based on left wing standards. While there were peaceful protests, and even peaceful protesters standing side by side with violent protesters, the net effect was violence. Do you, for example, consider the J6 riot to be "mostly peaceful" because the vast majority of those protesters were simply trespassing and chanting. Why do you insist on such a double standard?

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Okay, prove it. Prove it's 30 million. The 30 million figure is a right wing extremist talking point.

It's very convenient to try to obfuscate with this technique when the whole problem is we haven't even been able to count as people are coming in!

One of the reasons we have immigration laws in the first place is so we can keep track of who's coming into the country. If people are just breaking and entering in the dead of night, we don't know they are here.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

It's very convenient to try to obfuscate with this technique when the whole problem is we haven't even been able to count as people are coming in!

One of the reasons we have immigration laws in the first place is so we can keep track of who's coming into the country. If people are just breaking and entering in the dead of night, we don't know they are here.

I want to know on what basis people are making the claim that they estimate 30 million illegal immigrants reside in the country. If they have no basis then they cannot make that claim and they should just simply say, "I dunno, a lot."

 

[ttwtt78640]

I want to know on what basis people are making the claim that they estimate 30 million illegal immigrants reside in the country. If they have no basis then they cannot make that claim and they should just simply say, "I dunno, a lot."

Yep, we can agree that there are “a lot” of illegal aliens currently inside the US.

 

[Pyrite]

Are they looting? How about clocking a major highway? Throwing bricks at vehicles? Setting vehicles on fire?

Post #321


Assaulting and wounding 140 law enforcement agents? Is the leader of the pack the President of the United States?

Why, no, that's not happening in LA.

But it happened in the trump-instigated Jan 6 violent assault on the Capitol, on Congress, the Vice-President - and on our democratic system.

Jan 6 was much more violent and much more dangerous. But MAGA? It stupidly (and dishonestly) refuses to accept the gravity of what happened on that day. Instead, the trump cult bashes non-MAGA Americans for much lesser - and, in many cases, made-up - incidents.

MAGA isn't democratic. And it sure as hell isn't pro-America.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

I want to know on what basis people are making the claim that they estimate 30 million illegal immigrants reside in the country. If they have no basis then they cannot make that claim and they should just simply say, "I dunno, a lot."

Sure.

But I don't know that anyone can prove whatever number they want to believe at this point. The only thing I think we can say for sure is it's larger than whatever number is official.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

That's an interesting way of looking at things. There were hundreds of riots all across the country that resulted in billions of dollars in damage as well as myriad injuries to police and even a bunch of deaths. The "mostly peaceful" aspect of all that kind of goes out the window at all that even based on left wing standards.

The U.S. is one of the largest countries in the world. I can't remember, but I think we are the third largest country in the world in terms of population. We have something like 330 million to 340 million people in the U.S. Somewhere between 13 million to 15 million protested in the Floyd-era protests. I can't remember how many people were charged with a federal charge related to the protests, but I think it was something like 1,000 people. Let's just say 2,000 people as a conservative estimate, take 2,000 by 13 mil, and that's 0.00015 or 0.015% of the total population of protestors. I never saw the data for local/state charges so you can develop your own estimate for that.

The 2 billion dollars in economic damage and violence was spread out across the entire country. Our country has something like 80 trillion dollars in real estate value. The economic damage from the Floyd-era riots was 2 something billion, so that's 0.000025 or 0.0025% of the total value of all real estate in the U.S.

So, yeah, I think you can say it was mostly peaceful if you look at things from that perspective.

While there were peaceful protests, and even peaceful protesters standing side by side with violent protesters, the net effect was violence. Do you, for example, consider the J6 riot to be "mostly peaceful" because the vast majority of those protesters were simply trespassing and chanting. Why do you insist on such a double standard?

10,000 people marched on the Capitol Building. Lower bound of the estimate is that 2,000 engaged in violence or entered the building. That's 20% of the total.

So I don't care how you describe it verbally, but I can say that the Floyd riots were more peaceful in terms of the percentage of protestors who were caught engaging in violence compared to the Jan 6th insurrection.

I think the Jan 6th insurrection is bad for different reasons than just the violence. For example, the whole point was to overturn the election that Biden legitimately won, and I think that has to be taken into account when you think about the "Wrongness" of the their actions.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Sure.

But I don't know that anyone can prove whatever number they want to believe at this point. The only thing I think we can say for sure is it's larger than whatever number is official.

What degree of accuracy are you looking for? I think it's impossible to know precisely, but we can develop a rough estimate.

 

[Lutherf]

The U.S. is one of the largest countries in the world. I can't remember, but I think we are the third largest country in the world in terms of population. We have something like 330 million to 340 million people in the U.S. Somewhere between 13 million to 15 million protested in the Floyd-era protests. I can't remember how many people were charged with a federal charge related to the protests, but I think it was something like 1,000 people. Let's just say 2,000 people as a conservative estimate, take 2,000 by 13 mil, and that's 0.00015 or 0.015% of the total population of protestors. I never saw the data for local/state charges so you can develop your own estimate for that.

The 2 billion dollars in economic damage and violence was spread out across the entire country. Our country has something like 80 trillion dollars in real estate value. The economic damage from the Floyd-era riots was 2 something billion, so that's 0.000025 or 0.0025% of the total value of all real estate in the U.S.

So, yeah, I think you can say it was mostly peaceful if you look at things from that perspective.



10,000 people marched on the Capitol Building. Lower bound of the estimate is that 2,000 engaged in violence or entered the building. That's 20% of the total.

So I don't care how you describe it verbally, but I can say that the Floyd riots were more peaceful in terms of the percentage of protestors who were caught engaging in violence compared to the Jan 6th insurrection.

I think the Jan 6th insurrection is bad for different reasons than just the violence. For example, the whole point was to overturn the election that Biden legitimately won, and I think that has to be taken into account when you think about the "Wrongness" of the their actions.

The George Floyd riots also went on for a month or more. J6 was a matter of hours.

 

[TamleeB]

Post #321


Assaulting and wounding 140 law enforcement agents? Is the leader of the pack the President of the United States?

Why, no, that's not happening in LA.

But it happened in the trump-instigated Jan 6 violent assault on the Capitol, on Congress, the Vice-President - and on our democratic system.

Jan 6 was much more violent and much more dangerous. But MAGA? It stupidly (and dishonestly) refuses to accept the gravity of what happened on that day. Instead, the trump cult bashes non-MAGA Americans for much lesser - and, in many cases, made-up - incidents.

MAGA isn't democratic. And it sure as hell isn't pro-America.

January 6th has nothing to do with what we are currently witnessing. This thread is about LA. Please at least pretend to focus.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

What degree of accuracy are you looking for? I think it's impossible to know precisely, but we can develop a rough estimate.

Based on what data?

This is the problem.

 

[bythoughts]

Trump only seems interested in setting precedent for anti-democratic actions. There are lots of ways to catch illegal immigrants and deport them. Prisons run by Salvadoran dictators, revocations of permanent residency for tame articles about the Student Senate, and sending the Marines to Los Angeles don't seem to advance that objective. Basically the question is: is Trump (a) trying to scare all the illegal immigrants out, (b) tapping his WWE buddies' expertise on how to do violence theater for the True Believers, (c) preparing for an actual coup, or (d) all of the above?

 

[Fearandloathing]

I am not. I did not support either candidate.

I am a small business owner, however.

So your business was burned down or were you speaking figuratively?

Is this an issue with you are were you burned out?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

The George Floyd riots also went on for a month or more. J6 was a matter of hours.

So what?

If an entire city block can burn down in a matter of hours due to sustained winds is it no big deal?

 

[TamleeB]

So what?

If an entire city block can burn down in a matter of hours due to sustained winds is it no big deal?