Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Forgive me if I seem like a pest, but can you cite a specific book and possibly even a bit about
what chapter to look in, I'm not looking to take a lot of time digging this up, please help me out here.

I'm going to save you even more time and just tell you. Reading the books will not simply give you an answer. You won't find "progressive collapse" in many textbooks, period. The introductory texts will give you the analytical tools to determine that for yourself. Ready to acquire analytical tools?

You know F=ma, right? That's what the textbook is going to tell you, along with the definitions of the variable appearing in the equation. This is an equation of motion.

F: net force on an object
m: mass of the object
a: resulting acceleration of object

Net force means the single resulting force from summing all forces acting on the object (both magnitude and direction). So, if there are two forces acting in opposition, the net force acting on the object is the sum of a positive and negative number, otherwise known as a difference (i.e. subtraction). If there is 1lb of force acting to push to the left, and two pounds acting to push towards the right, the net force will be 1 pound to the right.

Rearranging to solve for acceleration:

a = F/m

it's apparent the acceleration will be in the direction of the net balance of force.

In the case of a theoretical progressive collapse, the mass m is the mass of the upper section plus accumulated debris, minus debris which has been shed/expelled. The forces acting on the upper section are gravity (mg) and a resistive force (arising from multiple sources but all acting in opposition to downward motion). Only if the resistive force exceeds the force of gravity will the object accelerate upwards. This is typically called 'deceleration' - acceleration opposite to the direction of motion - or 'slowing down'.

Therefore, your question is resolved by answering this question: is it possible for the lower section to offer less resistance (at least on average) than the force of gravity acting on the upper section?

Digest this for a moment.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The answer to that question is YES, it is possible. Is it possible with steel columns? Yes. Is it possible that even steel column characteristics don't matter much when it comes to WTC1/2? Yes.

There is a difference between the overall static capacity (a force) of a structure and the energy (mechanical work) consumed in crushing the same structure. The energy expended over a given distance can be equated to the average force through the relation:

∫W=F.xdx (up to this point, everything's basic mechanics)

In the case of steel columns, hinge buckling and fracture are two failure modes which can lead to an average force less than the static capacity. Consider the load-displacement relation for a steel column in 3-hinge buckling offered by Bazant:

This graph depicts the the typical shape of resistive force a steel column affords under the above stated conditions. It's scaled by overall capacity and has parametric input which can alter the shape somewhat - sharpen/flatten the peak, increase/decrease width of the peak, and so on - but that's the basic shape. A phase of elastic compression with roughly linear increase in force according to the distance compressed, followed by a period of partially recoverable plastic deformation in the vicinity of the peak, followed by development of bends and fully plastic deformation with very little resistance compared to the peak.

In order to get the average force, it's only necessary to take the area under that curve (energy) and divide it by the distance traveled. This is done in Bazant's figure, and it's the dashed "Maxwell line". The opposing downward force of gravity, mg, is also shown. If the Maxwell line is below mg (ignoring other resistive forces for the moment), then there will be net acceleration downward in the crushing of a column, otherwise deceleration if above, and constant average velocity if equal. The example from Bazant has a Maxwell line below mg, therefore experiences net acceleration.

But that's an average over an entire story. If one were able to accurately record the motion of a completely rigid "upper section" which struck the columns end-to-end in perfect alignment (as in both the Bazant and Szamboti scenario), there would be deceleration because the peak force exceeds mg.


The relevant questions now are:

1) is such a scenario applicable or even realistic?
2) if not, would a deceleration be expected?
3) if a deceleration is present, can it be observed?

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

For me, the answers to the above questions are: No, Maybe, and It Was.

But we can sidestep all of that by noting that no one disputes the fact that perfect column alignment is IMPOSSIBLE after only a few stories' descent, therefore the properties of steel columns in axial compression don't matter by that point. What matters is the sort of resistance offered by a hodge-podge of deformed column ends and floor slabs and DEBRIS in free motion.

It is unreasonable to expect that the upper section could be separated, displaced two feet in each horizontal direction and released, and have the upper section remain supported. There are no viable load paths which could prevent the upper section from acquiring eccentricity due to two sides hanging out over air. All perimeter ends miss completely. As eccentricity increases, overall capacity decreases. Once in angular motion, capacity would have to INCREASE to arrest that motion. It's a snowball effect.

This presupposes that the floor slabs could bear the load of the other columns, where they're not just hanging in air. But, wait... what if the cut isn't at floor level? The upper section would have to drop until making contact with floor, beams or spandrels. Is it possible that entanglement of spandrels alone would slow descent, if only momentarily? I'd say no, but have nothing in the way of calculations to support it. I think the notion of doing hand calculations to support or refute such an idea absurd; it's a system with complex 3D geometry with heterogeneous components where relatively small angles and displacements affect a residual capacity calculation tremendously. Highly non-linear.

Suffice to say, all that matters to answer your original concern is this: is it possible that there is a geometry which doesn't afford a capacity at least sufficient to support the static load? Yes, obviously. Displace it enough to the side and it won't even stand. Even though the bottom is being crushed, there would never be a point where it decelerates, because you don't get an FOS > 1 from random geometry and rubble for load bearing surfaces.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

So it's possible to plow through (which ain't the same as crush everything in) the lower section without decelerating, as far as structural resistance goes. That leaves the component of resistive force due to momentum exchange, and this is the part Tony Szamboti could help you with since it should be fresh in his mind from our recent argument. Secondary effects and velocity dependent effects (like back pressure from air expulsion and concrete comminution) are not capable of supporting the static load, so will not cause deceleration in and of themselves.

 

[radioman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

So it's possible to plow through (which ain't the same as crush everything in) the lower section without decelerating, as far as structural resistance goes. That leaves the component of resistive force due to momentum exchange, and this is the part Tony Szamboti could help you with since it should be fresh in his mind from our recent argument. Secondary effects and velocity dependent effects (like back pressure from air expulsion and concrete comminution) are not capable of supporting the static load, so will not cause deceleration in and of themselves.

-----------------

So....all your many posts on this subject, all your analysis which supports the NIST and Bazant.
Do you think you won anyone over, changed any minds?
The conspiracy theorists will respond with a collective, "Nuh-uh"...and continue on their merry (sort of) way.
Thanks for the effort.eace

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

-----------------

So....all your many posts on this subject, all your analysis which supports the NIST and Bazant.
Do you think you won anyone over, changed any minds?
The conspiracy theorists will respond with a collective, "Nuh-uh"...and continue on their merry (sort of) way.
Thanks for the effort.eace

I hate to say this... but... what we have is both a failure of imagination... and a failure in observation. The tops did NOT descend without any translation as observed. There was apparently pre release distortion of the frame leading to the translation. The translation was a result of the damage and strength loss not being symmetrical over the foot print. Once this got going the axial resistance was driven rapidly to 0 and the columns were out of the picture in slowing the downward motion.

 

[Strucker]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

-----------------

So....all your many posts on this subject, all your analysis which supports the NIST and Bazant.
Do you think you won anyone over, changed any minds?
The conspiracy theorists will respond with a collective, "Nuh-uh"...and continue on their merry (sort of) way.
Thanks for the effort.eace

And really, they should embrace the conventional view. It is, after all, also a conspiracy theory (by definition, mind you: some people conspired, secretly and successfully, to commit one of the single biggest acts of instantaneous murder in history).

But this conspiracy theory has the added bonus of actually being true.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

thanks for the jab.:mrgreen:
glad you can't take any jabs back.

never said the oct was true.
that does not mean your stance is. just saying.

No 'jab' intended Mike, and I'm sorry you took it that way.

I think we should confine ourselves to truthful statements, that's all. I've been on both sides, and only 1 can be true and accurate.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

No 'jab' intended Mike, and I'm sorry you took it that way.

I think we should confine ourselves to truthful statements, that's all. I've been on both sides, and only 1 can be true and accurate.

We actually agree on this only we disagree with what is true and accurate

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

-----------------

So....all your many posts on this subject, all your analysis which supports the NIST...

Side note: While a great deal of the work by NIST is excellent - particularly the more "bean counting" aspects of engineering - I do disagree with a number of their conclusions. So what? Who am I? All the same, I think it possible and even probable that they erred in a number of crucial high-level aspects, while executing the basic bulk of the grunt work very nicely. Sadly, if I'm correct (and very little of this opinion is based on my own analyses), it taints what is otherwise a decent body of work.

Because of this, I don't appeal to or defend NIST much at all. I've relied on them a couple of times in this forum, one was max temperatures of the fires, can't remember the other case. But neither do I rail against them much at all. I had a few rants when things were uncovered, but I think they gave it a college try.

Call me middle of the road on NIST.

...and Bazant.

Side note two: pretty much the same thing, except I do defend a lot of Bazant's work. The analytical work of Bazant is top-notch, no doubt about it. I learned a lot from going through his papers; I consider it mandatory reading (with comprehension!) for anyone wishing to discuss the mechanics of collapse, regardless of which side you're on. If you don't know Bazant, you'd better have independently derived a similar framework if you want to join the discussion...

Why do I defend Bazant? Because most (not all) criticisms range from honest misunderstanding to steaming crocks of ****.

The concern I have with his work (also Greening, Seffen, Benson) is the applicability. All are very simple idealized models which are academic treatments of the engineering mechanics and NOT narratives or descriptions of the collapse. Benson alone elucidates a model (vertical avalanche) which has some physical foundations in the actual mechanics of the tower collapses. No surprise, then, that it fits the observables better to a statistically significant margin using Bayesian analysis. It is the superior theory, and much closer to a narrative framed in mathematics.

The real collapses were chaotic in the non-buzzword sense of the term. Discontinuous, heterogeneous material and structure in 3D, with fracture as a dominant mode of failure, ballistic trajectories of any free bodies... that's a "wicked problem" way outside the purvey of analytical mechanics and, in my opinion, FEA as well. The mistake a lot of people make is taking his analysis as a literal description of the collapses. And it's not just anti-CDers but also CDers like Tony Szamboti and, remarkably, Bazant himself!

This bears repeating: Bazant's work is NOT a model of the actual collapses.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Do you think you won anyone over, changed any minds?

A handful in several years' time. Pretty pathetic, actually. Is it my role in that outcome that's pathetic? Others can judge that.

The conspiracy theorists will respond with a collective, "Nuh-uh"...and continue on their merry (sort of) way.

Yep, that's pretty much how it goes. Quite literally around 99% rate.

The few rare exceptions have been quite rewarding. Some people do get it and, once they do, it's pretty interesting to watch the adjustment. Then, all of a sudden, the argument stops and the conversation rapidly evolves. It takes a rare quality to abandon long-held beliefs in the face of reason. I think far more people are capable of understanding but their belief systems prevent them from processing.

The most important aspect of all this argumentation is that high-level points - the meta-picture, if you will - is ALWAYS missed. 100% of the time! No one has EVER discerned without being told that NONE of these arguments really go to the core of CD or no CD. I'm not a CDer but, if I were, my posts would look exactly the same. When the argument doesn't actually go towards resolving that question, it cannot be said that my arguments refuting "something" is anti-CD. All it says is - no, someone else's arguments fall short of proving CD. Or disproving it, as the case may be.

Thanks for the effort.eace

You're welcome and, in the words of Eeyore, "thanks for noticin'."

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

once upon a time ... there were these 19 seriously angry Arab Muslim Jihadists
who hated AMERICA because it was a free country, and so set about to make a statement.
The decided to hijack commercial airliners and crash them into buildings, and to be sure that
their statement was a big one, they had to choose buildings that were very famous, and having
connections to wealth & power certainly didn't hurt either. So they planed to crash airliners into
the WTC towers & for good measure, hit the PENTAGON also. They trained hard, learning to fly
single engine aircraft at first but then got simulator time on commercial airliner type aircraft.
......

oh well so much for the bed-time stories ...

A! America
are we MAD AS HELL
yet?

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

And so you see there really wasn't any interest after all. I'm reminded of the robotic vacuum cleaners that bump into things randomly, then change direction.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Over the decade I listened, evaluated, and have come to believe the truthers are wrong. Far too much evidence they want to or blatantly do ignore proves them wrong. Sadly I have a close family member that is a truther extremist. Is there any way to bring him back to reality. Existing truthers need not apply.

What in the WORLD is a truther

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

What in the WORLD is a truther

Look up Patriots question 9/11
.......... Pilots for 9/11 truth

+ Dr. David Ray Griffin, Johnathan Cole PE, Dr. Morgan Reynolds, John Lear, David Chandler,
and the list goes on......

Count me as one aging disciple of Mario Savio .....

and as we all know .... there were no hijacked airliners on 9/11/2001!

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Look up Patriots question 9/11
.......... Pilots for 9/11 truth

+ Dr. David Ray Griffin, Johnathan Cole PE, Dr. Morgan Reynolds, John Lear, David Chandler,
and the list goes on......

Count me as one aging disciple of Mario Savio .....

and as we all know .... there were no hijacked airliners on 9/11/2001!

As anyone who understands anything and is able to think logically there were 4 hijacked airliners on 911. Those who think (or is often the case deliberately lie about it) do not deserve to be taken seriously

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Look up Patriots question 9/11
.......... Pilots for 9/11 truth

+ Dr. David Ray Griffin, Johnathan Cole PE, Dr. Morgan Reynolds, John Lear, David Chandler,
and the list goes on......

Count me as one aging disciple of Mario Savio .....

and as we all know .... there were no hijacked airliners on 9/11/2001!

once upon a time... the US experienced a tragic event....on 9/11/2001..
Then a few individuals looked at that event as a way to make money by writting books based on half truths or playing the "what if" theme. Web sites were born. Trinkets could be purchased to support the effort. Conventions were hosted. With over 10 years of time. the results are the same. nothing new. nothing solved regarding their explanations. Except, the few who worship the sites and books as if a new religion.:mrgreen:

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

once upon a time... the US experienced a tragic event....on 9/11/2001..
Then a few individuals looked at that event as a way to make money by writting books based on half truths or playing the "what if" theme. Web sites were born. Trinkets could be purchased to support the effort. Conventions were hosted. With over 10 years of time. the results are the same. nothing new. nothing solved regarding their explanations. Except, the few who worship the sites and books as if a new religion.:mrgreen:

I am not selling a book, I am not even recommending that anybody buy
any of the books or CDs or DVDs or whatever,
All I'm asking is that people look at the events of 9/11/2001
keeping in mind fundamental principles of physics.

Can YOU personally justify the argument for an airliner having crashed into the PENTAGON?

Truly the emperor is NAKED!

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I am not selling a book, I am not even recommending that anybody buy
any of the books or CDs or DVDs or whatever,
All I'm asking is that people look at the events of 9/11/2001
keeping in mind fundamental principles of physics.

Can YOU personally justify the argument for an airliner having crashed into the PENTAGON?

Truly the emperor is NAKED!

Yes in fact a plane crashing at the pentagon is the only possible logical conclusion. all other conclusions are pure fantasy

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I am not selling a book, I am not even recommending that anybody buy
any of the books or CDs or DVDs or whatever,
All I'm asking is that people look at the events of 9/11/2001
keeping in mind fundamental principles of physics.

Can YOU personally justify the argument for an airliner having crashed into the PENTAGON?

Truly the emperor is NAKED!

your the one who started the once upon a time... and mention authors like DRG and other organizations P4T writting half truths and playing the what if game.

MK. here is a clue..... Quit spouting the govt report is wrong. By doing so does not in itself make another explantion true.
Show us why your stance is true. You brought up the Pentagon. Show why your point is valid. You were never able to defend your cgi stance. CGI is not a popular explanation, even amoung those who support explanation that no plane hit the Penatagon.

So what if you are a govt disinfo agent posting here to confuse the masses. What if that is true. Then every post you made should be ignored. I have no evidence of this. but what if?

truly you are naked.:mrgreen:

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

For me, the answers to the above questions are: No, Maybe, and It Was.

But we can sidestep all of that by noting that no one disputes the fact that perfect column alignment is IMPOSSIBLE after only a few stories' descent, therefore the properties of steel columns in axial compression don't matter by that point. What matters is the sort of resistance offered by a hodge-podge of deformed column ends and floor slabs and DEBRIS in free motion.

It is unreasonable to expect that the upper section could be separated, displaced two feet in each horizontal direction and released, and have the upper section remain supported. There are no viable load paths which could prevent the upper section from acquiring eccentricity due to two sides hanging out over air. All perimeter ends miss completely. As eccentricity increases, overall capacity decreases. Once in angular motion, capacity would have to INCREASE to arrest that motion. It's a snowball effect.

This presupposes that the floor slabs could bear the load of the other columns, where they're not just hanging in air. But, wait... what if the cut isn't at floor level? The upper section would have to drop until making contact with floor, beams or spandrels. Is it possible that entanglement of spandrels alone would slow descent, if only momentarily? I'd say no, but have nothing in the way of calculations to support it. I think the notion of doing hand calculations to support or refute such an idea absurd; it's a system with complex 3D geometry with heterogeneous components where relatively small angles and displacements affect a residual capacity calculation tremendously. Highly non-linear.

Suffice to say, all that matters to answer your original concern is this: is it possible that there is a geometry which doesn't afford a capacity at least sufficient to support the static load? Yes, obviously. Displace it enough to the side and it won't even stand. Even though the bottom is being crushed, there would never be a point where it decelerates, because you don't get an FOS > 1 from random geometry and rubble for load bearing surfaces.

It is really only the first several stories of the collapse that are in question. I would agree that once a sufficient amount of momentum is involved and alignment of columns can be said to have been somewhat random that the collapse would be self propagating.

That said the complete horizontal propagation across the 98th floor in the North Tower and the descent through the first story are both problematic and are not explained by the official story with any detail. They are more or less presumed. The NIST load distributions do not support this presumption.

The fall through the first several stories is also problematic for a natural collapse since there is no deceleration when impacts should have been occurring. NIST relies on Zdenek Bazant for this and it has now been shown that he grossly overestimated the available kinetic energy and grossly underestimated the column energy absorption capacity.

Anyone advocating a natural collapse needs to purport that the steel column temperatures were extraordinarily high at the 98th floor (where there was essentially no aircraft impact damage) and for the columns of the upper and lower sections to somehow be misaligned immediately after the fall through the first story. NIST found no physical evidence that the columns experienced high temperatures and inertia of the upper section would ensure the columns would not be misaligned for the first couple of stories before other interactions could occur and cause it.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

on the subject of "cure a truther" I'm reminded of the scene where good God fearin' folk would as much as kidnap one of their own, who had been led astray by a cult and they would "deprogram" said victim of a cult. oh my!

OK, so if this "trutherism" is a cult, and people need to be "deprogrammed" well, so be it.

HOWEVER here is my take on things:
The "collapse" of WTC 1,2 & 7 are far too neat & coherent to be the product of chaotic forces.
and the totality of destruction is also a factor.

& Note the hit to the Pentagon, it is alleged that an airliner struck the Pentagon at an angle and
made a hole in a blast resistant wall and then 99% of said aircraft entered the building through that hole.
Right..... & I'm the easter bunny!

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

It is really only the first several stories of the collapse that are in question. I would agree that once a sufficient amount of momentum is involved and alignment of columns can be said to have been somewhat random that the collapse would be self propagating.

Yes. I'm very carefully talking in "possibilities" because the issue was framed as "how can it be possible?" It is possible, and that's all I set out to demonstrate - not that it's necessary and certainly not at all points in any generic collapse or the towers in particular. That makes it somewhat peripheral to the larger discussion of the collapse dynamics, of course. However, I feel that some incredulities expressed arise from an intuition-derived belief that certain things are impossible. If a person believes something to be impossible, it's unlikely they'll ever dig deep enough to discover they're wrong and see under what conditions it is possible. That perspective could only be considered a more informed judgement.

That said the complete horizontal propagation across the 98th floor in the North Tower and the descent through the first story are both problematic..

I at least agree with the horizontal propagation. It is pretty astonishing; beyond me.

...and are not explained by the official story with any detail. They are more or less presumed.

I believe this to be correct as well.

Anyone advocating a natural collapse needs to purport that the steel column temperatures were extraordinarily high at the 98th floor (where there was essentially no aircraft impact damage)...

The very highest elevation of the split is the 98th floor. Moving towards south and east, the bifurcation is lower. Even a hinge at 98 presumes the loss of capacity in the core and south face occurs lower. Just sayin'.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

on the subject of "cure a truther" I'm reminded of the scene where good God fearin' folk would as much as kidnap one of their own, who had been led astray by a cult and they would "deprogram" said victim of a cult. oh my!

OK, so if this "trutherism" is a cult, and people need to be "deprogrammed" well, so be it.

HOWEVER here is my take on things:
The "collapse" of WTC 1,2 & 7 are far too neat & coherent to be the product of chaotic forces.
and the totality of destruction is also a factor.

& Note the hit to the Pentagon, it is alleged that an airliner struck the Pentagon at an angle and
made a hole in a blast resistant wall and then 99% of said aircraft entered the building through that hole.
Right..... & I'm the easter bunny!

Well since the collapses were caused by the impacts and fires and it was a plane that hit the Pentagon I guess somehow you must be the Easter bunny.
BTW next Easter I don't want none of that hollow Easter chocolate I want solid quality chocolate bunnies

 

[Occam's Razor]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Well since the collapses were caused by the impacts and fires and it was a plane that hit the Pentagon I guess somehow you must be the Easter bunny.
BTW next Easter I don't want none of that hollow Easter chocolate I want solid quality chocolate bunnies

LMAO... we can see the national radar records, know the transponders were shut off, how the planes were hijacked, but it's a violation of national security to show video of an actual plane impacting the pentagon...

Those bunnies aren't hollow, you just aren't allowed to see the chocolate!