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Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

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Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Since the columns were "pinned" to the foundation and were themselves much more stout, the opposite would seem to be true. They are not bearing weight, they are countering lateral forces. The weight of the columns doesn't matter, their stiffness does.

I don't have time to track down the info for you right now, but it's out there. However, given that the twin towers were attacked twice, and the rise of "global terrorism", I can understand why that info isn't all over the place.

As for the lack of demand for that info... again, very very few are going to rock their world by getting involved.

To consider the importance of the weight of horizontal steel in the core, how many feet of steel were there in the core?

There were 12 times 147 feet of vertical column steel. So that was 564 feet.

The core was 135 by 85 feet with a 6 by 8 - 1 array of columns. So the horizontal beams would be about

(6 * 135) + (8 * 85) or 1490 feet of horizontal steel at every level. So there were more than 2.5 times as many horizontal feet of steel as there were of vertical in the core. And we don't know what it weighed.

Ridiculous! And people dismiss it as unimportant! You think I haven't looked but you say it is OUT THERE.

LOL

psik
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Sigh this has all been done and is repetitious.
How was it left defencless? there was no exercise that did anything of the sort. The only one I heard truthers try and claim was that fighters were taken away from the eastern seaboard. Do you have another set of exercises that did other things? Are you creating a new line on truther BS that no one has heard before or is it the same vigilant Guardian crap that truthers don't understand?

First off, if you can't have a conversation without derogatory labeling (truther), you are already on very weak footing.

Next, I'm not a truther. I don't visit their websites, nor belong to any group of the sort. All of my research is independent.

This weak footing is already causing you to make assumptions of me that don't apply. If this is your basis of refutation... you are already losing the debate.

As for the defenseless statement, we'll get there in due time. For now, as I said, we will start at the top of the list.

This evening I will start a thread with this list and document the sources for each item. If you cannot refute respectfully with credible citations, you will lose that point.

Lastly, one of my guiding principles is this... "truth is the bastard third cousin of fact. Truth relies on, and is sometimes dependent upon belief systems. Facts are not. Facts exist as the same for all rational, sane observers."

It might be smart to think about that in your own responses.

I've been at this for years, my arguments have been distilled down to provable facts, often relying on their own words and documents. Yes, I've been through this a hundred times with a hundred people just like you... it's all rehash. BUT.... because my posts are filled with search terms and keywords, people looking for this information will have these posts in their results. Yours... not so much. Nothing pleases me more than showing others how to decisively put down official CT supporters and their offhand blanket dismissals.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

First off, if you can't have a conversation without derogatory labeling (truther), you are already on very weak footing.

Next, I'm not a truther. I don't visit their websites, nor belong to any group of the sort. All of my research is independent.

This weak footing is already causing you to make assumptions of me that don't apply. If this is your basis of refutation... you are already losing the debate.

As for the defenseless statement, we'll get there in due time. For now, as I said, we will start at the top of the list.

This evening I will start a thread with this list and document the sources for each item. If you cannot refute respectfully with credible citations, you will lose that point.

Lastly, one of my guiding principles is this... "truth is the bastard third cousin of fact. Truth relies on, and is sometimes dependent upon belief systems. Facts are not. Facts exist as the same for all rational, sane observers."

It might be smart to think about that in your own responses.

I've been at this for years, my arguments have been distilled down to provable facts, often relying on their own words and documents. Yes, I've been through this a hundred times with a hundred people just like you... it's all rehash. BUT.... because my posts are filled with search terms and keywords, people looking for this information will have these posts in their results. Yours... not so much. Nothing pleases me more than showing others how to decisively put down official CT supporters and their offhand blanket dismissals.

Just what the world needs another truther thread
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

here were 12 times 147 feet of vertical column steel. So that was 564 feet.

Sorry, I meant that to be "on each level" if it was not obvious.

psik
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Except that there is no speculation. Most of this is from THEIR OWN WORDS! THEY made the connections. Not me.

And I'm sick of people misusing the word "proof" to hide behind. This is evidence, not proof. and no, it's not circumstantial... it's corroborative evidence. Big difference. Critical difference. You should do some research to remove that bit of ignorance you rely on.

Further, there is FAR more evidence here pointing to motive, means and opportunity than exists for 19 hijackers... considering there is no direct evidence that they ever even boarded the planes. None. zip. nada.

You have been researching for a matter of years, and I would just like to ask your take on a particular
nit in the whole picture. Have you ever heard of Dr. Morgan Reynolds? He and several others have
published statements that support the idea of "FLT175" being FAKE, and the arguments are quite
convincing .... what is your take on this? Please enlighten me.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I want to focus on the "petty" detail a moment longer. Please note, Henry David, that this petty detail was raised by someone else in an apparent attempt to blithely dismiss the toatlity of my well-founded and well-elucidated frustration - which is dealing with dumbasses, not defending the official story.

Is it really true that people can understand physics on a purely "verbal" level without the ability to perform mathematical computation? As someone who sweated through a lot of math every day of my education, my expert opinion is no. At best, and given a good raw intellect, they can understand some of the important basic ideas but would be essentially worthless at practicing it. If someone can't practice an art or science, even in a neophyte manner, how much could they possibly understand the subject? Sounds like the definition of armchair expert to me.

Anyone with the intellect to understand (as oppose to merely recite) the important basic ideas of physics without the math underpinnings shouldn't have difficulty integrating the math into their understanding. There are only three reasons not to:

1) Not interested
2) Not willing to work that hard
3) Not able to comprehend no matter the effort

None of these are a free pass for talking out of your ass on the subject. The worst is the combination of 2&3, which is to a large extent what I'm railing about.

Just the last part: leaving the math part out which can be discussed between physicists at a boring conference.

...drips with disdain for and ignorance of the subject of physics. From the first day at high school level, it's all about the math.


It's nice to be formerly educated. But one doesn't need to be able to write an equation to know that when they stretch a rubber band, they will exert force to do so, and one can feel this force, the effort required to stretch it, the force it is exerting in it's need to retract.
One doesn't need to be able to write the equation of the force required to throw a baseball from third base to home plate, in order to execute the throw, have it delivered on target, in time to tag or force a runner out. I could go on and on. You can have your opinion, it doesn't make it fact.

Cheers
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Albert Einstein was an exceptional intellect. Most people aren't. If anyone here could display basic knowledge of physics sans egregious error, I wouldn't be emphasizing this point so much. Albert Einstein understood physics on a deep level. Anyone who understands physics at a modest level will be able to converse intelligently on the subject regardless of their education.


If I'm the one you (ad-hoc) judge to need a tracheotomy, pardon me if I don't share your confidence, at least up to this point. You might be one of the reasons tort laws are they way they are.


While I agree in principle with the intent of these remarks, it is a practical fact that the entire basis for the foundations of physics -not just ALL of the everyday work - is grounded in mathematics. The symmetry principles and group theoretic concepts of abstract algebra not only govern the core of modern physics, to a large degree they drive it. It IS possible to understand a lot of physics principles without ever dipping into equations, but it is not possible to DO physics without them.

To emphasize how deep the connection goes, I challenge you to define momentum (the quantity described in the law of conservation of momentum) or kinetic energy using only words. The propensity of matter in motion to stay in motion and energy of motion, respectively? Wow, those are nice, touchy feely words. What do they mean? How does one work with them? How does one use those words to precisely calculate the motion of a celestial body for all time, given only initial conditions?

Momentum is defined to be the product of mass times velocity, and THAT is the BEST way to understand it. Likewise kinetic energy is the product of mass times the square of velocity times a constant. That's what those concepts really are, and the form you must reckon with if you want to DO any physics using them.


It's actually quite insulting to someone who went through the effort to get a degree in physics to make such a sweeping generalization using such a mundane analogy. I could query you on whether you know whether water or a particular fire-suppression chemical is indicated for any given type of fire - would you know the answers without looking them up? Even if you did, acknowledge that most don't. Your analogy breaks down at that level of consideration, at least.

But "simple physics" is NOT as simple as putting out a fire, and to portray it as such reveals either an ignorance of the subject (common!) or a deliberate attempt at being disingenuous (rare). Other than being able to state the basic laws of physics in natural language, there is little that can be done in physics WITHOUT math. Mechanics, a cornerstone discipline within physics, STARTS with setting up and solving an equation of motion.

Can you do that? If not, what do you really know about physics?

Incidentally, the aspect of physics 9/11 is most concerned with is the mechanics of progressive collapse. A narrow specialty within a sub-discipline of one of the hardest and most uncommon mainstream degree programs there is. A subject which certainly was not covered in my undergraduate mechanics, though in terms of complexity it certainly could've been.

The point is, when you have someone CLEARLY talking out of their ass, and they've had not one minute of formal or informal instruction, is there a problem with pointing that out? People who take and pass classes in mechanics don't make these mistakes. People who've taken and passed high school physics don't make these mistakes. That's the important and true takeaway from this, NOT the fact that Einstein didn't do high school!

Did they teach humility in college?
Anyway, I have two bowling balls, both weigh 9 pounds. Bother suspended 20' above the ground.
Under one ball, there is nothing but air. Under the other, there are ten balsa wood planks stacked
one foot apart beginning at 11 feet off the ground, nine feet under ball two. I don't need a physics
education, to be able to write the mathematical formula, to argue that ball one when dropped at
the exact same time as ball two, is going to hit the ground first. You may argue I do. But in reality,
I don't. Thanks for playing.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Did they teach humility in college?
Anyway, I have two bowling balls, both weigh 9 pounds. Bother suspended 20' above the ground.
Under one ball, there is nothing but air. Under the other, there are ten balsa wood planks stacked
one foot apart beginning at 11 feet off the ground, nine feet under ball two. I don't need a physics
education, to be able to write the mathematical formula, to argue that ball one when dropped at
the exact same time as ball two, is going to hit the ground first. You may argue I do. But in reality,
I don't. Thanks for playing.

speaking of demonstrations, have you seen any of the work of Johnathan Cole?
fascinating stuff! ......
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

It's nice to be formerly educated.
I take it you mean 'formally'.

But one doesn't need to be able to write an equation to know that when they stretch a rubber band, they will exert force to do so, and one can feel this force, the effort required to stretch it, the force it is exerting in it's need to retract.
One doesn't need to be able to write the equation of the force required to throw a baseball from third base to home plate, in order to execute the throw, have it delivered on target, in time to tag or force a runner out. I could go on and on.
All true, but how relevant is it to this discussion? The average toddler can outperform all but the best of robots at ambulatory motion. The walking robots produced by DARPA/Boston Dynamics represent a combination of state of the art physics, engineering and computation. But they're still clumsy and quite limited. Understanding of some of the physics of the natural world is inherent in having a body.

Basically what you're trying to say is, the toddler is executing the same physics as the algorithms and mechanism of the robots and is able to do so without writing and solving an equation. So what? The toddler cannot design such a robot, neither can the toddler make predictions about the acceleration or collapse time of the towers. The toddler doesn't even know what 'acceleration' is, even though they instinctively deal with the actual phenomena all day long.

It helps to remember what we're talking about here. DOING physics involves doing math. Living in the real world doesn't. Intuitive physics isn't helping you to understand progressive collapse mechanics, that's apparent.

You can have your opinion, it doesn't make it fact.
Facts aren't opinion. It is a fact that to DO physics, you have to DO math, which is what I said.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

speaking of demonstrations, have you seen any of the work of Johnathan Cole?
fascinating stuff! ......

Not that I recall. But then again, I'm old. lol
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Not that I recall. But then again, I'm old. lol


Check this out: youtube.com/watch?v=O_pY0WLg9Cc

This guy is a Professional Engineer, and his stuff is spot on!
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Did they teach humility in college?
Now is not the time for me to be humble; now is the time for me to assert the skills that I worked very hard to obtain which you've tried to casually brush aside with some bull**** about Einstein.

Now is the time for YOU to be humble.

Anyway, I have two bowling balls, both weigh 9 pounds. Bother suspended 20' above the ground.
Under one ball, there is nothing but air. Under the other, there are ten balsa wood planks stacked
one foot apart beginning at 11 feet off the ground, nine feet under ball two. I don't need a physics
education, to be able to write the mathematical formula, to argue that ball one when dropped at
the exact same time as ball two, is going to hit the ground first.
Trivial. Most toddlers know this, too. Most toddlers can't pass high school physics.

Question (and I play dumb here): what does this have to do with anything?

Now, I answer the question: you think the collapses were too fast. Am I right? If so, on what do you judge that? On the bowling ball example above? Or the fact that you can throw a baseball?

How fast is too fast? How fast do you think they were? Might help to know that, for starters. Then, how does someone who knows how to throw a baseball translate that awesome innate talent into producing an estimated collapse time - to be able to evaluate the actual collapse time against expectation? You know, a meaningful and rational comparison, as opposed to something pulled from one's intuition (i.e. ASS)?

You may argue I do.
I wouldn't argue that you need equations to do what reflex and muscle memory do for you with hardly any conscious thought at all, or to know what a toddler knows from playing with their blocks, but I argued something different. I SAID: to do physics, you need to do math.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I take it you mean 'formally'.


All true, but how relevant is it to this discussion? The average toddler can outperform all but the best of robots at ambulatory motion. The walking robots produced by DARPA/Boston Dynamics represent a combination of state of the art physics, engineering and computation. But they're still clumsy and quite limited. Understanding of some of the physics of the natural world is inherent in having a body.

Basically what you're trying to say is, the toddler is executing the same physics as the algorithms and mechanism of the robots and is able to do so without writing and solving an equation. So what? The toddler cannot design such a robot, neither can the toddler make predictions about the acceleration or collapse time of the towers. The toddler doesn't even know what 'acceleration' is, even though they instinctively deal with the actual phenomena all day long.

It helps to remember what we're talking about here. DOING physics involves doing math. Living in the real world doesn't. Intuitive physics isn't helping you to understand progressive collapse mechanics, that's apparent.


Facts aren't opinion. It is a fact that to DO physics, you have to DO math, which is what I said.

Thank you for pointing out my spelling error.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

This exchange only serves to reinforce that what I've said is fact, not opinion. There's a person here who's gone around for years proclaiming potential energy is a delusion and had tried to defend this pseudoscientific crap right here in this thread. Instead of being appalled at such ignorance, Sphere takes issue with a minor point I've made about the putrid lay understanding of physics going on here by trotting out Einstein to a physics major. In so doing, Sphere has shown an equally appalling and putrid understanding of physics.

Sorry if you're coming in after years of being lectured on "physics" by complete and utter dopes. My patience for self-aggrandized unscientific nonsense from the peanut gallery has long grown thin. NO, you do NOT understand physics or you'd be all over psikeyhackr instead of me. Your baseball skills aren't helping you. 9/11 did not make you an expert in physics - or even competent to make certain determinations like "collapse too fast" - despite your inflated perception of yourself.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Sorry if you're coming in after years of being lectured on "physics" by complete and utter dopes. My patience for self-aggrandized unscientific nonsense from the peanut gallery has long grown thin. NO, you do NOT understand physics or you'd be all over psikeyhackr instead of me. Your baseball skills aren't helping you. 9/11 did not make you an expert in physics - or even competent to make certain determinations like "collapse too fast" - despite your inflated perception of yourself.

Dig this, a "muscle car" that can accelerate 0 > 60 in three seconds is much more powerful than an economy car, that can not accelerate that fast.
The acceleration possible is a function of POWER. So, if the towers had taken say a minute to "collapse" and producing chunks of rubble rather than mass quantities of pulverized material, this would indicate that less energy had been applied to the structure in the process of destroying it. My take on this is that because of the pulverization of tons of material, + the speed of "collapse" the event could not possibly have been gravity & gravity alone. not to mention that chaotic damage does not = coherent collapse.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

No there is connections to everything you are speculating on the meaning of those connections. If you look hard enough you will find the connections but that doesn't imply meaning.
AS to there being FAR more evidence pointing to your complicated theory than to the truth no there isn't what you have is more snippets of information that don't prove anything. The motives of the 19 hijackers have been known for a long time and arte undisputed. The motives you give are based on speculations.

I agree I am sick of truthers misusing the word proof you have none nada zilch. what you have is some connections that anyone could find linking almost anything together none of it comes close to proof. You fail miserable to understand Occams razor if you think anything you said has supported it.

Nonsense! The closer the disinterested person looks at ANY aspect of the official story, the more it becomes clear that the story is impossible. The closer the scrutiny, the more the story falls apart.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Nonsense! The closer the disinterested person looks at ANY aspect of the official story, the more it becomes clear that the story is impossible. The closer the scrutiny, the more the story falls apart.

Nonsense the closer or even a casual look at your insane BS will let anyone with half a brain know you are full, of crap[ and have no clue what you are talking about.

Figured out what ground effect is or how dihedral works yet mr., never been in an aircraft of any kind, fake pilot?
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Nonsense the closer or even a casual look at your insane BS will let anyone with half a brain know you are full, of crap[ and have no clue what you are talking about.

Figured out what ground effect is or how dihedral works yet mr., never been in an aircraft of any kind, fake pilot?

The crux of the argument is: should it be possible for the mass that was the upper 15% of the north tower,
to accelerate downward through the mass of the as yet undamaged structure below the 93rd floor, and while doing so, cause the complete & total destruction of the entire skyscraper?
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The crux of the argument is: should it be possible for the mass that was the upper 15% of the north tower,
to accelerate downward through the mass of the as yet undamaged structure below the 93rd floor, and while doing so, cause the complete & total destruction of the entire skyscraper?

The obvious answer is yes because it happened.

The answer doesn't change the fact that HD is a liar and spreads nothing but pure 100% undiluted BS
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Check this out: youtube.com/watch?v=O_pY0WLg9Cc

This guy is a Professional Engineer, and his stuff is spot on!

Check this out:



Proof that aliens brought down the world trade center!
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Check this out:



Proof that aliens brought down the world trade center!

-----------------

Thank you for your tireless quest for the TRUTH, my friend.
I found the image of the alien---or maybe it's just Dick Cheney--- over GW's right shoulder particularly compelling.
The evil-doer is obviously pointing a death-ray at the Prez.
And to think, they had previously tried to blame it on American icon, Hulk Hogan............BASTARDS!!!

-----------------
http://www.flyingface.com/the-gothe...hogan-new-york-world-trade-center-destroy.jpg
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

-----------------

Thank you for your tireless quest for the TRUTH, my friend.
I found the image of the alien---or maybe it's just Dick Cheney--- over GW's right shoulder particularly compelling.
The evil-doer is obviously pointing a death-ray at the Prez.
And to think, they had previously tried to blame it on American icon, Hulk Hogan............BASTARDS!!!

-----------------

and the emperor is still NAKED

Bust the emperor for indecent exposure!
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The obvious answer is yes because it happened.

The answer doesn't change the fact that HD is a liar and spreads nothing but pure 100% undiluted BS

"because it happened" HOWEVER, was that HAPPENED with the help of explosives, or?
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

No skitzo he made the statement then explained it but you are too caught up in your fantasy world to know the difference.

You are the one who said his original interview was taken out of context, and that truthers had cut parts of it out
This leads me to believe you must have all of his uncut original statements in their entirety. Please post them.

The reason this is necessary to prove what you're saying is a valid one. Consider the following:

There are 2 possible scenarios, one where he is a liar and one where he is not.

He said there were no bodies. To come out later and say otherwise is a 180 degree turnaround, in other words, the complete opposite of what he said before, which is not possible to do without some supporting statement from the original statement being left out, resulting in the original statement being, as you say, "taken out of context". That means the only way to prove it is to find that supporting statement in his original interview. It would have to be something like "there were no bodies, but we did find body parts, etc.
Without that, it's ludicrous to act like we're supposed to just accept his totally opposite new statement just because he said so, especially with the likelihood he was threatened. So, please post the missing part of the original interview, which you must have. If you don't have it, then how could you have ever known his statement was taken out of context? Unless you just said that and were lying....
 
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