Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I haven't seen any pictures that seemed strange to me. it doesn't take much to blister paint or melt tires.

Your level of presumptive incorrect deduction is noted.

Yes, I know there are several statements from witnesses. Some prompted, most laymen. It's not that I am unaware, it's that i give them zero credibility.

You are really out of your element. I know air samples were taken. You are obviously uneducated to the scientific angle I was referring to.

Why?

If I wasn't worried about crossing lines, I would really have some choice words about your idiotic assumptions.

How about manning up, and asking me directly, what I mean, instead of the incorrect assumptions you have? You might learn something.

You have to give me something to work with. Also, I assume that what you, or any other poster, means is what choice of words you use. I assume you mean what you say. I understand we can all misuse words and terms and generate a vague post, but for the most part I assume a poster means what he posts.

But from your prior posts here, what you seemed to suggest was that you did not know that there was molten metal at WTC. You did not know about the peculiar condition of many vehicles on the street.

Now, with your latest post, it seems you did know about those vehicles, but just did not consider their condition to be unusual. Nor did you consider really high temperatures to be unusual, from a jetfuel & gravity event.

So if you make some specific statements as to what you think happened here, I would enjoy discussing it. eace

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The gypsum and concrete dust would have certainly smothered the flames from the fires on a few floors during the collapse by displacing the oxygen needed, and there would have been far more than enough material interfacing with the material from the fire floors during the collapse to absorb the heat enough to take it below the ignition temperature of materials used in cars.

Take a look at the slide show I posted. It could not have been just from burning debris before the collapse. The burning car perimeter is bigger than that and would have had to have something to do with hot particles in the dust.

I do believe some form of thermite is responsible for the fires in the cars and the heat and molten metal in the rubble. The rubble was extremely well insulated with concrete and gypsum dust and that would cause it to last for days. The USGS infrared shows it being above 1,300 degrees F at the surface on Sept. 16, 2001 and by Sept. 23, 2001 it was relatively cool. So it didn't last forever.

It really is clear from multiple vantage points that there were extreme temperatures present at the WTC and that these temperatures could not be attributed to fire or other natural causes.

Putting out the flames does not mean the fires would be extinguished permanently, The heat is still there. In fact the heated dust cloud could have been responsible for the damage to the cars.
As to thermite it does not require oxygen and thus it cannot be smothered out to stop or slow it down. Thus it could not have been responsible for the extended periods of high temperatures only slower burning combustibles can explain this. IE materials present in the towers.
The rivers of molten steel bit cannot be explained by thermite.
I know you cling to this thermite being needed as it is required for your CT but it simply doesn't explain the high temperature zones found long after the collapse.
These please explain what natural causes could not explain the temperatures. I agree there had to be some energy source (ie combustible) to have caused them but thermite would not last long enough to do this.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

You have to give me something to work with. Also, I assume that what you, or any other poster, means is what choice of words you use. I assume you mean what you say. I understand we can all misuse words and terms and generate a vague post, but for the most part I assume a poster means what he posts.

But from your prior posts here, what you seemed to suggest was that you did not know that there was molten metal at WTC. You did not know about the peculiar condition of many vehicles on the street.

Now, with your latest post, it seems you did know about those vehicles, but just did not consider their condition to be unusual. Nor did you consider really high temperatures to be unusual, from a jetfuel & gravity event.

So if you make some specific statements as to what you think happened here, I would enjoy discussing it. eace

Once again HD there was no molten steel or iron at the WTC period.
The cars were not melted the tires were, FYI tires are made of rubber not metal.
BTW are you ever gonna admit that you have no idea what ground effect is?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Putting out the flames does not mean the fires would be extinguished permanently, The heat is still there. In fact the heated dust cloud could have been responsible for the damage to the cars.
As to thermite it does not require oxygen and thus it cannot be smothered out to stop or slow it down. Thus it could not have been responsible for the extended periods of high temperatures only slower burning combustibles can explain this. IE materials present in the towers.
The rivers of molten steel bit cannot be explained by thermite.
I know you cling to this thermite being needed as it is required for your CT but it simply doesn't explain the high temperature zones found long after the collapse.
These please explain what natural causes could not explain the temperatures. I agree there had to be some energy source (ie combustible) to have caused them but thermite would not last long enough to do this.

The heat would have been transferred from the fires to well below ignition temperatures during the collapse. That can be shown analytically if necessary.

Once in the six sub-levels the molten metal from thermite would have ignited other things in the pile and the whole thing would have been fairly well insulated thermally. This could be shown to last five days or so, which is about the amount of time extreme heat was present.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The heat would have been transferred from the fires to well below ignition temperatures during the collapse. That can be shown analytically if necessary.

Once in the six sub-levels the molten metal from thermite would have ignited other things in the pile and the whole thing would have been fairly well insulated thermally. This could be shown to last five days or so, which is about the amount of time extreme heat was present.

Ignition of what exactly? Different things have different ignition temperatures and some stuff would retain most of their heat regardless of the dust cloud.
What molten metal? you haven't even come close to providing any evidence for it. Thermite is not the only thing that can burn. Sorry I don't buy the it could only have been thermite argument.
Yes insulated material would retain heat longer but not enough to keep metal molten (my whole point in this as claims of rivers of molten metal days later make no sense without some sort of energy being added to it, HD claims molten metal 6 weeks later but then he claims there were no planes and nukes brought down the towers so he's kinda run far past you and entered the crazy zone).

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Ignition of what exactly? Different things have different ignition temperatures and some stuff would retain most of their heat regardless of the dust cloud.
What molten metal? you haven't even come close to providing any evidence for it. Thermite is not the only thing that can burn. Sorry I don't buy the it could only have been thermite argument.
Yes insulated material would retain heat longer but not enough to keep metal molten (my whole point in this as claims of rivers of molten metal days later make no sense without some sort of energy being added to it, HD claims molten metal 6 weeks later but then he claims there were no planes and nukes brought down the towers so he's kinda run far past you and entered the crazy zone).

The things that burned on the cars were plastic and rubber. The dust cloud would have extinguished the fires during the collapse and it is highly unlikely any of the material which had been heated by those fires would have stayed very hot after being in intimate contact with unheated material during the collapse. It is extremely improbable that the plastic and rubber on the cars was ignited from debris from the few fire affected floors of the towers. In addition, in most cases there isn't even a lot of debris around the cars, just dust. The dust had to have very hot particles in it near the buildings.

I think the molten metal observations were made in the days immediately following the collapses, while looking for survivors in the rubble. Concrete and gypsum are very poor thermal conductors and the amount of compaction of dust and debris could have insulated it enough to keep it very hot for something like a week. The USGS infrared mapping shows extreme surface temperatures on the rubble of the three collapsed buildings five days afterward and relatively cool surface temperatures 12 days after, so it is highly unlikely for this and other reasons that there was molten metal six weeks after the collapses. There was certainly molten metal observed by everyone out of the damaged northeast corner of WTC 2 even before it collapsed. It was orange/yellow, so it was not aluminum.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

All of the iron microspheres are predominantly iron. There aren't a lot of differences between them from what I understand.

How can you say published papers mean little to me and then submit something from a bull****ter like Dave Thomas? He trys to say David Chandler's measurements are consistent with a gravity collapse and are an average of freefall and short 2 msec floor impacts. That is a load of garbage. His impulses can't produce 10% of the energy needed to continue collapse and the building couldn't be in freefall between floors as columns have a significant minimum resistance while buckling.

Steven Jones did have independent people look at the dust. Niels Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, and Mark Basile. They came to the same conclusions he did.

I think it is very interesting that the red/gray chips produce iron microspheres when ignited. James Millette did not ignite any of the red/gray chips he studied.

As far as corrosive effects people don't corrode the same way metals do and as far as toxicity is concerned, people got washed shortly after being covered with the dust. As far as heating is concerned, we do know many people said it was hot. There also was not a lot of people directly below the buildings when they collapsed that did not die. The cars that were ignited were in close proximity from what I understand and were probably covered in material containing molten iron particles that were much hotter than material that surged further away.

well Tony. Lay out your evidence then.

Are you saying no people were covered by this "molten iron particles that were much hotter..."
Seems we would have seen or heard of people with burns.

What we get is opinion and bs from you Tony. Then you attack a persons source. Guess I am limited. to using Jones, Griffen, Harriet then:mrgreen:

and the independent paper was published, oh wait an open source pay to publish journal. yea. And others who have also examined the chips came up with a different view. Amazing I find Jones / Harriet paper mainly on truther sites and the open source publication. Guess its another conspiracy that no main stream scientific publication picked up the paper. I am goint to use the same tactic CT'ers use. That is of course they came up with the same answer. They are in bed with Jones. (that is the type of response I get when I list a source, except the lab or person is in bed with the govt.).


Lay out your explanation, get the engineers/scientists to review and accept your explantion. Till then, what we have is bs. The bs according to you that I read is just as good as the bs you read/post.:mrgreen:

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The things that burned on the cars were plastic and rubber. The dust cloud would have extinguished the fires during the collapse and it is highly unlikely any of the material which had been heated by those fires would have stayed very hot after being in intimate contact with unheated material during the collapse. It is extremely improbable that the plastic and rubber on the cars was ignited from debris from the few fire affected floors of the towers. In addition, in most cases there isn't even a lot of debris around the cars, just dust. The dust had to have very hot particles in it near the buildings.

I think the molten metal observations were made in the days immediately following the collapses, while looking for survivors in the rubble. Concrete and gypsum are very poor thermal conductors and the amount of compaction of dust and debris could have insulated it enough to keep it very hot for something like a week. The USGS infrared mapping shows extreme surface temperatures on the rubble of the three collapsed buildings five days afterward and relatively cool surface temperatures 12 days after, so it is highly unlikely for this and other reasons that there was molten metal six weeks after the collapses. There was certainly molten metal observed by everyone out of the damaged northeast corner of WTC 2 even before it collapsed. It was orange/yellow, so it was not aluminum.

no the dust cloud would not necessarily have cooled everything down. and I don't see any evidence of molten metal just a few eyewitness accts that are more neasily explained by exaggeration/error than any thing else. Especially as no molten then solidified metal was found.
As to the cars I know it was plastic/rubber that burned/melted HD seems to be the one who cant fathom that these things aren't metal. Thermite is not needed to explain them nor does it explain molten metal several days later. (especially as there was none)

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

no the dust cloud would not necessarily have cooled everything down. and I don't see any evidence of molten metal just a few eyewitness accts that are more neasily explained by exaggeration/error than any thing else. Especially as no molten then solidified metal was found.
As to the cars I know it was plastic/rubber that burned/melted HD seems to be the one who cant fathom that these things aren't metal. Thermite is not needed to explain them nor does it explain molten metal several days later. (especially as there was none)

I did not say just the dust cloud for cooling the fire heated material. During the collapse there was a lot of solid interface between the material from the few heated floors and the other 97% of the building. I am sure the temperatures of the initially heated material would have been cooled to far below the ignition temperature of any plastic or rubber. There had to be hot particles in the dust.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

well Tony. Lay out your evidence then.

Are you saying no people were covered by this "molten iron particles that were much hotter..."
Seems we would have seen or heard of people with burns.

What we get is opinion and bs from you Tony. Then you attack a persons source. Guess I am limited. to using Jones, Griffen, Harriet then:mrgreen:

and the independent paper was published, oh wait an open source pay to publish journal. yea. And others who have also examined the chips came up with a different view. Amazing I find Jones / Harriet paper mainly on truther sites and the open source publication. Guess its another conspiracy that no main stream scientific publication picked up the paper. I am goint to use the same tactic CT'ers use. That is of course they came up with the same answer. They are in bed with Jones. (that is the type of response I get when I list a source, except the lab or person is in bed with the govt.).


Lay out your explanation, get the engineers/scientists to review and accept your explantion. Till then, what we have is bs. The bs according to you that I read is just as good as the bs you read/post.:mrgreen:

There weren't any people outside that were as close as the ignited cars to the buildings when they came down that weren't killed, and there were people who died that had burns on them.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

There weren't any people outside that were as close as the ignited cars to the buildings when they came down that weren't killed, and there were people who died that had burns on them.

and your source?

and you see no other explanation other than your toxic special dust?

There were fires, gases explelled from collapsing buildings are hot.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

and your source?

and you see no other explanation other than your toxic special dust?

There were fires, gases explelled from collapsing buildings are hot.

The gases expelled from collapsing buildings would not be very hot as we have already been through the exercise to show how little the kinetic energy transfer would heat things up.

A lot of people talk about the dust being hot over a block away from the buildings, so something heated it up and it wasn't the few floor fires from the aircraft impacts or the kinetic energy from the collapse.

There are people who talk about experiencing secondary explosions while getting out of the buildings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W1HlV9O65w
and firefighters saying this happened also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1zED8dy63w.

So there was a lot more going on than the plane impacts and fires on the upper floors.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Once in the six sub-levels the molten metal from thermite would have ignited other things in the pile and the whole thing would have been fairly well insulated thermally. This could be shown to last five days or so, which is about the amount of time extreme heat was present.

That's an interesting hypothesis, but seems to me the oxygen would all be used up before something else could be ignited. however, any heat in the core of the collapsed area would be pretty well insulated, and it would retain heat for a very long time.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Tony are you saying this toxic dust that ignited fires only can be found within the area the vehicles burned?

I did a quick search of images and there are plenty of images showing people covered in dust, vehicles not burned up but covered with dust
You would have to come up with more convincing evidence than that.

Yes, the dust was bad to breath. Think of the amount of concrete dust, particles from the fire burning pc's, furniture, etc. Some first responsers and others who were at the scene have developed health problems.

The difference between you and I. You look at something and see a conspiracy. I look at it and can see a non CT explanation.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The dust had to have very hot particles in it near the buildings.

Dust does not retain heat long at all, The surface area to mass is pretty large, which cools the dust through IR emissions rather rapidly. Something to consider. If we have iron spheres that are 10 microns in diameter, their surface area ratio in cm to mass in grams would be 762:1. At 100 microns of diameter this ratio changes to 76.2:1. This means the smaller the particles, the better the cooling. Some of these were suppose to be as large as 2 mm, right? The ratio for 2mm diameter is 3.8:1. Note for every tenfold in size, we have a tenfold difference in ratio. this is because diameter to mass is a cubed function, and surface area is a square function.

If micrograms of dust are going to retain heat for the time it think it does to damage a cars paint or tires, just imagine how long it takes the heat to dissipate from something really massive, like the collapsed towers..

I think the molten metal observations were made in the days immediately following the collapses, while looking for survivors in the rubble.

By people who have probably never seen molten metal before.

It was orange/yellow, so it was not aluminum.

Oh great! You saw it! Glad to know you know it was a specific color, because cameras often do not reproduce IR generated colors correctly.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Tony are you saying this toxic dust that ignited fires only can be found within the area the vehicles burned?

I did a quick search of images and there are plenty of images showing people covered in dust, vehicles not burned up but covered with dust
You would have to come up with more convincing evidence than that.

Yes, the dust was bad to breath. Think of the amount of concrete dust, particles from the fire burning pc's, furniture, etc. Some first responsers and others who were at the scene have developed health problems.

The difference between you and I. You look at something and see a conspiracy. I look at it and can see a non CT explanation.

This morning I posted a link of slides showing the burned out cars in the vicinity. I guess you didn't look at them, so here they are again http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DoYouEverWonder/slideshow/WTC - Burning Cars/?albumview=slideshow

Why don't you tell us what you think caused rubber and plastic to ignite and burn on the cars sometimes leading to the entire vehicle going up in flames?

I see conspiracy here because the government investigation does not explain what was observed and they are clearly covering up what actually occurred. The buildings had a lot more happening in them than aircraft impacts and fires on a few upper floors to cause them to completely collapse. The videos I linked to with people testifying to secondary explosions shows that. The extreme heat in the rubble shows that. The lack of deceleration of WTC 1 shows that, and the freefall acceleration of WTC 7 shows that.

It is your choice whether you want to wander around in a fairy land pretending it was just aircraft impacts and fires on a few upper floors, or have the nerve to determine what really had to have happened to cause what was observed.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

This morning I posted a link of slides showing the burned out cars in the vicinity. I guess you didn't look at them, so here they are again WTC - Burning Cars Slideshow by DoYouEverWonder | Photobucket


Why don't you tell us what you think cause rubber and plastic to ignite and burn on the cars?

I looked at those already and I'll bet Mike did too. I didn't see anything unusual. Could have been several things. The possible answers are more than just what you believe without question, but I can guarantee you. It wasn't hot dust.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Dust does not retain heat long at all, The surface area to mass is pretty large, which cools the dust through IR emissions rather rapidly. Something to consider. If we have iron spheres that are 10 microns in diameter, their surface area ratio in cm to mass in grams would be 762:1. At 100 microns of diameter this ratio changes to 76.2:1. This means the smaller the particles, the better the cooling. Some of these were suppose to be as large as 2 mm, right? The ratio for 2mm diameter is 3.8:1. Note for every tenfold in size, we have a tenfold difference in ratio. this is because diameter to mass is a cubed function, and surface area is a square function.

If micrograms of dust are going to retain heat for the time it think it does to damage a cars paint or tires, just imagine how long it takes the heat to dissipate from something really massive, like the collapsed towers..

By people who have probably never seen molten metal before.

Oh great! You saw it! Glad to know you know it was a specific color, because cameras often do not reproduce IR generated colors correctly.

A lot of cameras captured the molten metal coming out of the damaged northeast corner of WTC 2 a few minutes before it collapsed. They all show it as orange/yellow. To presume they all didn't reproduce the IR is a huge stretch.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I looked at those already and I'll bet Mike did too. I didn't see anything unusual. Could have been several things. The possible answers are more than just what you believe without question, but I can guarantee you. It wasn't hot dust.

I said I think it was hot particles in the dust cloud, such as globs of molten iron, that descended on the vehicles and ignited their plastic and rubber, not simply hot dust.

So what do you think caused the vehicles to ignite?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

A lot of cameras captured the molten metal coming out of the damaged northeast corner of WTC 2 a few minutes before it collapsed. They all show it as orange/yellow. To presume they all didn't reproduce the IR is a huge stretch.

I saw plenty of fiery material coming out of the towers. How do you know it was molten metal?

Cameras...

What did I just say about cameras not capturing the color of heat correctly?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I said I think it was hot particles in the dust cloud, such as globs of molten iron, that descended on the vehicles and ignited their plastic and rubber, not simply hot dust.

So what do you think caused the vehicles to ignite?

I don't know what caused it. However, it could have been several things. Could have been debris on fire, possible soaked in jet fuel. Could have been some debris busted open vehicle fuel tanks, and all it takes is one fiery piece of debris to set a whole area of cars on fire.

I, however, am speculating knowing full well that there could be more causes, and even several more I don't think of.

The audacity, to think it was something of a conspiracy nature only, is... well, lets just say it makes any sane person question another mental state.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I don't know what caused it. However, it could have been several things. Could have been debris on fire, possible soaked in jet fuel. Could have been some debris busted open vehicle fuel tanks, and all it takes is one fiery piece of debris to set a whole area of cars on fire.

I, however, am speculating knowing full well that there could be more causes, and even several more I don't think of.

The audacity, to think it was something of a conspiracy nature only, is... well, lets just say it makes any sane person question another mental state.

The jet fuel burned up in minutes. All it really did was ignite fires on a few upper floors.

The fires on the few upper floors would have been extinguished during the collapse and the heat from those few fire floors would have been cooled way down by being absorbed by all of the cooler material it would have come up against during the collapse.

It is clear that something hot was being generated in those buildings during the collapses, that it was not due to the fires on a few upper floors or the kinetic energy developed during the collapse, and that people like you and Mike have not thought this through.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The jet fuel burned up in minutes. All it really did was ignite fires on a few upper floors.

The fires on the few upper floors would have been extinguished during the collapse and the heat from those few fire floors would have been cooled way down by being absorbed by all of the cooler material it would have come up against during the collapse.

It is clear that something hot was coming out of those buildings during the collapses, that it was not due to the fires on a few upper floors or the kinetic energy developed during the collapse, and that people like you and Mike have not thought this through.

I see.

You know this... how?

The jet fuel is not going to burn faster than the available oxygen movement. There are countless variables, and I'll, bet that a few of those variables allowed for some rather interesting actions. Also, don't forget the countless power transformers in the building. Oil filled was the stardar design back then. I'll bet almost all of WTC 1 and WTC 2 were oil filled. Of the 24 I know of in WTC 7, 22 of them were oil filled.

How much more power did WTC 1 and 2 use? How many oil filled transformers may have exploded, with a slower burning oil in them?

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

This morning I posted a link of slides showing the burned out cars in the vicinity. I guess you didn't look at them, so here they are again WTC - Burning Cars Slideshow by DoYouEverWonder | Photobucket

Why don't you tell us what you think caused rubber and plastic to ignite and burn on the cars sometimes leading to the entire vehicle going up in flames?

I see conspiracy here because the government investigation does not explain what was observed and they are clearly covering up what actually occurred. The buildings had a lot more happening in them than aircraft impacts and fires on a few upper floors to cause them to completely collapse. The videos I linked to with people testifying to secondary explosions shows that. The extreme heat in the rubble shows that. The lack of deceleration of WTC 1 shows that, and the freefall acceleration of WTC 7 shows that.

It is your choice whether you want to wander around in a fairy land pretending it was just aircraft impacts and fires on a few upper floors, or have the nerve to determine what really had to have happened to cause what was observed.

why don't you explain what happened.

on second thought. It is not worth the time to continue. You expect people to be respectfull and have an honest debate. Yet, becuase I don't agree with you , the claim is I live in a fairy land.
With that Tony, it clear you have no intention of debating in good faith.

I await to see you recieving the engineering of the year award for solving 911, now that would be living in a fairy land.:mrgreen:

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The videos I linked to with people testifying to secondary explosions shows that. The extreme heat in the rubble shows that.

Secondary explosions...

You mean like power transformers exploding?