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Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

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Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The lack of deceleration of WTC 1 shows that, and the freefall acceleration of WTC 7 shows that.
Why should it decelerate to any notable effect?

Ever see a house of cards fall?
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I did not say just the dust cloud for cooling the fire heated material. During the collapse there was a lot of solid interface between the material from the few heated floors and the other 97% of the building. I am sure the temperatures of the initially heated material would have been cooled to far below the ignition temperature of any plastic or rubber. There had to be hot particles in the dust.

You are sure, I am not.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

A lot of cameras captured the molten metal coming out of the damaged northeast corner of WTC 2 a few minutes before it collapsed. They all show it as orange/yellow. To presume they all didn't reproduce the IR is a huge stretch.

Not this again. Ive seen the videos and none of them prove molten metal only burning material coming out of the buildings.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Secondary explosions...

You mean like power transformers exploding?

Did you watch the videos I linked to with people testifying to secondary explosions while they were in the building?

You are groping at straws. An enormous steel framed building completely collapses. A process which usually requires charges to make happen, and you want to dismiss testimony to explosions as being from power transformers. Sure. There is no chance it was power tranformers exploding that brought the lobby ceiling down like that firefighter said. Get real.
 
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Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Why should it decelerate to any notable effect?

Ever see a house of cards fall?

This is about the most unscientific comment I have seen here. Do you have any idea how the towers were constructed?

The factor of safety was 3.00 to 1 in the core and 5.00 to 1 for the perimeter against gravity collapse. The buildings were hardly a house of cards. To get enough load to break a structure below capable of supporting several times the load above it that load above needs to fall a significant distance and then decelerate heavily to amplify the load. If the collapse were natural there would have been a staccato type velocity curve. Instead it is straight, showing constant acceleration. That is impossible in a natural collapse.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The material coming out of WTC 2's northeast corner was a liquid at a very high temperature. It had to be molten metal.

Why did it have to be? Aside from needing it to fit your CT (which again it doesn't) there is no reason for it needing to be molten metal.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Why did it have to be? Aside from needing it to fit your CT (which again it doesn't) there is no reason for it needing to be molten metal.

I don't need it to fit so I can have a conspiracy theory.

The reality is that it has to be liquid molten metal by definition, since the color shows it is very hot, it is flowing, and it is heavier than air.

Only a liquid will flow as it is observed to do, and only a metal can be that hot, still be liquid, and be heavier than air.

There was obviously molten metal generated during the WTC collapses and you are groping at straws in your attempts to deny it.
 
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Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I don't need it to fit so I can have a conspiracy theory.

The reality is that it has to be liquid molten metal by definition, since the color shows it is very hot, it is flowing, and it is heavier than air.

Only a liquid will flow as it is observed to do, and only a metal can be that hot, still be liquid, and be heavier than air.

There was obviously molten metal generated during the WTC collapses and you are groping at straws in your attempts to deny it.

1. Then why do you cling to it being molten metal
2. That does not mean it has to be molten metal, also it is not clearly liquid.
3. BS flaming debris (cloth from furniture ex.) will look pretty much the same. BTW plastic can be liquid and flaming at same time.
4. Where is your proof of this molten metal? If you find some actual proof I will agree there was molten metal. That still wont prove thermite however.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

1. Then why do you cling to it being molten metal

Because it is molten metal. No need to cling to anything, reality is reality.

2. That does not mean it has to be molten metal, also it is not clearly liquid.

It is very obviously liquid pouring out of that damaged northeast corner of WTC 2.

3. BS flaming debris (cloth from furniture ex.) will look pretty much the same. BTW plastic can be liquid and flaming at same time.

Plastic won't flouresce orange/yellow. It was molten iron.

4. Where is your proof of this molten metal? If you find some actual proof I will agree there was molten metal. That still wont prove thermite however.

You are in denial of the obvious.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Because it is molten metal. No need to cling to anything, reality is reality.

So say you I am more skeptical

It is very obviously liquid pouring out of that damaged northeast corner of WTC 2.

Why do you say so. My very fist impression on seeing the video was that it was burning drapes falling. One non expert opinion vs. another.

Plastic won't flouresce orange/yellow. It was molten iron.

If it is burning it will be yellow. You assume it is not burning material I make no such assumption


You are in denial of the obvious.

No I am being skeptical of your analysis. You have given no proof just your opinion.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

and your source?

and you see no other explanation other than your toxic special dust?

There were fires, gases explelled from collapsing buildings are hot.

How many collapsing buildings have been measured? Where did that happen? What temperatures are those gasses you refer to?
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

How many collapsing buildings have been measured? Where did that happen? What temperatures are those gasses you refer to?

There are lots of legal controlled demolitions where standard high explosives like C-4 are used with no incendiaries involved. No fires in the rubble, and the dust is not hot.

To go one step further we can look at Verinage demolitions, where no charges of any kind are used, just hydraulic rams to break the columns on a couple of stories. No fires in the rubble, and the dust is not hot.

Of course, Mike and the others denying controlled demolition of the WTC buildings would try to point to the fires on the few upper floors as the reason for all of the heat, but that can be shown to be incorrect as the dust would have smothered the fires and all of the interface with cooler material during the collapse would have absorbed the heat from the relatively small amount of hot material. They are just blowing smoke here, literally. They have no answer for the hot dust, molten metal, and ignited cars that would not involve incendiary use and a conspiracy, other than what we were told, being behind the destruction of the buildings.

They really have a hard time with the lack of deceleration in WTC 1, and the free fall acceleration of WTC 7 proving controlled demolition and don't seem to want to discuss those things too much.
 
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Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

How many collapsing buildings have been measured? Where did that happen? What temperatures are those gasses you refer to?

HD, ask away. I am not going to give you a direct answer. Using your style of debate it is up to you to show that what I stated is not true.

So based on your question, are you saying gases created and expelled by a fire are cool?

Please explain how the cars were ignited?
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Plastic won't flouresce orange/yellow. It was molten iron.
Again, cameras do not capture the color of heat properly. They can, they just rarely do.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

This is about the most unscientific comment I have seen here. Do you have any idea how the towers were constructed?

The factor of safety was 3.00 to 1 in the core and 5.00 to 1 for the perimeter against gravity collapse. The buildings were hardly a house of cards. To get enough load to break a structure below capable of supporting several times the load above it that load above needs to fall a significant distance and then decelerate heavily to amplify the load. If the collapse were natural there would have been a staccato type velocity curve. Instead it is straight, showing constant acceleration. That is impossible in a natural collapse.
3:1 or 5:1? who cares?

When the top 20% of the mass is falling onto the floor, that's far greater than 10:1.

Familiarize yourself with how the floors were suspended on towers 1 and 2, and think again about your theory.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

There are lots of legal controlled demolitions where standard high explosives like C-4 are used with no incendiaries involved. No fires in the rubble, and the dust is not hot.

To go one step further we can look at Verinage demolitions, where no charges of any kind are used, just hydraulic rams to break the columns on a couple of stories. No fires in the rubble, and the dust is not hot.

Of course, Mike and the others denying controlled demolition of the WTC buildings would try to point to the fires on the few upper floors as the reason for all of the heat, but that can be shown to be incorrect as the dust would have smothered the fires and all of the interface with cooler material during the collapse would have absorbed the heat from the relatively small amount of hot material. They are just blowing smoke here, literally. They have no answer for the hot dust, molten metal, and ignited cars that would not involve incendiary use and a conspiracy, other than what we were told, being behind the destruction of the buildings.

They really have a hard time with the lack of deceleration in WTC 1, and the free fall acceleration of WTC 7 proving controlled demolition and don't seem to want to discuss those things too much.

It's what one sees when dealing with somebody in denial about reality, in this case, historical and documented events, documented in some way. A certain percentage is just that way, an nothing can be done about it. My brother is that way.

Thanks very much for that explanation about Verinage methods.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Henry, et. al...

Look at how this building was brought down:

 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Henry, et. al...

Look at how this building was brought down:



I have seen that video many times.

Depending on the size and construction of the building the Verinage technique can be done with cables. Essentially it is a demolition which uses mechanical methods to break the vertical supports on one or two stories and then the kinetic energy transfer after the drop to break up the lower and upper sections into manageable pieces which can be trucked away.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

3:1 or 5:1? who cares?

When the top 20% of the mass is falling onto the floor, that's far greater than 10:1.

Familiarize yourself with how the floors were suspended on towers 1 and 2, and think again about your theory.

No, it does matter because the columns cannot miss each other due to inertia. A 207 foot square 12 story upper building section could not and did not shift a couple feet in two lateral directions to miss the columns below with everything from above just falling on a floor as you are trying to say.

I know precisely how the towers were constructed with a core and perimeter, what the size of the columns and the floor trusses were, their spacing etc. I have been looking into this for several years.

The horizontal propagation across the 98th floor of WTC 1 occurs in 0.5 seconds. There was no aircraft damage to the 98th floor. It was just above the damaged areas. The upper section tilts no more than one degree in the first two stories of the fall. There is no deceleration during that time or any time after. That is a problem. The initial story collapses at a rate of 5 m/^2, which is far too fast for natural buckling. The stories which collapsed after the 98th were the 99th through the 101st, not those of the damaged lower areas. There is only one explanation for all of this......controlled demolition. The 98th floor was chosen for initiation as it would have been the closest to the damaged areas without having any of its charges displaced. The 99th through 101st stories were then blown to provide enough momentum to get through the damaged areas in case some of the charges there did not work.

The aircraft impact and fires were causal ruses to blame outsiders. They couldn't bring the buildings down and the above points show they didn't.
 
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Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

No, it does matter because the columns cannot miss each other due to inertia. A 207 foot square building cannot just shift a couple feet to miss the columns below with everything from above just falling on a floor as you want it to.

I know precisely how the towers were constructed, what the size of the columns were, and the floor trusses, the spacing etc. I have been looking into this for several years.
Then you should realize that the floors can more easily crash down than in a standard design.The floors were hung on the outer and inner columns. The attaching points break, the columns need not go anywhere. Once they lose their horizontal support of the floors, they are relatively flimsy.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Then you should realize that the floors can more easily crash down than in a standard design.The floors were hung on the outer and inner columns. The attaching points break, the columns need not go anywhere. Once they lose their horizontal support of the floors, they are relatively flimsy.

The point you don't seem to understand is that the columns would have had to fail before anything, including the floors, could go anywhere.

The columns were quite stocky in the twin towers and would have needed to lose lateral support for about five stories before being slender enough to buckle under their load.

The reality is that there was no deceleration because the core columns were taken out at the 98th floor and the core then pulled the perimeter columns inward through the floor trusses causing them to buckle. This is how controlled demolitions of buildings with this type of construction are done.
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Then you should realize that the floors can more easily crash down than in a standard design.The floors were hung on the outer and inner columns. The attaching points break, the columns need not go anywhere. Once they lose their horizontal support of the floors, they are relatively flimsy.

Yeah, the horizontal beams in the core that we never get any data on just disappear into space.

psik
 
Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I don't vest too much energy in the discussions of the building collapses. There are oddities to me and questions that I have, but it is a discussion and topic that inevitably leads to verbatim what governmental agencies and academics have to say about the incidents.

Instead, I prefer to look at the foreign policy, geopolitical, political, realpolitikal, legislative, military and clandestine moves we made as a country before and after September 11th, 2001.

Like right now, I'm reading a book called Preventive Defense. It's by former Secretary of Defense William Perry (19th, 1994-97) and the current Deputy Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter. Their chapter on 'catastrophic terrorism' is most enlightening, considering this book was published in 1999.

Here's what former Senator Sam Nunn said about the book:

The profound changes marked by the end of the cold war require us to think anew. Drawing upon their extensive expertise in national security affairs, Bill Perry and Ash Carter meet this challenge brilliantly by laying out a thoughtful and thought-provoking U.S. defense strategy for the 21st century. If we are to avoid disasters ranging from loose nukes to catastrophic terrorism, Preventive Defense should be required reading for members of Congress and national security policymakers both at home and abroad.

Here's one of the kickers. Catastrophic terrorism became a talking point because of an article three men wrote, namely, Ashton Carter, John M. Deutch and Philip D. Zelikow.

Catastrophic Terrorism: Tackling the New Danger - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs
http://belfercenter.hks.harvard.edu/files/catastrophicterrorism-foreignaffairs-1198.pdf

Catastrophic terrorism used elsewhere:

The Hour - Google News Archive Search
Catastrophic Terrorism: Clinton Is Missing the Point | Cato Institute
When to Strike Back - NYTimes.com
International Developments Call U.S. National Security Policy into Question | Cato Institute
Year 2000 Warning from Uncle Sam: "Duck and Cover" | Cato Institute
An Agenda for Mr. Rumsfeld
How to Protect the Homeland - NYTimes.com
 
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Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The reality is that there was no deceleration because the core columns were taken out at the 98th floor and the core then pulled the perimeter columns inward through the floor trusses causing them to buckle. This is how controlled demolitions of buildings with this type of construction are done.
So you agree, the design allowed for the fall like it was, caused by the aircraft, and heat weakening the already damaged core supports.

Great!
 
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