Is the US a Christian Nation? [W:73]

[Sababa]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Wrong. That amendment states that gov't can neither establish a religion nor prohibit the free exercise of religion. Leaving it entirely up to the citizens to choose to adhere to religious views so long as they did not require others to join that religion by gov't force.

so you are talking culturally then....Your statement "wrong" is just not accurate as the nation itself is defined by the Constitution which specifically and without reservation says that the government cannot be Christian thus not a Christian nation in that respect.

Now it is influenced by culture but then that can change....as it is....thus as culture changes its identity changes so I would argue and would likely be successful that we are a Christian influenced secular country.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

YESSSS!
Back to slavery, my cotton underwear is getting too expensive.
Women should stay home and pass the potatoes.
Only land owners are the true citizens anyway so only they should have the vote.

I mean go back to before the slave trade reintroduced chattel slavery.

 

[year2late]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

We are a nation with Christians not a Christian nation.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

I mean go back to before the slave trade reintroduced chattel slavery.

Do you have a year in mind for the utopia of which you yearn?

 

[Zyphlin]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

THe constitution says we are not. But, many in the US argue that we are indeed a Christian nation.

Been oft debated on this forum before, but it largely comes down to what way yo'ure using the word "nation".

Are you using it in the lay person vernacular where "Nation" and "Country" are basically synonyms and mean the government of "The United States of America"? IE "We as a nation seek to protect the world form evil". From that stand point, the answer would be no. The "nation" in this case is a secular one, adhering to no particular religion.

Are you using it in the other lay person method of using it, where it's referencing the PEOPLE within the United States in a generalized sense. For example, how someone could say "Football is the nation's new passtime." They're not suggesting everyone in the nation likes or watches football, but rather that its the most popular thing of it's category by the citizens of this country. In this case, it would be reasonable to suggest we're a "Christian Nation", just like it's reasonable to suggest that Football is the "nation's sport".

However, as it relates to the second notion...it's basically an irrelevant one. The fact that the majority of people prefer Football to any other sport doesn't mean the government should somehow reflect that in it's laws. Why? Because regardless of what the majority feel, it's reflecting upon what is essentially a personal opinion/choice of individuals and not a tennet of government. Additionally, notions like this are fickle and able to change through natural means different than the "government" version of the word nation. For example, at one time Football wasn't the "nation's sport", it was baseball.

Finally, the question would be are you using it in the political science sense, refering to people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, etc? In that case, it could be argued that there is a large "Christian Nation" (specifically an american one) within the United States. The more accurate way to ask the question, as it relates to peoples normal meaning with it, would be if the USA is a Christian Nation-State. And that's a tricky one, as it depends on ones personal opinion of how much of those within a particular state need to share the common threads necessary to be a nation.

As it relates to all three of the above...

From a governmental sense, no we are most certainly not a "Christian Nation". Our government is secular.

From the "people of the United States" mindset, I think it was absolutely reasonable to suggest America was a "Christian Nation" at the time of the founding and some time after. I still think it's reasonable to possibly make the claim today, but it's a far more tenuous claim as the fervency of the majority is significantly decreased imho. IE, in the past I'd suggest that FAR MORE of those who identified as "Christian" were actively and routinely practicing the religion where as I believe many now consider themselves "Christian" but rarely attend church/actively engage in their faith.

As it relates to the notion of a "Nation-State", I'm believe that it would be reasonable to suggest in the early days that the United States was a Christian Nation-State. However, I believe it has not been for quite some time as the dominance of a singular religion in the majority has decreased to a significant enough degree in my opinoin, and the prevelence of that religion in the lives of those who follow it has also diminished.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

YESSSS!
Back to slavery, my cotton underwear is getting too expensive.
Women should stay home and pass the potatoes.
Only land owners are the true citizens anyway so only they should have the vote.

True, but I find that the high Enlightenment's flaw (and source of irritation) was embracing reason without the least bit of doubt.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Been oft debated on this forum before, but it largely comes down to what way yo'ure using the word "nation".

Are you using it in the lay person vernacular where "Nation" and "Country" are basically synonyms and mean the government of "The United States of America"? IE "We as a nation seek to protect the world form evil". From that stand point, the answer would be no. The "nation" in this case is a secular one, adhering to no particular religion.

Are you using it in the other lay person method of using it, where it's referencing the PEOPLE within the United States in a generalized sense. For example, how someone could say "Football is the nation's new passtime." They're not suggesting everyone in the nation likes or watches football, but rather that its the most popular thing of it's category by the citizens of this country. In this case, it would be reasonable to suggest we're a "Christian Nation", just like it's reasonable to suggest that Football is the "nation's sport".

However, as it relates to the second notion...it's basically an irrelevant one. The fact that the majority of people prefer Football to any other sport doesn't mean the government should somehow reflect that in it's laws. Why? Because regardless of what the majority feel, it's reflecting upon what is essentially a personal opinion/choice of individuals and not a tennet of government. Additionally, notions like this are fickle and able to change through natural means different than the "government" version of the word nation. For example, at one time Football wasn't the "nation's sport", it was baseball.

Finally, the question would be are you using it in the political science sense, refering to people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, etc? In that case, it could be argued that there is a large "Christian Nation" (specifically an american one) within the United States. The more accurate way to ask the question, as it relates to peoples normal meaning with it, would be if the USA is a Christian Nation-State. And that's a tricky one, as it depends on ones personal opinion of how much of those within a particular state need to share the common threads necessary to be a nation.

As it relates to all three of the above...

From a governmental sense, no we are most certainly not a "Christian Nation". Our government is secular.

From the "people of the United States" mindset, I think it was absolutely reasonable to suggest America was a "Christian Nation" at the time of the founding and some time after. I still think it's reasonable to possibly make the claim today, but it's a far more tenuous claim as the fervency of the majority is significantly decreased imho. IE, in the past I'd suggest that FAR MORE of those who identified as "Christian" were actively and routinely practicing the religion where as I believe many now consider themselves "Christian" but rarely attend church/actively engage in their faith.

As it relates to the notion of a "Nation-State", I'm believe that it would be reasonable to suggest in the early days that the United States was a Christian Nation-State. However, I believe it has not been for quite some time as the dominance of a singular religion in the majority has decreased to a significant enough degree in my opinoin, and the prevelence of that religion in the lives of those who follow it has also diminished.

I always like to remind people that if they do not think religious preference for the majority of citizens isn't reflected in the laws it passes or any other function of government, it is probably because they are so embedded with cultural Christianity they can't see it.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Do you have a year in mind for the utopia of which you yearn?

Not a utopia, but practically a golden age compared to modern times. Say the High Middle Ages.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

I mean go back to before the slave trade reintroduced chattel slavery.

What do you want to go back "to"? Forget the question about when, but what?

 

[Logicman]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Fortunately the founders were bright enough to protect this country from religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Society? Sure. Laws? Yes. Government? Not so much, I don't recall much about balance of powers, or bicameral legislatures in the Bible.

Christianity isn't just the Bible. Christianity is a religion. The U.S. government has been heavily influenced by Christianity, the religion, if only because the majority of its members have always been Christian. From the way the government has traditionally defined marriage to the way that Christianity has been used by the government as means of determining the "legitimacy" of certain populations.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Fortunately the founders were bright enough to protect this country from religion.


The same cannot be said for many of its citizens.

Apparently not enough to completely destroy and bar State churches and religious tests for public office in the early Republic. Much more in favor of divorcing state functions from official church membership? Sure. Protecting the country from religion? Not a chance.

 

[tecoyah]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Exactly

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

What do you want to go back "to"? Forget the question about when, but what?

To the days when the Catholic Church was the religion of the state and of society. To the authoritarian structure of society which did not have the modern absolute distinction between state and non-state entities (consider, if a modern government decided to become totalitarian, ruling over every aspect of life, who would stop it). To the proto-Distributist economic system. To the days of sensible distribution of governmental power, as opposed to the modern means of having a popularity contest among tens of millions of people. To name a few things.

 

[American]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Where does it say we are.

Read the OP, before you post, geezz.

 

[American]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

1st Amendment

There's isn't a word about Christianity in the 1st Amendment, nor what religion this country might be.

 

[calamity]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Been oft debated on this forum before, but it largely comes down to what way yo'ure using the word "nation".

Are you using it in the lay person vernacular where "Nation" and "Country" are basically synonyms and mean the government of "The United States of America"? IE "We as a nation seek to protect the world form evil". From that stand point, the answer would be no. The "nation" in this case is a secular one, adhering to no particular religion.

Are you using it in the other lay person method of using it, where it's referencing the PEOPLE within the United States in a generalized sense. For example, how someone could say "Football is the nation's new passtime." They're not suggesting everyone in the nation likes or watches football, but rather that its the most popular thing of it's category by the citizens of this country. In this case, it would be reasonable to suggest we're a "Christian Nation", just like it's reasonable to suggest that Football is the "nation's sport".

However, as it relates to the second notion...it's basically an irrelevant one. The fact that the majority of people prefer Football to any other sport doesn't mean the government should somehow reflect that in it's laws. Why? Because regardless of what the majority feel, it's reflecting upon what is essentially a personal opinion/choice of individuals and not a tennet of government. Additionally, notions like this are fickle and able to change through natural means different than the "government" version of the word nation. For example, at one time Football wasn't the "nation's sport", it was baseball.

Finally, the question would be are you using it in the political science sense, refering to people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, etc? In that case, it could be argued that there is a large "Christian Nation" (specifically an american one) within the United States. The more accurate way to ask the question, as it relates to peoples normal meaning with it, would be if the USA is a Christian Nation-State. And that's a tricky one, as it depends on ones personal opinion of how much of those within a particular state need to share the common threads necessary to be a nation.

As it relates to all three of the above...

From a governmental sense, no we are most certainly not a "Christian Nation". Our government is secular.

From the "people of the United States" mindset, I think it was absolutely reasonable to suggest America was a "Christian Nation" at the time of the founding and some time after. I still think it's reasonable to possibly make the claim today, but it's a far more tenuous claim as the fervency of the majority is significantly decreased imho. IE, in the past I'd suggest that FAR MORE of those who identified as "Christian" were actively and routinely practicing the religion where as I believe many now consider themselves "Christian" but rarely attend church/actively engage in their faith.

As it relates to the notion of a "Nation-State", I'm believe that it would be reasonable to suggest in the early days that the United States was a Christian Nation-State. However, I believe it has not been for quite some time as the dominance of a singular religion in the majority has decreased to a significant enough degree in my opinoin, and the prevelence of that religion in the lives of those who follow it has also diminished.

Even though our government is technically secular, I tend to agree with this: "it would be reasonable to suggest in the early days that the United States was a Christian Nation-State. However, I believe it has not been for quite some time as the dominance of a singular religion in the majority has decreased to a significant enough degree in my opinoin, and the prevelence of that religion in the lives of those who follow it has also diminished."

As for Jimmy's assertion that tax dollars should go toward helping the poor for people to really consider us a "Christian Nation", I agree, but with a slightly different opinion on what it means to "help" the poor.

1. I am against handouts without caveat to single parents. I've seen this lead to nothing but destruction of the family, a breakdown in morals, work ethic and personal responsibility. IMO, a single parent wanting financial help must agree to sterilization. Once agreed, she or he can be a full time parent all expenses paid, including free access to "the world's best healthcare." However, the state will monitor that her children are fed, clothed and educated as determined by the state. Recipients will be drug tested and spied upon to ensure they do not violate a myriad of rules. No free lunch. You don't like it, don't take the damned money.

2. If you refuse the money and your kid is homeless, without insurance or otherwise living in squalor, the state has a right to take the child away or demand the parent to comply with number 1.

3. Fathers who baby-daddy children by the half-dozen will be jailed if they refuse to be sterilized after the first child they fail to support.

4. All children will be educated and given opportunity to learn skills of a trade, depending on their intelligence and other abilities. Anyone over 18 not going to college will be expected to work, regardless the wages. No one without a child or their sterilization card gets one dime. However, the state will offer jobs programs where people with skills the state taught them can help update our crumbling infrastructure. Pay will be contingent on experience.

5. Anyone committing crimes like drug dealing or theft in order to avoid working or corrupts the work environment (white collar crime) will be subject to harsh prison terms...maybe even death

 

[American]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Where does it say we aren't an Islamic state? Or a colony meant to prep the Earth for settlement by intergalactic space aliens?

The Constitution doesn't specifically the US is not a lot of things, doesn't mean the US is those things.

I don't know what you're going on about, and I doubt you do.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Read the OP, before you post, geezz.

Read the post I was responding to.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Even though our government is technically secular, I tend to agree with this: "it would be reasonable to suggest in the early days that the United States was a Christian Nation-State. However, I believe it has not been for quite some time as the dominance of a singular religion in the majority has decreased to a significant enough degree in my opinoin, and the prevelence of that religion in the lives of those who follow it has also diminished."

As for Jimmy's assertion that tax dollars should go toward helping the poor for people to really consider us a "Christian Nation", I agree, but with a slightly different opinion on what it means to "help" the poor.

1. I am against handouts without caveat to single parents. I've seen this lead to nothing but destruction of the family, a breakdown in morals, work ethic and personal responsibility. IMO, a single parent wanting financial help must agree to sterilization. Once agreed, she or he can be a full time parent all expenses paid, including free access to "the world's best healthcare." However, the state will monitor that her children are fed, clothed and educated as determined by the state. Recipients will be drug tested and spied upon to ensure they do not violate a myriad of rules. No free lunch. You don't like it, don't take the damned money.

2. If you refuse the money and your kid is homeless, without insurance or otherwise living in squalor, the state has a right to take the child away or demand the parent to comply with number 1.

3. Fathers who baby-daddy children by the half-dozen will be jailed if they refuse to be sterilized after the first child they fail to support.

4. All children will be educated and given opportunity to learn skills of a trade, depending on their intelligence and other abilities. Anyone over 18 not going to college will be expected to work, regardless the wages. No one without a child or their sterilization card gets one dime. However, the state will offer jobs programs where people with skills the state taught them can help update our crumbling infrastructure. Pay will be contingent on experience.

5. Anyone committing crimes like drug dealing or theft in order to avoid working or corrupts the work environment (white collar crime) will be subject to harsh prison terms...maybe even death

You support coerced sterilization? That's already been tried.

 

[American]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Read the post I was responding to.

Context is important.

 

[calamity]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

You support coerced sterilization? That's already been tried.

Not sterilization based on race or religion but a requirement for state aid. And, automatic forfeiture of parental rights and personal freedom for those who fail to support their offspring. Are you OK with people breeding like rabbits but not supporting a single one of those offspring?

I know someone who is already on child #4...and she is only 21 years old.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

Not sterilization based on race or religion but a requirement for state aid. And, automatic forfeiture of parental rights and personal freedom for those who fail to support their offspring. Are you OK with people breeding like rabbits but not supporting a single one of those offspring?

I know someone who is already on child #4...and she is only 21 years old.

I believe fornication and spousal desertion should be prohibited. If a person is incarcerated, then the state should take custody of their children if no suitable relatives can be found, provided the other parent is dead, absent, or also incarcerated. If a single parent is raising a child (they were raped and kept the baby, they've served their sentence, are on parole or probation, their spouse died or left, etc.) then they should be allowed to keep the child on the same terms as everyone else and should receive social assistance as necessary, if they are unable to support themselves. This social assistance should preferably be administered at the lowest level possible. The state should in no case encourage or tolerate sterilization.

 

[calamity]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

I believe fornication and spousal desertion should be prohibited. If a person is incarcerated, then the state should take custody of their children if no suitable relatives can be found, provided the other parent is dead, absent, or also incarcerated. If a single parent is raising a child (they were raped and kept the baby, they've served their sentence, are on parole or probation, their spouse died or left, etc.) then they should be allowed to keep the child on the same terms as everyone else and should receive social assistance as necessary, if they are unable to support themselves. This social assistance should preferably be administered at the lowest level possible. The state should in no case encourage or tolerate sterilization.

I do not believe in outlawing fornication. I do however believe that if you want money from the state, you become their ward. Sterilization is step one. Being a good parent under threat of imprisonment is step two. Fathering children which are not paid for should also be a criminal offense with imprisonment as punishment--step 3.

BTW, I firmly believe the state shuld provide all who want them free contraceptives and abortions. I care only that born children are raised in a healthy, safe and productive environment.

 

[Paschendale]

Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?

The United States is a secular nation. Its people, with a few exceptions, are secular. Its government and laws are secular. Its culture is secular. There are, of course, some religious influences in it. But almost no nation or culture exists without such influences. This is a country that takes reason and modernity over religion.