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Is the NBA a true competition or an exhibition

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washunut

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I ask this because the rules of basketball, be it traveling, palming or contact versus flopping seems to have gone out the window.

In addition with this commissioner and his Star league system, calls for and against the biggest names are a joke.

Reminds me more of WWF or the globetrotters than a version of the sport called basketball.
 
Exhibition if you're declared to be a "superstar", true competition for everyone else.

If fouls were called equally, LeBron would foul out 4 times a month instead of 4 times in an entire career.
 
washunut said:
I ask this because the rules of basketball, be it traveling, palming or contact versus flopping seems to have gone out the window.

In addition with this commissioner and his Star league system, calls for and against the biggest names are a joke.

Reminds me more of WWF or the globetrotters than a version of the sport called basketball.
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I always consider the sport pointless to watch, because 99% of the time only the last minute or less matters.
 
washunut said:
I ask this because the rules of basketball, be it traveling, palming or contact versus flopping seems to have gone out the window.

In addition with this commissioner and his Star league system, calls for and against the biggest names are a joke.

Reminds me more of WWF or the globetrotters than a version of the sport called basketball.
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For people who learned the game decades ago the things you cite are a travesty. If you brought back some refs from the Seventies they would call traveling or carrying the ball on nearly every trip down the court. Then you have the clear out which destroys the need to pass the ball especially when you give the player with the ball an extra step at the start of his move and another at the finish of it.

The worst thing that every happened to the game was the dunk. Fans became obsessed with it and the league did all they could to encourage it and make sure there were lots of them.
 
Arbo said:
I always consider the sport pointless to watch, because 99% of the time only the last minute or less matters.
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thats my biggest problem with basketball its too easy to score points for both teams. So if a team is much better its a blow out and if they are equal it comes down to the final 5 mins 9 times out of 10.
 
I love the game still but watching LeBron take 7 steps in the Finals was an unimaginable horror. Jordan ruined the game. Magic and Bird would tear up guys like LeBron and Kobe if they had to play by 80's rules.
 
Solution: Watch hockey.
 
washunut said:
I ask this because the rules of basketball, be it traveling, palming or contact versus flopping seems to have gone out the window.

In addition with this commissioner and his Star league system, calls for and against the biggest names are a joke.

Reminds me more of WWF or the globetrotters than a version of the sport called basketball.
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First off.. just for the record.. I love Basketball.. it is my second favourite sport after football. Sadly the NBA plays in the middle of the night so I never get to watch it.. but I do watch the Spanish and European leagues when I have time.

But back to the NBA..it is an exhibition. There is no threat to the teams sports wise. LA Clippers would have been in the 10th division if it was real football.. but nope they stayed in the top division despite having loss season after loss season. There is no real competition in the NBA (or any American sports) when it comes down to things.

If you compare it to an European football league you get to see the problem.

Take the English Premiership. Yes it is dominated by big money and it is the "usual suspects" that often are in the top 5 and that in it self is bad. But saying that, the rest of the league is quite competitive since they have the incentive to avoid relegation and (relative) financial Armageddon. Take a team like Leeds. It use to be "THE" team in England in the 1960s and 1970s. It was actually fighting for the title and in European football in the late 1990s...and was Champions as late as 1991. But, they did it on debt and bad financial management along with poor performances, so the consequences were there. Relegation, bankruptcy and relegation. At one point they were in the 4th tier of English football.. and this is a team that won 3 titles and has a 40k seater stadium. Now days they are slowly moving up the ranks and have been sniffing at the golden land of the English Premiership yet again the last few years.

Now lets compare that to the LA Clippers. They have had similar troubles to Leeds, and been last or near last in their division years on end. The consequences? Nothing. They were last or close to last , never making the playoffs... from 1976 to 1991 and 1994 to 2004 (minus one year). If that had been in England.. then the team would have been pushed into the conference if not much further.

Point is.. Leeds failed financially and especially sports wise and there was consequences. LA Clippers failed also, but there were no consequences what so ever for the team or the owners... they stayed in the very lucrative top division.

Due to the league structure, and the power of the owners, then the rules and the teams are made to continue the money train rather than benefit the sports. For example.. the whole structure. When the NBA was formed, it was wise to have regional divisions and east vs west. Transportation was expensive. However.. now days? What is the argument now? Sure do an East vs West.. but make it an West vs East division with the top 4 going to the play offs. It is in principle what is going on now, but you are still stuck in the same league structure that was around 40+ years ago. Which means that a team like the LA clippers despite ending 5th in their division of 5.... went to the play-offs in 1996-97 season (and lost) because their win to loss ratio was good enough for an over all 8th place. I know it is a minor thing but it shows the over problem with the NBA (and other US sports).. they are not following with the times and often living in the past.. rules and structural wise, while padding their own pockets and neglecting the sports.

For one I would make two divisions.. East and West.. no regions. And the East teams play only the East teams, and the West on the West. Then the top 4 in each division play playoffs. It would make the division aspect far more interesting for the fan, plus easier to figure out.. right now you need a math degree often to figure out who is actually a good team.. see LA clippers in 1996-7.

Now I would also add a feeder league of course.. so the bottom two would go down and new blood from the feeder league would come up. Of course that would never fly with the owners.. it is after a closed club, where buying a team needs pre-approval by the owners.. wtf!

So in short.. yes it is exhibition, but it is damn entertaining I would say.. and not as fake as "pro wrestling".
 
Your Star said:
It's the best sport out there :shrug:
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I would agree if there were no football, soccer, tennis, basketball, golf, rugby, track and field, MMA or thumb wrestling...
 
Pete, what your analogy (which is very good btw) fails to realize is that in the US the major sports are pretty much singular entities. The NFL, NHL, NBA, and MLB are really each their own individual business and the franshises are really just departments of that business. There is no relegation (an idea I actually like) in these sports because there is nowhere else for these teams to go.There is no lower level for them to be relegated to.

In fact with the recent (relatively) movement by all but one of these leagues to a Salary-Cap system, more than ever the individual teams really mean less and less to the league as a whole. This means the NBA is much more interested in the NBA making money, getting fan support, etc... than whether the Celtics, Magic, Lakers, Grizzlies, etc... are getting fan support and money. To that end, all four pro sports in the US have realized that they need STAR POWER to bring in the interest. The only one of the sports that even comes close to bucking that trend in the NFL, where any team can truly beat any other team on any given Sunday (something I'm not terribly fond of).

Now, to the topic of the OP..... My late father referred to the NBA as "Wrestling in shorts" and refused to watch it or allow any of us kids to watch it. "When they start enforcing the rulebook again, maybe I'll start watching again." was his comment. I tend to agree. Between the "urban" attitudes, personalities, and appearance of the players and the lack of any apparent cohesive officiating system, I really have no use for the NBA or even college basketball.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I would agree if there were no football, soccer, tennis, basketball, golf, rugby, track and field, MMA or thumb wrestling...
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Did you forget professional worm racing? I love the costumes and entrance music.

Seriously, pro hoops were the best starting with the NBA-ABA merger and going through the mid 90's. The game always had two very different components which came together beautifully at that time. There was the basic fundamental game - or what some call the white game. Things like the give and go, hitting the open man, coaches screaming at you that a five foot shot is better than an nine foot shot which is better than a twelve foot shot etc. The idea was that five guys skilled in fundamental team play could defeat five better athletes who were not playing together as one unit. Think of the Celtics with Russell and Cousy and company. Then you had the more open, more individualistic, city game - the black game - as personified by the run and gun style of the old ABA. Think George Gervin and the old Spurs or Dr. J with the Nets.

When the leagues merged in 76 it was a thing of beauty as both of those came together. Basketball was nearly perfect and guys like Bird and Magic and Jordan only made it better.

But then they changed the rules allowing for traveling at the start and conclusion of a move. They allowed for carrying the ball endlessly. They allowed for the one on one clear out. It became ridiculous and the game has suffered as individual stars have been elevated over the team concept.

Gimme Bill Walton and the Trailblazers when the won the title. They could kill the Heat.
 
Tigger said:
Pete, what your analogy (which is very good btw) fails to realize is that in the US the major sports are pretty much singular entities. The NFL, NHL, NBA, and MLB are really each their own individual business and the franshises are really just departments of that business. There is no relegation (an idea I actually like) in these sports because there is nowhere else for these teams to go.There is no lower level for them to be relegated to.
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No that is exactly what I mean with my analogy. There is no sportswise threat to the teams. They can play like **** for a decade and still maintain their league status. There is no consequences for a bad sport performance and there should be... that is why I say the whole NFL, NBA and baseball are nothing but communist entities.

In fact with the recent (relatively) movement by all but one of these leagues to a Salary-Cap system, more than ever the individual teams really mean less and less to the league as a whole. This means the NBA is much more interested in the NBA making money, getting fan support, etc... than whether the Celtics, Magic, Lakers, Grizzlies, etc... are getting fan support and money. To that end, all four pro sports in the US have realized that they need STAR POWER to bring in the interest. The only one of the sports that even comes close to bucking that trend in the NFL, where any team can truly beat any other team on any given Sunday (something I'm not terribly fond of).
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Another communist like problem. On the flip side.. the nutso wages in football over here are also a problem. No one is worth 250k US dollars a week.
 
PeteEU said:
No that is exactly what I mean with my analogy. There is no sportswise threat to the teams. They can play like **** for a decade and still maintain their league status. There is no consequences for a bad sport performance and there should be... that is why I say the whole NFL, NBA and baseball are nothing but communist entities.
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NBA, NHL, and NFL are definitely communist entities. In fact I've been making that arguement about the NFL for almost two decades now (since the 1994 inception of the salary cap). MLB is a different thing. MLB has no salary cap. There are most definitely haves and have-nots in Major League Baseball. The difference is that you can get a lot more out of less expensive players in MLB than you can in most of the other sports. Additionally, MLB is the only league to have a true minor-league system, which makes it easier for small-market teams to win in the short-term.
 
Tigger said:
NBA, NHL, and NFL are definitely communist entities. In fact I've been making that arguement about the NFL for almost two decades now (since the 1994 inception of the salary cap). MLB is a different thing. MLB has no salary cap. There are most definitely haves and have-nots in Major League Baseball. The difference is that you can get a lot more out of less expensive players in MLB than you can in most of the other sports. Additionally, MLB is the only league to have a true minor-league system, which makes it easier for small-market teams to win in the short-term.
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I can understand the idea of a salary cap... but it should not be total, but per player if anything. The idea that other players have to take a cut or not get as much just because X star has to get an insane salary really pisses me off. No one is worth so much more than others.. the X star would be nothing if it was not for the team as a whole.

In football, there is no salary cap.. which has resulted in nutso wages in some leagues. The English is the worst, with several "stars" getting 250k a week and many around the 200k.. and that is often on just a few teams. This also has the flip side, that when a player getting that wage is to be sold on.. then he would have to get a massive salary cut because no other teams can afford the salary outside a select few teams owned by billionaires.

This in turn also means that these clubs with the big stars often run with massive red numbers so to say. Now there has been put in some rules to prevent this in the future, but a salary cap of some sort should also be put in place in my opinion.

As I have stated.. no one in any sport is worth 250k US dollars a week.
 
The sport is going in the direction the fans want it to go in. They want the hard contact and massive dunks. I personally do not think the game is as fun to watch as it was in the 70's and 80's. Still though, even though it is a different game than 30 or whatever years ago, these guys are damn good at what they do.
 
I knew it was only a matter of time before we got to the "salary cap + revenue sharing" = socialism argument :roll:
 
00timh said:
The sport is going in the direction the fans want it to go in. They want the hard contact and massive dunks. I personally do not think the game is as fun to watch as it was in the 70's and 80's. Still though, even though it is a different game than 30 or whatever years ago, these guys are damn good at what they do.
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NBA fans are not a monolith. While I disagree with Wash's assertion that the NBA has become an "exhibition" sport, he brings up some real issues. Hardcore NBA fans like myself absolutely HATE some of the crap that's going on in the league (both on the court and in front offices), but the NBA knows we're already hardcore fans and that we'll watch anyway so they don't need to cater to our desires. They're trying to cater to the casual/fringe fans out there in order to expand their brand.
 
StillBallin75 said:
I knew it was only a matter of time before we got to the "salary cap + revenue sharing" = socialism argument :roll:
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Well it is.. but what is more "socialism" is the fact that new teams have to be pre-approved by the owners.. hell even selling your team needs approving.
 
StillBallin75 said:
NBA fans are not a monolith. While I disagree with Wash's assertion that the NBA has become an "exhibition" sport, he brings up some real issues. Hardcore NBA fans like myself absolutely HATE some of the crap that's going on in the league (both on the court and in front offices), but the NBA knows we're already hardcore fans and that we'll watch anyway so they don't need to cater to our desires. They're trying to cater to the casual/fringe fans out there in order to expand their brand.
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Just to clarify, I intentionally went a bit over the top with the term exhibition to display my displeasure and see what others thought. Growing up in NYC and watching especially the Knicks and though I don't like them the Celtics and the teamwork they played with in the 60s and 70s. To me I guess that will always be the real basketball.
 
washunut said:
Just to clarify, I intentionally went a bit over the top with the term exhibition to display my displeasure and see what others thought. Growing up in NYC and watching especially the Knicks and though I don't like them the Celtics and the teamwork they played with in the 60s and 70s. To me I guess that will always be the real basketball.
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When it comes to the playoffs and even often times at the end of a close game in the reg season, you see a lot better play. I also think that the NBA and especially MLB, the seasons are too long and drawn out. In the NFL, you could have a team that is 2-4 while the division leader at 5-1. The 2-4 team is by no means out of the playoffs, and the 5-1 team is not a lock. Take the same W/L percentage at the same juncture in the season and one team is already out while the league leader is basically a lock.
 
StillBallin75 said:
NBA fans are not a monolith. While I disagree with Wash's assertion that the NBA has become an "exhibition" sport, he brings up some real issues. Hardcore NBA fans like myself absolutely HATE some of the crap that's going on in the league (both on the court and in front offices), but the NBA knows we're already hardcore fans and that we'll watch anyway so they don't need to cater to our desires. They're trying to cater to the casual/fringe fans out there in order to expand their brand.
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Yes this!

its competition, plan and simple.
And people that are REAL fans and not observers know this.
Are there things that are going on to water it down to cater to the observers? of course just like every major sport where officials can have a slight impact on the game and if they cant they do it behind the scenes with money etc.

Yes I miss the 80 ball but that doesnt mean there isnt competition now, thats silly
 
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