Is the burka a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

[ProgressPlease]

That seems like a stretch since some are compliant because they share the same religious beliefs. There are plenty of laws we have which one could view as forced upon us, but many of us may comply without feeling forced because we agree with them.

If there is a law stating that all women must cover themselves head to toe, that is an egregious abuse of women's autonomy.

I'm disappointed that people (I'm not referring to you specifically) who tout themselves as progressives have become apologists for the subjugation of women in the name of religion. It is totally backward and part of why the term progressive no longer holds meaning for me.

I expect this from the RW and I know their game is to condemn all muslims as evil and pit them against christians as good. This does not mean the other side must suddenly come to the defense of religious draconian practices that specifically harm women and girls. I don't care which religion it is. It's wrong.

 

[mrjurrs]

Is the burka a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

In Afghanistan the burka is now mandatory again.

Therefore this poll now - but about the burka worldwide.

Good when it's a personal choice. Bad when its use is dictated.

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

I'd say stupid. I'd say that about any religious specific clothing that one must wear becuase some ancient book of story tells them to.

And the burka in particular is to repress women. Because religious extremists feel guilty about completely normal biological attraction to opposite sex, they feel the need to just want to block it out of sight by keeping women covered up. Of course, men don't require being covered up

 

[Allan]

Of course not, however it is the business of Governments when people hide there identity.

Really?

How about these items that hide identity?




Both legal, as are tinted sun visors, sunglasses and masks etc. Do you only care about hidden identity when it's a Muslim woman?

 

[ElChupacabra]

If there is a law stating that all women must cover themselves head to toe, that is an egregious abuse of women's autonomy.

For those who don't believe in it, sure. All I'm saying is there are women who agree with those beliefs and comply to these traditions.

I'm disappointed that people (I'm not referring to you specifically) who tout themselves as progressives have become apologists for the subjugation of women in the name of religion. It is totally backward and part of why the term progressive no longer holds meaning for me.

I'm not a person of faith, so these practices and traditions are all a bit odd to me, but at the same time I don't want to assume that all women are a hive mind and all find religious traditions as subjugation; especially when many faiths are all about submitting to a higher being/purpose. For me, the progress is giving women the option to opt out and not dictating to them what they should do in this regard.

I expect this from the RW and I know their game is to condemn all muslims as evil and pit them against christians as good. This does not mean the other side must suddenly come to the defense of religious draconian practices that specifically harm women and girls. I don't care which religion it is. It's wrong.

In this particular case I do agree that it is wrong for the state to mandate this kind of thing, because then there is no option but to comply. I've seen women in burkas in the US, and at least here there it is not a state mandated requirement, yet despite that we have women in religious groups complying to some of these restrictive practices.

 

[ProgressPlease]

For those who don't believe in it, sure. All I'm saying is there are women who agree with those beliefs and comply to these traditions.


I'm not a person of faith, so these practices and traditions are all a bit odd to me, but at the same time I don't want to assume that all women are a hive mind and all find religious traditions as subjugation; especially when many faiths are all about submitting to a higher being/purpose. For me, the progress is giving women the option to opt out and not dictating to them what they should do in this regard.


In this particular case I do agree that it is wrong for the state to mandate this kind of thing, because then there is no option but to comply. I've seen women in burkas in the US, and at least here there it is not a state mandated requirement, yet despite that we have women in religious groups complying to some of these restrictive practices.

I agree and I certainly would not want to be told what I can and cannot wear. Legislating women's dress should be seen as universally awful, I think. There are religious and cultural practices that are dehumanizing specifically to girls and women. I'm not aware of this happening to men though certainly there are backward cultural norms which negatively impact boys and men who display "feminine" characteristic - these need to be done away with.
I imagine there are always exceptions but for the most part, girls being raised in these environments do not really have free will to develop their own sense of self and autonomy away from the rules and regulations of men. This happens in some form in many religions and cultures. I know catholic women who are still recovering from being told repeatedly by their fathers and the priests at their Catholic Churches and schools that it's a sin to show their body, to have impure thoughts, to touch themselves or look at their own naked bodies. It's an awful burden to grow up that way.

 

[ElChupacabra]

I agree and I certainly would not want to be told what I can and cannot wear. Legislating women's dress should be seen as universally awful, I think. There are religious and cultural practices that are dehumanizing specifically to girls and women. I'm not aware of this happening to men though certainly there are backward cultural norms which negatively impact boys and men who display "feminine" characteristic - these need to be done away with.
I imagine there are always exceptions but for the most part, girls being raised in these environments do not really have free will to develop their own sense of self and autonomy away from the rules and regulations of men. This happens in some form in many religions and cultures. I know catholic women who are still recovering from being told repeatedly by their fathers and the priests at their Catholic Churches and schools that it's a sin to show their body, to have impure thoughts, to touch themselves or look at their own naked bodies. It's an awful burden to grow up that way.

Yep, I don't disagree that there are repressive aspects of some religions and beliefs. The challenge with much of this is traditions based on the conditions people faced in the past where controlling women to ensure small groups/tribes could continue to reproduce and survive are not applicable in the modern age and should have adapted. You have some religions which have acclimated better than others, but that was not without a lot of effort and pressure from more secular societies.

 

[gboisjo]

Really?

How about these items that hide identity?

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Both legal, as are tinted sun visors, sunglasses and masks etc. Do you only care about hidden identity when it's a Muslim woman?

Totally ridiculous comparison. The Burka bans in Europe are twofold ..identity and the desire for integration of immigrants into society.

I'm talking about the bans you intially said didn't exist, yep, keep on winging it.

 

[Allan]

Totally ridiculous comparison. The Burka bans in Europe are twofold ..identity and the desire for integration of immigrants into society.

Nonsense. The burka bans in Europe are driven by bigotry. If countries like France wanted to integrate Muslims into society Le Pen would be washing dishes in a restaurant instead of getting sizable support in elections.

 

[ataraxia]

How could it be a good thing for women to be forced to cover their bodies from head to toe including their faces? Why are people pretending that Afghani women are choosing this?

Because they have been raised since childhood to see it as a sign of being a good, decent, and chaste person. It would be like saying that in the US women are forced to wear bras and panties in public, and they have no choice in the matter. For most American women, the thought doesn't even cross their minds to want the freedom to do otherwise. It's just what society and culture expects a decent woman to do. There are many cultures and societies in the world, from many Polynesian islands, to the Amazon or Africa, where that custom of western women to always cover up their chest and groin areas seems as odd and oppressive as the burqa seems to us.

 

[gboisjo]

In this particular case I do agree that it is wrong for the state to mandate this kind of thing, because then there is no option but to comply. I've seen women in burkas in the US, and at least here there it is not a state mandated requirement, yet despite that we have women in religious groups complying to some of these restrictive practices.

I've seen a few, just a few and they definitely caught my eye, I think these few were most likely looking for the attention.

The vast number of immigrants from the Middle East to the US are not interested in wearing Burkas, its a little different in Europe thus the bans.

 

[ProgressPlease]

Because they have been raised since childhood to see it as a sign of being a good, decent, and chaste person.

They have been raised since birth to understand they must submit to the men in the family. They are property. There are western faiths that do the same so this is not about targeting muslims specifically. Why defend draconian practices?
You are fine with girls losing access to education? You're fine with laws requiring women to cover from head to toe?

It would be like saying that in the US women are forced to wear bras and panties in public, and they have no choice in the matter.

Most places in the US have "decency" laws requiring us to cover certain areas of our bodies in public. Frankly, one has to wonder whether these laws make sense but wearing bras (which, btw, provide comfort and support) and panties, are nothing like being forced to cover ourselves head to toe because men told us to do it and under threat. I can go topless at plenty of beaches. I doubt anyone would stop me even where it is supposedly not allowed. Thong bikinis are also fine.

For most American women, the thought doesn't even cross their minds to want the freedom to do otherwise.

Actually it does cross our minds. We have quite a lot of freedom to wear, or not wear, what we wish. I take it you haven't walked through NYC.

It's just what society and culture expects a decent woman to do.

You don't sound very liberal.

 

[ataraxia]

They have been raised since birth to understand they must submit to the men in the family. They are property. There are western faiths that do the same so this is not about targeting muslims specifically. Why defend draconian practices?
You are fine with girls losing access to education? You're fine with laws requiring women to cover from head to toe?

Most places in the US have "decency" laws requiring us to cover certain areas of our bodies in public. Frankly, one has to wonder whether these laws make sense but wearing bras (which, btw, provide comfort and support) and panties, are nothing like being forced to cover ourselves head to toe because men told us to do it and under threat. I can go topless at plenty of beaches. I doubt anyone would stop me even where it is supposedly not allowed. Thong bikinis are also fine.


Actually it does cross our minds. We have quite a lot of freedom to wear, or not wear, what we wish. I take it you haven't walked through NYC.

You don't sound very liberal.

I think you are misunderstanding my position. I am playing devil's advocate here trying to explain the psychology of why many women are not only OK with wearing a burqa themselves, but will actively fight to impose it on the other women in their society. I am doing this because I think you are misunderstanding the problem. I do think that to solve a problem, you need to understand it well first. It's not just the men who are forcing many of these women to do this. That's a misunderstanding of the problem and if you approach it that way you are not going to solve the problem. There are many women who are not only eager, but will actively fight hard to have such a system in place. None of them do it with the mindset of "I want to be oppressed". They do it because they think that's the right thing to do.

This doesn't happen just in Islamic societies. Do you remember Michele Bachmann? She was a congresswoman from MN who became pretty famous as a candidate for the GOP presidential primaries- educated as a lawyer and one of the most powerful women in the US. Here is her mindset:

"Back in October 2006, recounting her life journey to an audience at the Living Word Christian Center, Bachmann talked about “receiving Jesus” at 16, studying hard, meeting her future husband at college, and earning a law degree. “My husband said ‘Now you need to go and get a post-doctorate degree in tax law.’ Tax law! I hate taxes — why should I go and do something like that?” she told the audience. “But the Lord says be submissive. Wives, you are to be submissive to your husbands.”

Bachmann said she never had taken a tax course, “never had a desire for it,” but “I was going to be faithful to what I felt God was calling me to do through my husband.” Later, when the opportunity to run for Congress arose, “my husband said, ‘Now you need to do this,’ and I wasn’t so sure.” She became sure two days later, after praying and fasting with her husband."

Bachmann has said she's submissive to her husband - MinnPost

In a story last week in the Daily Beast, national political writer Jill Lawrence examined Congresswoman Michele Bachmann's core religious belief that she should be submissive to her husband: Back in October 2006, recounting her life journey to a

www.minnpost.com

So why was she doing all this? Because she has been taught since childhood that that kind of submissiveness is what is expected of a good, "decent" woman. That is her culture.

Here are Iranian women, protesting in support of the Ayatollah Khomeini, who had just made the hijab mandatory again for them and taken away many of their educational rights. They seem to be more than OK with it. They were actively and passionately fighting for it:





These are all dangerously dysfunctional cultures, to be sure. You will get no argument from me there. But the solution, whatever it is, is going to have to involve getting women who don't think they are opprossed that they are oppressed- a tall order. Culture change is never easy, no matter how dysfunctional the culture.

 

[gboisjo]

Nonsense. The burka bans in Europe are driven by bigotry. If countries like France wanted to integrate Muslims into society Le Pen would be washing dishes in a restaurant instead of getting sizable support in elections.

BS ..if a person wants to leave a country of origin, should be open to the customs and culture of the new home ..common ****ing sense 101.

Before immigration is granted these are the kinds of questions they have to answer. The bans in Europe have been passed by governments in countries who are not bigoted.

I mean is Denmark a bigoted country, get real ..far left BS.

 

[Allan]

BS ..if a person wants to leave a country of origin, should be open to the customs and culture of the new home ..common ****ing sense 101.

No first generation immigrant group has ever fully adopted the customs of their new home. They don't speak the language, eat the food or worship in keeping with the majority. Some dress in attire that's traditional in their home countries.

If you don't like that fine. But don't try to convince us your complaint has anything to do with concern for Muslim women. You could not be more transparent.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Is the burka a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

In Afghanistan the burka is now mandatory again.

Therefore this poll now - but about the burka worldwide.

It's good for people who want to wear it, and it's bad for people who don't want to wear it but are forced to.

 

[psikeyhackr]

It is an inherently neutral thing but if some people are forcing other people to wear it then it is a bad thing.

 

[gboisjo]

It is an inherently neutral thing but if some people are forcing other people to wear it then it is a bad thing.

That's the point most burkas are worn by women because they have to.

With the exception of Israel, there are no Democracies in the Middle east and North Africa.

People have little voice as to the rules especially woman.

The vast amount of woman who immigrate from that region to the US take off the burka for good.

I've seen a burka worn here maybe once in my entire life.

 

[Rumpel]

I think the Founding Fathers of the USA would turn in their graves if they knew that some of their descandents now would hail this perverse idea of the burka as a symbol of religious freedeom and a symbol for women's rights.

 

[Rumpel]

Some dress in attire that's traditional in their home countries.

The burka is not "traditional" anywhere - nor is it truely Islamic.
It has been forced upon women by Taliban-style fanatics.

 

[Rawley]

Is the burka a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

Depends on the woman

 

[Perotista]

Is the burka a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

In Afghanistan the burka is now mandatory again.

Therefore this poll now - but about the burka worldwide.

I'd leave it up to the individual. IF they choose to wear one, fine, if not, that's fine too.

 

[Allan]

The burka is not "traditional" anywhere -

Of course it is.

nor is it truely Islamic.

Does. Not. Matter.

It has been forced upon women by Taliban-style fanatics.

If they're living in that environment the attire is the least of their problems. It's also the stupidest possible thing you could focus on.

 

[humbolt]

Women have to wear 'em because if my gaze falls upon a woman, I'm overcome with lust. Then it's lust or bust. Mostly bust. Okay, always bust. You people are so damn picky. Fanatics have rights too, ya know.

 

[Rumpel]

If there is a law stating that all women must cover themselves head to toe, that is an egregious abuse of women's autonomy.

I'm disappointed that people (I'm not referring to you specifically) who tout themselves as progressives have become apologists for the subjugation of women in the name of religion. It is totally backward and part of why the term progressive no longer holds meaning for me.

Exactly - their can be no excuse for the burka.
And yes, it is disappointig when "progressives" are in favour of the burqa