Is taxation theft?

[Sababa]

There is some lunatic stuff on this thread. I just find it funny that the some person is complaining about government funding programs he doesn't like so he shouldn't have to pay taxes on an internet that exists because government decided to invest in an idea that many thought would be useless. (remember the internet developed when home computing was a pipe dream). Taxes are the cost of a society. Yes taxes as a whole go to things you don't like, same with me. But you could elect officials that share your values and change where the money goes. The thing is that as a country we like the government to do for us. That is a fact. We want potholes filled and we want a military to defend us. We want clean water and we want the mail to come. The idea that we can operate without a government is delusional. Hell, people can't figure out 4 way stops when there are government rules, imagine if the stop signs weren't there.

The bottom line is tax is the cost of living in a society that provides so many things that make our lives safer and more comfortable. Is the government too obtrusive? Maybe, but that isn't the result of taxes, it is the result of corrupting influence of money. Funny how many of the same people who argue about taxes also think that a small percentage of people can basically buy politicians to write laws that only benefit them.

As for telling someone to move. Funny how so many right wingers have had that as their mantra for so long when liberals protested government action. Tastes a little different now eh?

 

[tres borrachos]

I don't think taxation can be considered theft. I begrudgingly admit that taxes are necessary to fund our government, which I only wish was a lot smaller than it is. Without a government, we'd have anarchy, and I'm not a fan of anarchy.

 

[Henrin]

no, it's the bill for a stable society which allows wealth to exist in the first place. the bill is paid in dollars, which would not exist without society itself. if one decides to remain a member of this society and to accumulate wealth in it, one pays the bill for the structure. it is no more theft than rent or an electric bill is theft.

Currency is just a means of exchange and can be anything you can imagine, be that, clams, gold, silver, coal, cloth, paper currency created by private enterprise, paper currency created by government, etc. Considering that government did not create the idea of a medium of exchange and that a medium of exchange was used before government got involved in exchanges of people there is no reason to consider government is needed towards those ends. Anyone that creates currency and puts that currency in the economy has given up ownership of it and can not claim they are owed a certain amount of it after such point unless another voluntary exchange takes place.

Stable societies have existed in the past for thousands of years without any of the individuals of that society being taxed, so to claim taxes are called for to have a stable society is incorrect.

You're two comparisons to taxes are things you agree to pay for and for that reason not like taxes.

 

[Sababa]

Currency is just a means of exchange and can be anything you can imagine, be that, clams, gold, silver, coal, cloth, paper currency created by private enterprise, paper currency created by government, etc. Considering that government did not create the idea of a medium of exchange and that a medium of exchange was used before government got involved in exchanges of people there is no reason to consider government is needed towards those ends. Anyone that creates currency and puts that currency in the economy has given up ownership of it and can not claim they are owed a certain amount of it after such point unless another voluntary exchange takes place.

true anything has value if someone is willing to give you something for it. We as a society have created a system of currency that we agree on for the most part. That is a good thing. I would hate to have to deal with measuring gold out to buy a pack of gum.

Stable societies have existed in the past for thousands of years without any of the individuals of that society being taxed, so to claim taxes are called for to have a stable society is incorrect.

Name one.

You're two comparisons to taxes are things you agree to pay for and for that reason not like taxes.

Well they have some comparative value, you are correct though taxes aren't straight up voluntary except when they are added to purchases.

 

[Gardener]

It's always so cute when people who utilize all those various services paid via taxes try to call it theft when it comes time to pony up. If there is any "theft" inherent in such a dynamic, it would more applicable towards thechildish people who partake but don't pay.

I have no problem with people who wish to go live in a cave, somewhere, without electicity or a car, eeking out their grubby little existance by foraging for food using only those implements they made themselves from materials they collected personally. At least they would not be hypocrites of the highest order if they whined about taxes. For everybody else, thouhg? Get real.

The sooner,the better.

 

[radcen]

Currency is just a means of exchange and can be anything you can imagine, be that, clams, gold, silver, coal, cloth, paper currency created by private enterprise, paper currency created by government, etc. Considering that government did not create the idea of a medium of exchange and that a medium of exchange was used before government got involved in exchanges of people there is no reason to consider government is needed towards those ends. Anyone that creates currency and puts that currency in the economy has given up ownership of it and can not claim they are owed a certain amount of it after such point unless another voluntary exchange takes place.

Stable societies have existed in the past for thousands of years without any of the individuals of that society being taxed, so to claim taxes are called for to have a stable society is incorrect.

You're two comparisons to taxes are things you agree to pay for and for that reason not like taxes.

That's a pretty bold statement. Too bold to just throw out there and not expect people to want more. Can you provide names of these idyllic societies?

Even if some did not use a monetary system as we think of it, they probably had other things which people were required to do, such as collaborative jobs for the good of the overall community, or whatever. At that point you're only substituting slavery for theft. Six of one, and half a dozen of the other. Neither of which would be acceptable to a good libertarian such as yourself.

 

[AJiveMan]

So if somebody comes up to you, aims a deadly weapon at you, and demands your money, that’s armed robbery, right?

But if the perpetrator pulls a card out of his pocket that says he’s an employee of some government agency, for some reason, it all becomes perfectly legal. Why?

I’ve posed this question to friends and acquaintances many of times, and the conversation usually goes something like this:

Them: You cannot compare government revenue collection to armed robbery by a street thug.
Me: Why not?
Them: Well you just can’t. They’re different.
Me: Why can’t I? How are they different?
Them: They just are.
Me: Why are they “just are”?
Them: Well if you can’t understand it, I can’t explain it to you!!

And at that point the conversation ends.

Anyone want to take a stab at answering this?

Life in America has three constants, life, taxes and death, if you can escape the taxes and death, you're doing good.

 

[thinkforyoursel]

Dude, look at my profile. I'm a libertarian - not a conservative. It's the right-wing conservatives who do all the chest-thumping rah-rah-rah stuff. We libertarians don't want anything, except for government to leave people alone.

As for packing up and leaving America, that's not the solution. We need to work together to fix our nation's problems, not run away from them. Besides, other than living alone on an island, I don't know of any zero-tax nations out there ...

If you're only here for circular meaningless debate...then knock yourself out.

But i still maintain what I said before. The right wing is filled with people who want to live in splendor ...brag about being an American and bitch and gripe about contributing in anyway. They don't want to pay taxes.....but they want to live in a country with all the amenities possible...they don't want to face any bullets .....but they always want war.....they don't want to be called bigots...but they want to be racists!

If you're serious ...then I urge you to pack up and leave America. Nothing will change ...nothing...and yes ..there are countries out there where you pay no taxes....they are not good places to live ...but they do exists. Which harkens to your conundrum ...to live in the lap of luxury and never contributing to it.

As for changing the system....good luck....the people who aren't liberals ...are not for small government ....what they really want is a right wing ..BIG...government!

 

[Papa bull]

If you're only here for circular meaningless debate...then knock yourself out.

But i still maintain what I said before. The right wing is filled with people who want to live in splendor ...brag about being an American and bitch and gripe about contributing in anyway. They don't want to pay taxes.....but they want to live in a country with all the amenities possible...they don't want to face any bullets .....but they always want war.....they don't want to be called bigots...but they want to be racists!

If you're serious ...then I urge you to pack up and leave America. Nothing will change ...nothing...and yes ..there are countries out there where you pay no taxes....they are not good places to live ...but they do exists. Which harkens to your conundrum ...to live in the lap of luxury and never contributing to it.

As for changing the system....good luck....the people who aren't liberals ...are not for small government ....what they really want is a right wing ..BIG...government!

And the left is filled with people who just say stuff. You gave a very good example of that. You just say whatever pleases you without even the slightest concern that it's complete bullcrap.

 

[Helix]

Currency is just a means of exchange and can be anything you can imagine, be that, clams, gold, silver, coal, cloth, paper currency created by private enterprise, paper currency created by government, etc. Considering that government did not create the idea of a medium of exchange and that a medium of exchange was used before government got involved in exchanges of people there is no reason to consider government is needed towards those ends. Anyone that creates currency and puts that currency in the economy has given up ownership of it and can not claim they are owed a certain amount of it after such point unless another voluntary exchange takes place.

Stable societies have existed in the past for thousands of years without any of the individuals of that society being taxed, so to claim taxes are called for to have a stable society is incorrect.

You're two comparisons to taxes are things you agree to pay for and for that reason not like taxes.

please provide some examples of these tax free, stable societies.

 

[Henrin]

true anything has value if someone is willing to give you something for it. We as a society have created a system of currency that we agree on for the most part. That is a good thing. I would hate to have to deal with measuring gold out to buy a pack of gum.

You have to have the correct amount of currency for an exchange no matter what the means of exchange happens to be. If clams was the means of exchange and the price of the good you wanted was five clams, you need five clams to buy it. If it is paper currency and the price of good you wanted was five dollars, you need five dollars to buy it. The government doesn't remove this requirement or even change any aspect of it. There is obviously going to be advantages and disadvantages to whatever you decide on as a means of exchange, but pretty much anything can work as a currency. The trouble measuring out gold is hardly a good argument as how gold is inferior to government created currency.

Name one.

Native American tribes, tribal societies throughout Central and South America, African tribes, and societies in the Middle East. Yes, none of those were societies based on private property, but the fact remains that all of those societies were stable for thousands of years.

Well they have some comparative value, you are correct though taxes aren't straight up voluntary except when they are added to purchases.

If I decide to work, invest, buy, gift, own land, etc, and the government is taking my property against my will or forcing me to pay them, then you can not call that exchange of property voluntary.

 

[radcen]

Native American tribes, tribal societies throughout Central and South America, African tribes, and societies in the Middle East. Yes, none of those were societies based on private property, but the fact remains that all of those societies were stable for thousands of years.

Why do people seem to think that societies without written documented histories that show their problems as well as their successes were somehow idyllic? I'm sure they had their issues just as we do, and the fact that they lasted for a long time doesn't negate that.

 

[Amanda1858]

So if somebody comes up to you, aims a deadly weapon at you, and demands your money, that’s armed robbery, right?

But if the perpetrator pulls a card out of his pocket that says he’s an employee of some government agency, for some reason, it all becomes perfectly legal. Why?

I’ve posed this question to friends and acquaintances many of times, and the conversation usually goes something like this:

Them: You cannot compare government revenue collection to armed robbery by a street thug.
Me: Why not?
Them: Well you just can’t. They’re different.
Me: Why can’t I? How are they different?
Them: They just are.
Me: Why are they “just are”?
Them: Well if you can’t understand it, I can’t explain it to you!!

And at that point the conversation ends.

Anyone want to take a stab at answering this?

I'll try to answer you. If you refuse to give your money to the armed robber, he may shoot you and still take your money anyway. If you refuse to give your money to the government they will put you in jail and still take your money anyway. So---you can't win.

 

[MaggieD]

So if somebody comes up to you, aims a deadly weapon at you, and demands your money, that’s armed robbery, right?

But if the perpetrator pulls a card out of his pocket that says he’s an employee of some government agency, for some reason, it all becomes perfectly legal. Why?

I’ve posed this question to friends and acquaintances many of times, and the conversation usually goes something like this:

Them: You cannot compare government revenue collection to armed robbery by a street thug.
Me: Why not?
Them: Well you just can’t. They’re different.
Me: Why can’t I? How are they different?
Them: They just are.
Me: Why are they “just are”?
Them: Well if you can’t understand it, I can’t explain it to you!!

And at that point the conversation ends.

Anyone want to take a stab at answering this?

Because we are a nation of laws. As a republic, our elected representatives have passed legal and constitutional income taxes and every other kind of tax collected by the Federal government. We pretty much took care of this at a Tea Party long ago.

 

[Amanda1858]

You must not have very intelligent friends.

The very obvious basis for taxation is payment for access to society's resources, infrastructure, technology, currency and protections.

The less obvious basis is that since private property by definition is a limitation on other people's liberty - you're forbidden from touching what I 'own' - the principles governing ownership can only be ethically justified and fairly implemented on the same basis of democratic consent as all other restrictions of liberty: And in most Western democracies, those principles include the fact that you don't have an absolute ownership claim on every penny which touches your hands.

Other democratic societies might have quite different principles of ownership, such as socialism. Aren't you glad that your society permits you to own as much as it does? If you want to own even more, you are free to have your say about that.

It's just sad how often this robbery nonsense is brought out by folk who think that their views, not everyone else's, should determine social policy.

My daughter and I were discussing this just a few days ago. We both came to the agreement that as citizens of the United Staes we never really own anything. Even after your house is paid off free and clear, the government can take it if you get behind in your property taxes by 5 years. If you truly owned the place, they couldn't do that.

 

[radcen]

My daughter and I were discussing this just a few days ago. We both came to the agreement that as citizens of the United Staes we never really own anything. Even after your house is paid off free and clear, the government can take it if you get behind in your property taxes by 5 years. If you truly owned the place, they couldn't do that.

This has always bugged me, but it's not going to change.

 

[imagep]

Im a libertarian and I believe taxes are theft but I also feel thats its a necessary evil in order for society to function. At the same time I believe in a small government in order for its citizens to pay the least amount of taxes possible. I also favor a flat tax and no income tax.

paying your bills is not theft. Our taxes are our government bills, pretty much like our power bills, our insurance bills, our food bills, etc.

 

[imagep]

This has always bugged me, but it's not going to change.

We never really own anything in life. We just pay a rent for a product for whatever period of time we control that product. Ya can't take it with ya when your dead.

Anyhow, I kinda like the idea that the government should own all land, since God (mother nature, science, whatever) gave it to all of mankind. Then we just rent land from the government, with the price of the rent more or less reflecting the economic value of the land. That might be the most "fair" (if that even means anything) way to provide government revenue. Of course it's pretty much to late for that.

 

[Thrilla]

paying your bills is not theft. Our taxes are our government bills, pretty much like our power bills, our insurance bills, our food bills, etc.

well, except for the part about those other bills being voluntary agreements and taxes being inescapable mandatory duties... you're kinda correct.

 

[Amanda1858]

We never really own anything in life. We just pay a rent for a product for whatever period of time we control that product. Ya can't take it with ya when your dead.

Anyhow, I kinda like the idea that the government should own all land, since God (mother nature, science, whatever) gave it to all of mankind. Then we just rent land from the government, with the price of the rent more or less reflecting the economic value of the land. That might be the most "fair" (if that even means anything) way to provide government revenue. Of course it's pretty much to late for that.

Maybe you are right, Imagep. I work with people who come from India and they always talk about how different their tax system is from others. They pay very little income tax and no property taxes over in India. It sure sounds nice.

 

[Your Star]

Comparing taxation to theft is just ridiculous. We are not just individuals, we are a nation of people and that comes with certain rights and responsibilities; one of which is to pay taxes.

 

[Papa bull]

Comparing taxation to theft is just ridiculous. We are not just individuals, we are a nation of people and that comes with certain rights and responsibilities; one of which is to pay taxes.

When it comes to income tax, that is a responsibility half the country doesn't shoulder. Not surprisingly, that half is the half that thinks it's all good that the taxes are seized from OTHER people. Just shut up and pay so I can get my freestuff from the government.

 

[Your Star]

When it comes to income tax, that is a responsibility half the country doesn't shoulder. Not surprisingly, that half is the half that thinks it's all good that the taxes are seized from OTHER people. Just shut up and pay so I can get my freestuff from the government.

Your character assassination of not only the poor, but people who disagree with you is just juvenile.

 

[Papa bull]

Your character assassination of not only the poor, but people who disagree with you is just juvenile.

What part of that was false? You say paying taxes is a responsibility but half the country doesn't shoulder it. It's always easy to demand the government take more of OTHER people's money. Especially of its for government services you want but you don't want to pay for.

 

[Your Star]

What part of that was false? You say paying taxes is a responsibility but half the country doesn't shoulder it. It's always easy to demand the government take more of OTHER people's money. Especially of its for government services you want but you don't want to pay for.

First off, it is a responsibility EVERYONE takes on. The income tax is just one tax. You're simplifying things so that your childish argument looks better than it actually is.