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Is physical assault justified if you're being followed?[W:263]

Is physical assault justified if you're being followed? (Public poll)


  • Total voters
    52
So you are saying the fact that Zimmerman didn't get any licks in is evidence he didn't nothing to instigate?

No, I'm saying that a totally one-sided fight, no licks and not even a touch to mark the clothing or skin, not even a strong grab, scratch or kick, and without any physical evidence regarding clothing to suggest any defense by one party, is probably a surprise attack.

Further, the time evidence makes it clear that M was not at the sidewalk intersection (thus, must have been beyond it) when Z first passed the intersection while still on the phone with NEN.
 
Right. And you don't lose your right to self defence when you are being followed home. Moot.

One loses the right to self defense when one attacks someone, at least until one retreats or makes every effort to do so.
 
No, I'm saying that a totally one-sided fight, no licks and not even a touch to mark the clothing or skin, not even a strong grab, scratch or kick, and without any physical evidence regarding clothing to suggest any defense by one party, is probably a surprise attack.

Lol, what kind of evidence would a strong grab or contact on Trayvons clothing leave? What evidence would a verbal threat or action leave? You're making an assumption on the start, based on the end.

Further, the time evidence makes it clear that M was not at the sidewalk intersection (thus, must have been beyond it) when Z first passed the intersection while still on the phone with NEN.

Huh? The time evidence makes it clear that Trayvon ran and Zimmerman exited his vehicle to follow, and lost sight of him. Then it suggests that eventually they ended up where they were found. I find it not only plausible but likely that Zimmerman omitted evidence about the encounter and ensuing melee so he would stay out of jail. I know I would.
 
One loses the right to self defense when one attacks someone, at least until one retreats or makes every effort to do so.

To me this sounds like you are talking about Trayvon. He seemed to make every effort to escape Zimmerman, hiding, running, attempting to talk to. etc
 
To me this sounds like you are talking about Trayvon. He seemed to make every effort to escape Zimmerman, hiding, running, attempting to talk to. etc

HOW do you know this? You're just making up your own facts now. :roll: YOU have no idea what Trayvon did.
 
HOW do you know this? You're just making up your own facts now. :roll: YOU have no idea what Trayvon did.

No, it's a matter of record that Trayvon hid in a doorway, and according to Zimmerman he ran. Trayvon also approached him and asked him why he was following him and Zimmerman lied and said he wasn't (and continued to follow him). Read the transcripts. It's not disputed. To me it seems like Trayvon was doing what he could to evade Zimmerman. Keep in mind that Trayvon was accused of nothing at this point, and Zimmerman had incorrectly identified him as a criminal.
 
No, it's a matter of record that Trayvon hid in a doorway, and according to Zimmerman he ran. Trayvon also approached him and asked him why he was following him and Zimmerman lied and said he wasn't (and continued to follow him). Read the transcripts. It's not disputed. To me it seems like Trayvon was doing what he could to evade Zimmerman. Keep in mind that Trayvon was accused of nothing at this point, and Zimmerman had incorrectly identified him as a criminal.

Provide me with a link and I will.
 
Be more specific please.

Provide me with the evidence to support your claims by way of a link to the information. I'm working right now and don't have time to search the internet.
 
If someone confronted me and flashed a gun up close with the look of using it I might attack believing it's my last chance to preserve my life. Depends on body language, what is said and any provocative movements.
 
If there was evidence that Trayvon was struck, it still wouldn't suggest who started the fight.

A completely, totally, physical evidence of all sort, one-sided fight is most assuredly a surprise attack. With the time and phone evidence of Z having no encounter at the intersection when first arriving there, we must conclude that M had moved past the intersection and had plenty of time to get home. Combined with M's lack of calling the police to corroborate his fear, we can only conclude - according to the physical evidence - that Z was attacked unexpectedly.
 
I understand what a link is, which claim are you talking about?

For all of these claims.


No, it's a matter of record that Trayvon hid in a doorway, and according to Zimmerman he ran. Trayvon also approached him and asked him why he was following him and Zimmerman lied and said he wasn't (and continued to follow him). Read the transcripts. It's not disputed. To me it seems like Trayvon was doing what he could to evade Zimmerman. Keep in mind that Trayvon was accused of nothing at this point, and Zimmerman had incorrectly identified him as a criminal.
 
There's nothing wrong with checking out a 6 foot male stranger in ones community. Doing so in no way eliminates ones right to self defense.

What the hell are you talking about - more with your 6 foot male infatuation?
 
What the hell are you talking about - more with your 6 foot male infatuation?

It's not like someone was following a female in a parking lot downtown late at night. Someone was following a full-grown male, whom they'd never seen before, in their neighborhood, in order to see what he was up to.

I should note: referring to checking out a (6 foot male) stranger in ones neighborhood as "stalking" is belittling legitimate stalking.
 
A 6 foot male visiting a community should not be surprised when he is checked out by a neighbor. Many people in my community will check out or even follow a stranger to see what they are up to. There is nothing wrong with that. It in no way justifies an attack no removes their right to self defense.

Again with your 6 foot tall male preoccupation. Seriously...it is odd.


Again, Zim just didn't "check him out". He followed him in a car then got out on foot and followed "the suspect". That is bordering on stalking.

Even though I never thought he would have been convicted for murder 2, I think he is paying for his own stupid behavior. He will pay for the rest of his life.
 
Again with your 6 foot tall male preoccupation. Seriously...it is odd.


Again, Zim just didn't "check him out". He followed him in a car then got out on foot and followed "the suspect". That is bordering on stalking.

Even though I never thought he would have been convicted for murder 2, I think he is paying for his own stupid behavior. He will pay for the rest of his life.


Following a 6 foot male stranger in ones neighborhood to see what he is up to is not stalking and does not in any way remove ones right to self defense. Have some respect for the victims of that crime, stop belittling it.
 
For all of these claims.

On the 911 tape Zimmerman says that Trayvon was looking at him, which is logical for somebody to do when they are being followed - in fact all of Trayvons so-called 'weird behavior' could be attributed to how somebody might act if somebody was following them from a vehicle. Zimmerman also says Trayvon approached his car, my assumption that this was an attempt at communication. Zimmerman also says he ran away after that point, I believe him. And since it's clear that Trayvon didn't get far, I assume left the road for the purpose of evading Zimmerman. As a response to this evasion, Zimmerman left his car and didn't return when he said he did (it's not believable that he left the road, coincidentally heading in the same direction as Trayvon, simply looking for an address) and we don't know what happened after that, and before Trayvon ended up on top.

Just read the wikipedia page or the court transcripts about the shooting and you can find all of this out. I'm not sure what you're asking me.
 
Following a 6 foot male stranger in ones neighborhood to see what he is up to is not stalking and does not in any way remove ones right to self defense. Have some respect for the victims of that crime, stop belittling it.

Why do you keep saying 6 foot male stranger? If he followed him because he was a 6 foot male (he also was aware he was black) then that amount to profiling and he was interfering with Trayvons civil right to freedom of movement. If you follow somebody, you better have a reason other than how he looks or you might end up shooting an innocent person.
 
Why do you keep saying 6 foot male stranger?

Referring to following a 6 foot male stranger in ones own neighborhood at 7pm to ascertain his intentions as stalking is belittling the crime and the suffering of legitimate stalking victims, and year2late likes it.
 
On the 911 tape Zimmerman says that Trayvon was looking at him, which is logical for somebody to do when they are being followed - in fact all of Trayvons so-called 'weird behavior' could be attributed to how somebody might act if somebody was following them from a vehicle. Zimmerman also says Trayvon approached his car, my assumption that this was an attempt at communication. Zimmerman also says he ran away after that point, I believe him. And since it's clear that Trayvon didn't get far, I assume left the road for the purpose of evading Zimmerman. As a response to this evasion, Zimmerman left his car and didn't return when he said he did (it's not believable that he left the road, coincidentally heading in the same direction as Trayvon, simply looking for an address) and we don't know what happened after that, and before Trayvon ended up on top.

Just read the wikipedia page or the court transcripts about the shooting and you can find all of this out. I'm not sure what you're asking me.

Well here is what I found. So where are you getting these extra details of your's, such "hiding in a doorway?" Sounds like you're embellishing.

Zimmerman said he was driving to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon Martin walking through the neighborhood. Zimmerman's father said that, while his son was not on duty that night as Neighborhood Watch captain, there had been many break-ins and he thought it suspicious that someone he didn't recognize was walking behind the town homes instead of on the street or the sidewalk. Zimmerman therefore called a non-emergency police line to report Martin's behavior and summon police.[168][169] During the call, Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was "coming to check me out."[74] A source to the Orlando Sentinel said in May that Zimmerman told investigators that at one point Martin circled his vehicle,[Note 7] and he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation.[165][170]

After telling the police dispatcher that Martin "ran",[171] Zimmerman left his vehicle to determine his location and ascertain in which direction Martin had fled.[165][172] The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman was following Martin, and Zimmerman replied "Yeah." Then the dispatcher said, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replied with "OK" and stated that Martin got away.[171] After a discussion about where Zimmerman would meet police, the call ended, and Zimmerman told investigators he was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him from his left rear and confronted him.[165][166] According to Zimmerman, Martin then punched him in the face, knocking him down, and began beating his head against the sidewalk.[165][166] Zimmerman said he called out for help while being beaten, and at one point Martin covered his mouth to muffle the screams.[165][166] According to Zimmerman's father, during the struggle while Martin was on top of Zimmerman, Martin saw the gun his son was carrying and said something to the effect of "You're gonna die now" or "You're gonna die tonight" and continued to beat Zimmerman.[164] Zimmerman and Martin struggled over the gun, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest at close range, in self-defense.[165][166][167][Note 8]

On June 21, 2012, Zimmerman's attorneys released audiotapes of several interviews he had with police shortly after the shooting. Also included were Zimmerman's written statement of February 26, 2012, and video recordings of his reenactment of the incident and a voice stress test that he passed.[159][161][173][174][175]

In the interviews, Zimmerman says he took note of Martin because he was near a home that he had previously called police about. He also said "he was just walking casually, not like he was trying to get out of the rain," and he felt "something was off" about Martin.[170]
 
Referring to following a 6 foot male stranger in ones own neighborhood at 7pm to ascertain his intentions as stalking is belittling the crime and the suffering of legitimate stalking victims, and year2late likes it.

He stalked him, by the strict definition of the word. It is clear that Trayvon didn't desire Zimmermans attention. And Zimmermans contention that he was 'simply observing' Trayvon is invalid, as Trayvons actions were obviously a direct result of being stalked.

Referring to him over and over and over again as a 6 foot male stranger implies that any 6 foot male deserves to be followed, and should act normally in response.

Anyways, I'm bored of hearing and saying the same thing over and over again. Thank you for the discourse.
 
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