Is it ok for Dr's to lie to patients to prevent an abortion?

[joko104]

If a doctor believed a woman wasn't fit or prepared to have a child, is it OK for the doctor to falsely tell her that her healthy fetus is instead so defective it cannot survive and if she doesn't abort promptly it will endanger her life - only after the woman learning all that was a lie and the fetus was perfectly fine? Should that be protected against a lawsuit too?

What if the doctor's lie leads to an abortion that otherwise would not have happened? Is the doctor also protected?

PLEASE LIST ALL THE LIES YOU THINK A DOCTOR CAN TELL PATIENTS HERE:

 

[MaggieD]

This is from the AP...sheesh..


"The Arizona Senate has approved a bill that would shield doctors and others from so-called “wrongful birth” lawsuits.

Those are lawsuits that can arise if physicians don’t inform pregnant women of prenatal problems that could lead to the decision to have an abortion.

The Senate’s 20-9 vote Tuesday sends the bill to the state House.

The bill’s sponsor is Republican Nancy Barto of Phoenix. She says allowing the medical malpractice lawsuits endorses the idea that if a child is born with a disability, someone is to blame.

Barto said the bill will still allow “true malpractice suits” to proceed.

If the bill becomes law, Arizona would join nine states barring both “wrongful life” and “wrongful birth” lawsuits.

Opponents of the bill say it’s unnecessary and would infringe on reproductive rights.

Good God. Where does it say in there that a doctor can lie??? These wrong birth suits are being brought against doctors simply because a child is born imperfect. Doctors can't lie. Doctors can't fail to tell you something they know. Doctors can't give you tests and then not give you the results.

Read, for heaven's sake. And not between the lines!

 

[AGENT J]

I think it is so sad that you are fervently anti-life that would violated the sanctity of life by thinking it should be already for a mother to kill her child just because that child in handicap.

Yeah its hard to imagine a mother not wanting to give birth to a child that will never live a normal life, will face a shortened life, will face a life time of suffering or pain emotional distress. Or may not be able to afford even normal life for handicap kids so her child wouldnt even live as good as them or may not have the support/family or friends to take on such a task.

Stupid mother thinking ahead and caring about what type of life the child could have, man how could people be so irrational and uncaring.

<end sarcasm> LOL

 

[JasonI]

Good God. Where does it say in there that a doctor can lie??? These wrong birth suits are being brought against doctors simply because a child is born imperfect. Doctors can't lie. Doctors can't fail to tell you something they know. Doctors can't give you tests and then not give you the results.

Read, for heaven's sake. And not between the lines!

Seriously? You have to use your brain a little here...Do you not think that at some point during a woman's pregnancy she asks her Dr how the baby is doing? After the sonogram is done, do you not think the woman would ask how everything looked? If the Dr, and I assume we are all acknowledging that the Dr is capable and qualified to read a sonogram or do tests and checkups, doesn't tell the woman there is anything wrong with the baby because he may get a gut feeling if he tells her she might abort the baby, then he is LYING to her...withholding that info is LYING to her...

how can you not comprehend this?

 

[joko104]

Yeah its hard to imagine a mother not wanting to give birth to a child that will never live a normal life, will face a shortened life, will face a life time of suffering or pain emotional distress. Or may not be able to afford even normal life for handicap kids so her child wouldnt even live as good as them or may not have the support/family or friends to take on such a task.

Stupid mother thinking ahead and caring about what type of life the child could have, man how could people be so irrational and uncaring.

<end sarcasm> LOL

With Down Syndrome children, it is a bit different. You have to be a parent of that child - who remains of child mentality but usually particularly physically large and strong - for 5 decades or more - meaning basically all of your life, every day, every night.

Given human nature and already how many rotten parents there are for perfectly fine children, I would expect most to be abandoned quickly or otherwise greatly neglected or abused.

 

[MaggieD]

Seriously? You have to use your brain a little here...Do you not think that at some point during a woman's pregnancy she asks her Dr how the baby is doing? After the sonogram is done, do you not think the woman would ask how everything looked? If the Dr, and I assume we are all acknowledging that the Dr is capable and qualified to read a sonogram or do tests and checkups, doesn't tell the woman there is anything wrong with the baby because he may get a gut feeling if he tells her she might abort the baby, then he is LYING to her...withholding that info is LYING to her...

how can you not comprehend this?

Seriously. You are so determined to read some "war against women" into this legislation, you can't see the forest for the trees.

If a doctor misreads a sonogram, he's screwed. If he misreads a test, he's screwed. If he gives wrong information, he's screwed. But he's NOT screwed simply because a child is born with problems. There has to be some wrongdoing or negligence...not simply a "wrongful birth."

Your way of looking at it makes absolutely no sense at all. A doctor can do an amniocentesis test and not tell the parents the child has Down's Syndrome??? Are you freakin' kidding me??

 

[AGENT J]

With Down Syndrome children, it is a bit different. You have to be a parent of that child - who remains of child mentality but usually particularly physically large and strong - for 5 decades or more - meaning basically all of your life, every day, every night.

Given human nature and already how many rotten parents there are for perfectly fine children, I would expect most to be abandoned quickly or otherwise greatly neglected or abused.

well thats my point, if I had a choice I would never bring a child in to this world who is going to have a life time of suffering, id never forgive myself.

 

[jamesrage]

That's not even the issue, is it? It is whether Doctors and other health professions may deliberately lie to women for they own ideological agenda.There is NOTHING of the law that has anything to do with reducing abortion - exactly nothing. In fact, I believe it would cause them to increase. Maybe you should pick another thread to repeat for the 500th time your calling women murderers.

Learn to read.
Arizona Senate approves lying to women to prevent abortions | The Raw Story

The Arizona Senate on Tuesday approved a bill that would allow doctors withhold information about prenatal problems if it could make the decision to have an abortion more likely.

 

[MaggieD]

Learn to read.

Arizona Senate approves lying to women to prevent abortions | The Raw Story

The Arizona Senate on Tuesday approved a bill that would allow doctors withhold information about prenatal problems if it could make the decision to have an abortion more likely.

I agree, James. You should. First of all, consider the source. Second, NOWHERE in that article, other than in the headline does it say "Doctors can lie."

Seriously. You are so determined to read some "war against women" into this legislation, you can't see the forest for the trees.

If a doctor misreads a sonogram, he's screwed. If he misreads a test, he's screwed. If he gives wrong information, he's screwed. But he's NOT screwed simply because a child is born with problems. There has to be some wrongdoing or negligence...not simply a "wrongful birth."

Your way of looking at it makes absolutely no sense at all. A doctor can do an amniocentesis test and not tell the parents the child has Down's Syndrome??? Are you freakin' kidding me??

 

[JasonI]

Seriously. You are so determined to read some "war against women" into this legislation, you can't see the forest for the trees.

If a doctor misreads a sonogram, he's screwed. If he misreads a test, he's screwed. If he gives wrong information, he's screwed. But he's NOT screwed simply because a child is born with problems. There has to be some wrongdoing or negligence...not simply a "wrongful birth."

Your way of looking at it makes absolutely no sense at all. A doctor can do an amniocentesis test and not tell the parents the child has Down's Syndrome??? Are you freakin' kidding me??

The law was created to shield the dr from "wrongful death" lawsuits...which include the dr NOT telling the parents the kid has Down's Syndrome...that is lying!

 

[Fiddytree]

With Down Syndrome children, it is a bit different. You have to be a parent of that child - who remains of child mentality but usually particularly physically large and strong - for 5 decades or more - meaning basically all of your life, every day, every night.

Given human nature and already how many rotten parents there are for perfectly fine children, I would expect most to be abandoned quickly or otherwise greatly neglected or abused.

I would be careful in underestimating the mental faculties of those with Down Syndrome.

 

[AGENT J]

I agree, James. You should. First of all, consider the source. Second, NOWHERE in that article, other than in the headline does it say "Doctors can lie."

so how does that work in reality.
I have the test done, the results come back as positive for something that may make me consider an abortion.
How does the doctor go about "withholding"

not return my phone calls
not tell me about the test

what if I ask him, "what were the results of the test"

then what?

im just trying to figure out what you call a lie?

if you asked your mate, have cheated on me? and they say? "why do you ask? you think im out there banging 500 girls a week or something? im not doing that, dont be silly." (but the truth is they are cheating and banging one girl a week)

technically they didnt "LIE"

so where is the line?

if I get the test done, its positive, and then ask the doctor " how the test go is there any concerns I should have about my baby" and he answers "only the concerns that can happen with all babies, if I was you I wouldnt worry"

technically he didnt "lie"

do you think this is ok? would you not classify it as lying?

at the very least its sleezy dishonesty

 

[Peter King]

The question is can a state outlaw recoveries in civil suits and generally the federal courts have ruled they can. If so, there is no place to sue. The federal court won't hear it and it is the state's own law. So unless the STATE supreme court of that state ruled against their own state's law, there's not much can be done.

Many people don't realize that in itself laws are not about "justice." There is no guarantee in the Constitution for "just" laws. Rather, the only "justice" if if the law is universally applied. So if the law was limited to only white people, then there is a federal case. Otherwise likely not. Just because a law is really rotten and unjust doesn't make it unconstitutional.

The only "federal" case I could see would be a claim that it is discriminatory against women in that the law doesn't allow exemption for doctors to lie to or misinform men about their sexuality and own body - thus it is gender discrimination. It also could be argued it is a circumvention of Roe V Wade, though that a hard case to win.

Whatever it may be, I think this plan to not allow lying doctors to be sued is almost criminally insane and the lawmakers who voted for it deserve to get booted out at the next election for pure incompetence, betrayal of the voters of that state and bowing to the power of the ant-abortion extremists and their plot to deny women what they are legally entitled too, the choice to decide wether or not to have a child.

 

[JayDubya]

Most “people who are supposedly for ‘small government’” are not anarchists. The vast majority of us do believe and recognize that there are certain functions, duties, and responsibilities that must be born by government. And most of us believe that enacting and enforcing laws which prohibit one person from unjustly taking the life of another fall solidly under these duties and responsibilities.

Indeed.

Hell, I'm a libertarian. Guess what, I support laws against aggressive homicide. I also believe in equality, so that means ALL aggressive homicide - no human's life is worth more than another. We all have an unalienable right to life.

 

[joko104]

Seriously. You are so determined to read some "war against women" into this legislation, you can't see the forest for the trees.

If a doctor misreads a sonogram, he's screwed. If he misreads a test, he's screwed. If he gives wrong information, he's screwed. But he's NOT screwed simply because a child is born with problems. There has to be some wrongdoing or negligence...not simply a "wrongful birth."

Your way of looking at it makes absolutely no sense at all. A doctor can do an amniocentesis test and not tell the parents the child has Down's Syndrome??? Are you freakin' kidding me??

That is what happened and it why this legislation was proposed.

 

[MaggieD]

so how does that work in reality.
I have the test done, the results come back as positive for something that may make me consider an abortion.
How does the doctor go about "withholding"

not return my phone calls
not tell me about the test

what if I ask him, "what were the results of the test"

then what?

im just trying to figure out what you call a lie?

if you asked your mate, have cheated on me? and they say? "why do you ask? you think im out there banging 500 girls a week or something? im not doing that, dont be silly." (but the truth is they are cheating and banging one girl a week)

technically they didnt "LIE"

so where is the line?

if I get the test done, its positive, and then ask the doctor " how the test go is there any concerns I should have about my baby" and he answers "only the concerns that can happen with all babies, if I was you I wouldnt worry"

technically he didnt "lie"

do you think this is ok? would you not classify it as lying?

at the very least its sleezy dishonesty

In the scenerio you've painted, the doctor would be guilty of malpractice. There is nothing in the proposed legislation that removes malpractice as causation.

 

[JayDubya]

Actually, the initial article is ridiculous with a title that does not match the story at all...

 

[MaggieD]

The law was created to shield the dr from "wrongful death" lawsuits...which include the dr NOT telling the parents the kid has Down's Syndrome...that is lying!

Quote me that, Jason. (re Down's) You are inferring your own interpretation into this article. Quote it from a reliable source. Mainstream isn't even covering this.

 

[AGENT J]

Whatever it may be, I think this plan to not allow lying doctors to be sued is almost criminally insane and the lawmakers who voted for it deserve to get booted out at the next election for pure incompetence, betrayal of the voters of that state and bowing to the power of the ant-abortion extremists and their plot to deny women what they are legally entitled too, the choice to decide wether or not to have a child.

criminally insane is being nice
its giving the doctors the ability to be dictators and to have ownership over your life freedoms rights and liberties all which the doctor violate by being dishonest with you

its criminal anarchy and totally asinine

 

[joko104]

I would be careful in underestimating the mental faculties of those with Down Syndrome.

IQ isn't the only measure of intellegence nor the measure of a person. However:


." The average IQ of children with Down syndrome is around 50, compared to normal children with an IQ of 100. A small number have a severe to high degree of intellectual disability."
Most (adult) individuals with Down syndrome have intellectual disability in the mild (IQ 50–70) to moderate (IQ 35–50) range."

Down syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You welcomed to find better stats if you think those are inaccurate.

 

[Peter King]

I think it is so sad that you are fervently anti-life that would violated the sanctity of life by thinking it should be already for a mother to kill her child just because that child in handicap.

Nobody is anti-life, except ofcourse for those who advocate the death penalty but that is another discussion (even though I would guess that a lot of these anti-abortion extremists do support the death penalty).

Being pro-choice means you support the right of a women to decide what happens in her body (within reason naturally) when it comes to deciding wether she wants to carry a child or not.

It is not up to right wing (and I suppose a few left wing) extremists to decide for these women what she is and isn't allowed to do.

Roe v. Wade gives her a choice and though all these anti-choice extremists have been waging on war women's choice (with a fair bit of violence, intimidation and other foul doings) ever since, it is still legal and if you don't like it, I couldn't give a :censored

 

[JasonI]

Quote me that, Jason. (re Down's) You are inferring your own interpretation into this article. Quote it from a reliable source. Mainstream isn't even covering this.

This is from the AP...sheesh..(is the AP not a reliable source? I posted this in #50)


"The Arizona Senate has approved a bill that would shield doctors and others from so-called “wrongful birth” lawsuits.

Those are lawsuits that can arise if physicians don’t inform pregnant women of prenatal problems that could lead to the decision to have an abortion.

 

[digsbe]

It's wrong for them to lie, but it's not wrong for them to do everything within their legal right to protect a human right. As a future doctor of pharmacy I will not dispense abortifacient drugs for the purpose of killing another human. It's not ok to lie and compromise patient health.

 

[AGENT J]

In the scenerio you've painted, the doctor would be guilty of malpractice. There is nothing in the proposed legislation that removes malpractice as causation.

you didnt answer the question

and

why is my example malpractice but withholding information isnt? I believe that you are only giving me your OPINION and thats the issue. I may even agree with you but the point is how do we decided whos OPINION matters most.

Im not in favor of ANYTHING that would allow doctors to withhold information from thier patients.

Withholding any info from me violates my rights and freedoms

 

[joko104]

It's wrong for them to lie, but it's not wrong for them to do everything within their legal right to protect a human right. As a future doctor of pharmacy I will not dispense abortifacient drugs for the purpose of killing another human. It's not ok to lie and compromise patient health.

Such as?...