Is Israel a Rogue State ?

[Leftist Protozoa]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not sure that doesn't add up to you being a Centrist or something like that; but it's obviously your call. I'm just sayin.

 

[Hatuey]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not sure that doesn't add up to you being a Centrist or something like that; but it's obviously your call. I'm just sayin.

Centrist it is then. Always thought I was more on the liberal side of things. Guess you can't have a pro-military family and be liberal anymore.

 

[Leftist Protozoa]

Guess you can't have a pro-military family and be liberal anymore.

I never said that. Heck, my wife and I combine for over 30 years of military service. I'm here to tell you that the whole "you can't support the soldier, while not supporting the soldier's mission" is a major load of dung. Conservatives love to latch on to that hawkish crap, while at the same time bending the soldiers over a rail.

What do they care... most of the soldiers are poor inner city kids. You don't find many privates that look like the Bush twins. Hmmm wonder why?

 

[Joby]

Man, this guy's like aqua's far-left euro twin.

 

[Joby]

Anyway, I don't agree with the US giving billions in military aid to Israel, nor do I agree with giving billions to the Saudis (though at least they pay for a lot of it), nor the Egyptians, nor Pervez Musharraf, nor Saddam Hussein, nor the Shah.

The backlash from all these dictatorships is going to be pretty bad, in my opinion. In our cold-war race to get all the oil, we made some pretty short-sighted and, ultimately, costly decisions.

While I don't agree with giving gobs of the latest military hardware free of charge to Israel, I do believe that if we should try to end this conflict. Instead of military aid, let's just give all of the Palstinians a job doing something for $10 a day. Unfortunately, the 'war camp' has learned how to benefit and rule from the status quo, and just seems to want to keep going.

The way this will be solved is (this is very simplistic...more like guidelines) will be relatively close to the way the British stabilized Belfast. Give the pissed off minority a.) economic opportunity b.) educational opportities, and c.)attempt to end the humiliation involved. Then again, it took 40 years for the towers to come down and disarmament to happen there...

 

[Dougie_Vipond]

Anyway, I don't agree with the US giving billions in military aid to Israel, nor do I agree with giving billions to the Saudis (though at least they pay for a lot of it), nor the Egyptians, nor Pervez Musharraf, nor Saddam Hussein, nor the Shah.

The backlash from all these dictatorships is going to be pretty bad, in my opinion. In our cold-war race to get all the oil, we made some pretty short-sighted and, ultimately, costly decisions.

While I don't agree with giving gobs of the latest military hardware free of charge to Israel, I do believe that if we should try to end this conflict. Instead of military aid, let's just give all of the Palstinians a job doing something for $10 a day. Unfortunately, the 'war camp' has learned how to benefit and rule from the status quo, and just seems to want to keep going.

The way this will be solved is (this is very simplistic...more like guidelines) will be relatively close to the way the British stabilized Belfast. Give the pissed off minority a.) economic opportunity b.) educational opportities, and c.)attempt to end the humiliation involved. Then again, it took 40 years for the towers to come down and disarmament to happen there...

last point is true mate. it took 40 years because the british werent serious. when they eventually were, it worked. but it really worked because the british declered they and irish have no special interest in the area. it pissed off extremists on their own side but placated the enemny, the irish gov did the same. the trouble with isreal palestinans is that both sides, except probly the plo nowadays, actually have an interest in in the area and prove it everyday.

 

[Ikari]

I probably wouldn't go as far as to claim Israel to be a rouge state, though they aren't a very nice state either. I think that both sides in this conflict continually do things only to spur the other side to react and that Israel is just as guilty of doing so. Though I don't think Israel is trying to upset anything on a global scale, they do provoke and are provoked. In the end, I think one of the problems is our blind support and I would rather not give Israel a dime or any form of military equipment. We can trade and have friendly relations, but I don't need to be funding the mess which is happening their...that's their problem and they're gonna have to deal with it. If they don't want it to continue, they may have to play the role of bigger man and quit being a bunch of *******s.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

If they don't want it to continue, they may have to play the role of bigger man and quit being a bunch of *******s.

Not so easy to do when playing this role could get you killed and/or eliminated.

 

[Ikari]

The bigger man is rarely the easier, safer road.

 

[Zyphlin]

Israel can be criticized on many behalfs:

-Failure to obey 67 UN resolutions
-Deportation and displacement of more than 5 million arabs and armenians
-Waging wars of aggression against Lebanon
-Terror tactics and collective punishment against civilian populations
-Keeping millions of palestinians in concentration camps
-Harboring race laws and effectively enacting Apartheid (according to Bishop Desmond Tutu)
-Disrespect for elected palestinian leaders. Instead they prefer to "negociate" with the puppet governement they created themselves.

Israel's proponents will argue that
-the jews are entitled a homeland because they cannot integrate into western societies
-Palestine has been given to them by their god, and hence the country is theirs by biblical law
-Arabism is inferior to the originally slavic culture of most jews, hence jews have the natural right to kill and displace arabs


In view and balance of these arguments, do YOU think that Israel is a rogue state ?

Could we like...have a Poll to ask that Hundel doesn't make anymore polls until he learns how to actually put forth useful options that allow people to enter an answer on either side of an issue and not horribly loaded pointless poll answers that will allow him to claim ignorant and biased positions no matter what people vote thus taking up useful debate space and brain power?

 

[WI Crippler]

Could we like...have a Poll to ask that Hundel doesn't make anymore polls until he learns how to actually put forth useful options that allow people to enter an answer on either side of an issue and not horribly loaded pointless poll answers that will allow him to claim ignorant and biased positions no matter what people vote thus taking up useful debate space and brain power?

We'd have to eliminate 60% of all the polls, and all of aquapubs.

 

[MSgt]

The US has a long history of supporting horrible countries for strategic reasons. This is obviously not somthing to encourage, but oil truly is the lifeblood of our civilization, and so I think it's worth it.

I'd much rather have the Iranians as our ally then the Israelis. The Iranians coudl help us root out Sunni terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda because as Shiites they already have a hostile predispostion towards those groups.

Pay close to attention to what you stated.

The Soviet Union was ruthless towards Muslims and denied them their religion in their occupied lands in the Bloc, especially "Persians." They would later arm the Israelis because they opposed the British occupation. Recognbizing their mistake of thinking that the British EMpire would be the emerging power after WWII, they immediately armed the Arabs to fight Israel, which drew us in to support Israel. This would be the Cold War standoff in the Middle East.

However, America chose to be-friend the Arabs in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the Persians in Iran all the while being strong for our ally Israel. We have been the only nation that has tried so hard to insist that Palestinians embrace independance and co-exist against our Arab "friend's" wishes. We have been the only ones to not play one against the other while holding the violence back.

We are hated by all sides involved because we have been friendly to all and not chosen to destroy one for the other. The Arabs and the Persians are even hateful towards us because we tried to include both tribes in our fold. To choose one over the other, whether we speak of Muslim tribes or Muslim vs. Jew, would put us in the same light as the Soviets.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

The bigger man is rarely the easier, safer road.

Survival is, however, an innate trait, often overriding being the bigger man. My mom used to tell of an anecdote about a guy who crossed the street, observing all laws, and having the right of way...and being killed by a car going though a stop sign. He was right...and was dead. Being better than the other guy isn't always enough.

 

[Ikari]

So sometimes you have to stoop to their own level even if it means the betrayal of your morality to do so? In the end Israel can do as it thinks is necessary to survive, but they should do it without my money. I don't see them as being better than the other guy in this conflict, the only reason that perception is there is because of the West's involvment in getting Israel recognized. Other than that, they do pretty much the same things which are done to them and it's not something which is ever going to end up with peace.

 

[Hundebolg]

Could we like...have a Poll to ask that Hundel doesn't make anymore polls until he learns how to actually put forth useful options that allow people to enter an answer on either side of an issue and not horribly loaded pointless poll answers that will allow him to claim ignorant and biased positions no matter what people vote thus taking up useful debate space and brain power?

Considering the horrific nature of the israeli regime and the fanaticism and reality-denial of it's supporters, i think the poll options are absolutely apropriate. Either you acknowledge that israel is off their legal borders and that the deportations are illegal (UN position since 1947), or you support the opinion that israeli borders are whereever israel chooses them to be, in which case the UN resolutions calling for retreat and end of deportations are biased against israel's natural rights of expansion, monopolization of resources, and racial purity.

There is in fact little space for in-between argumentation considering israel slaughters thousand 'enemy' civilians each year.

 

[Hatuey]

There is in fact little space for in-between argumentation considering israel slaughters thousand 'enemy' civilians each year.

"thousands" every year? Source? I dare you to quote anything related to commondreams or info.

 

[Zyphlin]

There is in fact little space for in-between argumentation considering israel slaughters thousand 'enemy' civilians each year.

Only thousands? No crazy report saying that they've killed eleventy billion people like over in Iraq? Maybe you can make some unsubstantied claims of their weapons not working as intended and then never back it up.

When the options presented is either basically "Yes, their evil" or "No, I believe God literally chose them" or "No, because I think all the UN are racists" you're basically slanting your poll to be either "Agree with me or be a looney"

 

[MSgt]

...they're angry at our liberty and freedom?

I'm speechless.

Are you serious? Maybe they're angry that we support a country that bascially colonized a very sacred place in their region.

Why do the extremists hate us? It's not because they "hate our freedom". That's ludicrous. That's what Bush wants us to think.

They hate us because of the things we do, not the kind of people we are.

Israel is offensive to them. We support Isreal. We become offensive to them.

Bush lacks the ability to explain matters and expects Americans to actually read about international happenings on their own.

You might want to check out the writings of Sayyid Qutb. A lot of the sentiments that come from the lips of Islamic terrorists everywhere came from this man's accounts while visiting America in the 1950s. His writings happen to be a big part of the Muslim Brotherhood and the majority of Islamic terrorists are members of it. They do, indeed, hate us for our lifestyle, our women's rights, our social structures, and our religious freedoms. They hate us, because our lifestyle is an insult to "God." Religious monsters hate us because they know they have no chance of survival in a world like ours and they are reminded of this with every inch that our culture "infects" theirs. And the average Muslim hates us simply becuase they are told that they are supposed to. This was all established well before America took on the role of supporting Israel in 1957 and long before we mistakenly insisted that the Shah of Iran modernize too quickly for his religious population.

But, I'm a bit confused on how you can understand that this patch of dirt is a "sacred place" in their religion as if it matters and dismissive of the fact that it was a "sacred place" to Christians and Jews long before Muhammed supplied the Qu'ran. How is it that they are allowed this firm declaration of ownership in the first place by people in the West? Come to think of it, how is it that you can find the Dome of the Rock, a Muslim holy structure, in Israel still standing, but find no Christian, Jewish, or Buddhist structure in Muslim conquered territories? Surely, Israelis deserve some applause for their respect of Islam and Islam deserves a bit of critique for their lack of respect for everyone else? Did you know that it is forbidden to wear a cross in Saudi Arabia, but Muslims are free to worship as they please in Israel?

I would also submit to you that they hate us less for what we do and more for what we do not do. The most powerful nation in history has raced to the fray to free Asians and Europeans. It has left better nations behind when we left. In Africa, this powerful nation has given good will and even bled in order to feed the wretched. But, no Arab nation in the Middle East has ever seen the most powerful nation in history do a thing for them except for to support the stability of their expired governments at all costs. Oh sure, we helped Muslims in Kuwait, for which we aren't afforded credit, but we also paved the road back to Baghdad for Saddam as he went on to abuse Muslims.

Everyone of our allies has an enemy. Shall we turn our backs just to escape being hated by the third party? Shall we cut our support towards France because an Algerian Mulsim might decide to kill some Americans? And what of Muslims in Congo that hate the French? And how many times did the IRA in Ireland focus on America just because we supported Britian? Any? You might want to evaluate the situation in the Middle East and recognize that those that hate us are immature, desperate, full of hate and rage, biggoted and racist, scapegoating, and suffer because of what their own culture provides them. We have provided them no prescription. But our prescriptions upon our own society threatens their comfortable nooses around each other.

By the way....your gay right? Did you know that the only annual gay pride parade in the Middle East is held in Israel? The minute we opt to befriend the tyrant against a free nation, we will become everything we battled against since our birth.

 

[MSgt]

So sometimes you have to stoop to their own level even if it means the betrayal of your morality to do so?

Worked for America throughout the Cold War. And we are still shaking our bad habits off to this day. Is not our friendship with the House of Saud a betrayal of our morals?

But what is the situation here? Are we allies with Israelis against the Arabs? Or do we equally befriend Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan and offer treasure annually to the Palsestrinians who squander it? In all of this diplomacy, it is the Arab side that disconnects and instsists that one can't live with the other. We have not drawn sides and if we ever did, we would not be the America that we have always been if we chose against the free nation.

 

[Tashah]

Hundebolg posts from Germany. He is an agitator, provocateur, and propagandist. As such, his mainstay is garbage from highly biased sources such as informationclearinghouse, counterpunch, rense.com etc.

One glance at his "Poll" should tell you all you need to know. He well deserves all the opprobrium he attracts.

 

[MSgt]

Considering the horrific nature of the israeli regime and the fanaticism and reality-denial of it's supporters, i think the poll options are absolutely apropriate. Either you acknowledge that israel is off their legal borders and that the deportations are illegal (UN position since 1947), or you support the opinion that israeli borders are whereever israel chooses them to be, in which case the UN resolutions calling for retreat and end of deportations are biased against israel's natural rights of expansion, monopolization of resources, and racial purity.

Actually, Israeli borders are exactly where Arabs deemed them to be. They were the ones that gambled and lost. I believe Germany gambled once because it couldn't stomach unlike people in their midst too.

There is in fact little space for in-between argumentation considering israel slaughters thousand 'enemy' civilians each year.

Lies. And from a guy that has a Pinochio nose on the American President. Thousands a year is hardly the count. And no mention of the continual suicide bombers that come from "Palestine?" No mention of the hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths racked up by other Muslims per decade? Yet, Israelis are the monsters? How is it a celebrated stance to whine about a few Muslims that lost their lives in an Israeli shelling upon a military target, yet nothing is spoken about the hundreds of Muslim deaths in Sudan by other Muslims? Tens of thousands of Muslim deaths in Syria by other Muslims, yet the concern is for the handful of Muslims that died in an Israeli raid upon suspected militants? This is designed complacency. Germans seem to only care about a Muslim death when an Israeli pulls the trigger.

You are out of your league. And you can't duck me forever.

 

[Dougie_Vipond]

Actually, Israeli borders are exactly where Arabs deemed them to be. They were the ones that gambled and lost. I believe Germany gambled once because it couldn't stomach unlike people in their midst too.

i think you should wait til he makes a jibe against the us before u make one against germany. civility a must!

 

[MSgt]

i think you should wait til he makes a jibe against the us before u make one against germany. civility a must!

Merely a mentioning of nations that can't stomach unlike people and their results. And he has well offended the US plenty.

 

[Ikari]

Worked for America throughout the Cold War. And we are still shaking our bad habits off to this day. Is not our friendship with the House of Saud a betrayal of our morals?

Considering that's where most of the terrorists for 911 came from...yes it is. In fact, it is one of the bigger legitimizers of this war we have brewing in Iraq. I think we are looking well too much at the oil and thus when we say we're going for freedom of some poor country, those are just lies for the government to justify their expansion and growth of power over the American people. In the end, this betrayal of our moral code will cost us that which we hold dear...our liberty.

But what is the situation here? Are we allies with Israelis against the Arabs? Or do we equally befriend Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan and offer treasure annually to the Palsestrinians who squander it? In all of this diplomacy, it is the Arab side that disconnects and instsists that one can't live with the other. We have not drawn sides and if we ever did, we would not be the America that we have always been if we chose against the free nation.

Why do we have to be friends with Israel? As for the rest...well it's the same. We don't need to back one side here, we can help them reach peace but only if they want to reach peace. If all the sides are so enamored with fighting, there is little we can do to stop it. Don't use my money to fund it, that's all I demand out of my government (well I guess as it specifically relates to this case).

 

[Hundebolg]

Actually, Israeli borders are exactly where Arabs deemed them to be. They were the ones that gambled and lost.

Did the Kuwaiti's 'gamble and loose' when they cross-drilled into iraqi oil reserves and were subsequently defeated by the Iraqi forces ? If so, why did the UN intervene ? Does the narrative twist you can give to a story really matter in pure and hard terms of international law and human rights ?

Lies. And from a guy that has a Pinochio nose on the American President. Thousands a year is hardly the count.

Do your research yourself. I'm not responsible for your education.

And no mention of the continual suicide bombers that come from "Palestine?" No mention of the hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths racked up by other Muslims per decade? Yet, Israelis are the monsters? How is it a celebrated stance to whine about a few Muslims that lost their lives in an Israeli shelling upon a military target, yet nothing is spoken about the hundreds of Muslim deaths in Sudan by other Muslims? Tens of thousands of Muslim deaths in Syria by other Muslims, yet the concern is for the handful of Muslims that died in an Israeli raid upon suspected militants? This is designed complacency. Germans seem to only care about a Muslim death when an Israeli pulls the trigger.

Because i think that you are an active victim of military propaganda and deserve the courtesy of being legally considered a "child-soldier", i will see over the nationalist libel you adress at me. Sudan is certainly a despicable place to live in. I do think, like you, that it needs some form of modernization. But Syria? Syria is a modern state, civilized, and independent. That being said, advances towards human rights, economic developement and democracy would be greatly increased if the United States dropped it's purely colonialist approach towards middle-eastern countries. European countries understood that in the fifties and sixties already, but some strange historically ignorant and militaristic sect seems to have taken over the United States since then.