Is Israel a Rogue State ?

[new coup for you]

First of all, i'm completely certain that Israel attacked the Liberty on purpose because they knew we were spying on their activities and might possibly realy that back to the Egyptians.

Yes, Muslims are bad, very good. We all know that. However, they're not necessarily predisposed to hating us. And even if they are, that's only exacerbated by supporting Israel. Who would you rather have as friends, the people with a nasty little dessert the size of New Jersey good only for dates, or the people with the oil?

If Israel was a paragon of virtue I would support them despite it being a strategically poor choice. But they're not.

 

[MSgt]

Someday i'll understand why my entire parents generation has become so blindly obssessed with supporting Israel despite its detrimental effect to our country.

Actually, you can understand it now if you gave it an honest thought. The situation in the Middle East for almost every single Arab and Persian is the existence of Israel. Therefore, the situation as handed to the world, is a demand for support one way or the other. Your parent's generation knew this all too well, because they saw it every day throughout the Cold War as the Soviets tried to use Arabs to fight the West's allies. And your grandparent's generation saw this first hand.

Today's generation has their heads buried so far up their asses that they think that nothing outside our borders matters and that the wells will never dry up. No Arab or Persian in the Middle East can compare to the complacency that Americans celebrate. Today, our government is accused of "blindly" supporting Israel. The minute we become a country that turns its back on its allies is the minute we become every wretched nation that followed before us.

The only true democracy and free country in the Middle East deserves our protection. If you cheer for the Arab nations who oppress and brutalize their own people, then you may want to check your values. Life is hard enough without giving tyrants and religious monsters what they want.

 

[MSgt]

First of all, i'm completely certain that Israel attacked the Liberty on purpose because they knew we were spying on their activities and might possibly realy that back to the Egyptians.

Yes, Muslims are bad, very good. We all know that. However, they're not necessarily predisposed to hating us. And even if they are, that's only exacerbated by supporting Israel. Who would you rather have as friends, the people with a nasty little dessert the size of New Jersey good only for dates, or the people with the oil?

If Israel was a paragon of virtue I would support them despite it being a strategically poor choice. But they're not.

A paragon of virtue? Yet, you would willingly give your allegiance to those that own the oil for their virtue?

 

[new coup for you]

The US has a long history of supporting horrible countries for strategic reasons. This is obviously not somthing to encourage, but oil truly is the lifeblood of our civilization, and so I think it's worth it.

I'd much rather have the Iranians as our ally then the Israelis. The Iranians coudl help us root out Sunni terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda because as Shiites they already have a hostile predispostion towards those groups.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

First of all, i'm completely certain that Israel attacked the Liberty on purpose because they knew we were spying on their activities and might possibly realy that back to the Egyptians.

What you think is pretty irrelevant. Both the US and Israel conducted an investigation and concluded that it was an accident. Unless you have valid evidence to the contrary, your opinion is just that...an opinion, void of facts.

Yes, Muslims are bad, very good. We all know that. However, they're not necessarily predisposed to hating us. And even if they are, that's only exacerbated by supporting Israel. Who would you rather have as friends, the people with a nasty little dessert the size of New Jersey good only for dates, or the people with the oil?

And this is the crux of the matter. This is why the UN condemns Israel, but never Arab states for the same incidents. Fear of losing their precious oil. So, what you are saying is that we should support Arab states, even though they have created most of these problems, have attacked Israel repeatedly, and, some of which, would still destroy her, just because Israel has no oil for us. This is why many countries are against Israel. All the Palestinian crap is a smoke screen. They just want to suck the dicks of the Arabs so oil prices won't go up. Bunch of ****ing hypocrites.

If Israel was a paragon of virtue I would support them despite it being a strategically poor choice. But they're not.

No you wouldn't. Israel doesn't have much oil to sell.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

The US has a long history of supporting horrible countries for strategic reasons. This is obviously not somthing to encourage, but oil truly is the lifeblood of our civilization, and so I think it's worth it.

I'd much rather have the Iranians as our ally then the Israelis. The Iranians coudl help us root out Sunni terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda because as Shiites they already have a hostile predispostion towards those groups.

Sure, align yourself with anyone, no matter how horrible they are, as long as they have oil. As I said, the Palestinian issue is a smokescreen...and I feel bad for the Palestinians that they are being used as pawns in this obnoxious transaction. Detest Israel and you get oil, don't and you won't. This is the kind of pressure Arab countries place.

 

[new coup for you]

I never said we should support Arab states. What I said was that we recieve no benefit from supporting Israel.

When I said that I'd perfer Iranian support I mean if I had to make a choice.

Which I, nor America, does not have to do.

Also, it's rediculous to assert that we're support Israel over the Arabs. Have you ever heard of a country called Saudi Arabia? They're just as much of a client as the Israelis, the only difference is that Saudi lobbying doesn't abuse or government and we actually materially benefit from our relationship.

 

[Hatuey]

First of all, i'm completely certain that Israel attacked the Liberty on purpose because they knew we were spying on their activities and might possibly realy that back to the Egyptians.

Yes because we had every interest in Arabs winning the 6th day war. Are you completely insane?

Yes, Muslims are bad, very good. We all know that. However, they're not necessarily predisposed to hating us. And even if they are, that's only exacerbated by supporting Israel. Who would you rather have as friends, the people with a nasty little dessert the size of New Jersey good only for dates, or the people with the oil?

Why do you create more strawmen? Extremist Muslims bad. Moderate Muslims good. I'd rather have the people who don't to blow up America as my allies. Haven't seen any extremist zionists wanting that yet.

If Israel was a paragon of virtue I would support them despite it being a strategically poor choice. But they're not.

True, Israel is not a paragon of virtue. But neither are the 40+ African countries we send aid packages to nor all the South American countries who rely on us for military aid. We all have skeletons.

 

[new coup for you]

The difference is, giving money to Pinochet did not create groups like Al Qeada or endanger our fuel resources.

 

[Hatuey]

I never said we should support Arab states. What I said was that we recieve no benefit from supporting Israel.

Of course we do. We have a stable democracy in Israel. How many Arab countries can call themselves a democracy?

When I said that I'd perfer Iranian support I mean if I had to make a choice.

And you'd be foolish.

Which I, nor America, does not have to do.

Also, it's rediculous to assert that we're support Israel over the Arabs. Have you ever heard of a country called Saudi Arabia? They're just as much of a client as the Israelis, the only difference is that Saudi lobbying doesn't abuse or government and we actually materially benefit from our relationship.

Right. Now imagine that Saudi Arabia and Israel go at it. Who do you think we'll back? The people who support our enemies while screwing us over with oil. Or the people who have been our allies for decades? Not a hard pick.

 

[Hatuey]

The difference is, giving money to Pinochet did not create groups like Al Qeada or endanger our fuel resources.

Right and if you had a clue as to what you're talking about you'd know that the main reason for Al-Qaeda's being is that we stepped on their Holy Land. That dust carpet in Saudi Arabia.

 

[new coup for you]

They consider Israels existence an affront to their religion, and consider us an acomplice in that.

And is Isreal a stable democracy? It is for Jews. Not so much for Palestinians. Whites could vote in South Africa. I'm not pointing this out because I think we shouldn't support Israel for moral reasons, merely that if morallity is our entire reason for supporting Israel it's completely misguided.

Isreal isn't Nazi Germany or any of the stupid things that the far left compares it to. However, it's also not a Luxemburg either. It's a country built on oppression and violence.

Again, I don't really care. The US has in the past support very awful things, and many times they were warranted. The Mujahadeen and the Taliban were horrible, but 9/11 is an acceptable price for toppling the Soviet Union- quite possibly the most murderous regime in human history.

We have to assess what we give to Isreal and what we get from them. To me it seems we give them an awful lot and recieve very little.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I never said we should support Arab states. What I said was that we recieve no benefit from supporting Israel.

No, I believe these two statements show you stating a choice:

Who would you rather have as friends, the people with a nasty little dessert the size of New Jersey good only for dates, or the people with the oil?

I'd much rather have the Iranians as our ally then the Israelis. The Iranians coudl help us root out Sunni terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda because as Shiites they already have a hostile predispostion towards those groups.

When I said that I'd perfer Iranian support I mean if I had to make a choice.

Which I, nor America, does not have to do.

Firstly, clarification is key. Secondly, of course America has to chose who to support. We are not an isolationist nation, and we need to trade for economic reasons. We cannot support both nations. Your position is that we should chose a nation, regardless of how horrible it is, in order to fulfill our oil needs. This is exactly what Arab nations want, and how they have control. My position is to look at what is happening in these countries. If a nation wants my support, their behavior is more important than what they have. Israel wins that contest, easily.

Also, it's rediculous to assert that we're support Israel over the Arabs. Have you ever heard of a country called Saudi Arabia? They're just as much of a client as the Israelis, the only difference is that Saudi lobbying doesn't abuse or government and we actually materially benefit from our relationship.

You've been asserting that we support Israel over the Arabs And Israeli lobbying does not abuse the government and we benefit from the alliance with them. Now you haven't been reading 'The Protocols of Zion' now, have you? You're not of the ridiculous opinion that the Israeli lobby and the Jews control the US?

 

[new coup for you]

I think the Israel exerts exactly the same kind of abusive lobbying as US Corporations and the Evangelicals.

The difference: GE and Ralph Reed are actually Americans.

Foreigners have no right to a say in my government.

If you continue to make veiled assertions of my views being anti-semetic i'm going to stop posting. I' not an anti-semite. That's the only time i'm going to say it.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

They consider Israels existence an affront to their religion, and consider us an acomplice in that.

That's their reasoning. They can believe what they want.

And is Isreal a stable democracy? It is for Jews. Not so much for Palestinians. Whites could vote in South Africa. I'm not pointing this out because I think we shouldn't support Israel for moral reasons, merely that if morallity is our entire reason for supporting Israel it's completely misguided.

Now don't go with the "Israel is an apartheid state" argument. That has been debunked more times than I can count. It isn't, at all. Palestinians are not citizens of Israel; they are citizens of their own territory. They have no rights to vote in Israel. Do you vote in Canadian elections?

Isreal isn't Nazi Germany or any of the stupid things that the far left compares it to. However, it's also not a Luxemburg either. It's a country built on oppression and violence.

Not in the least. Israeli violence is, mostly reactive and self-protective.

We have to assess what we give to Isreal and what we get from them. To me it seems we give them an awful lot and recieve very little.

Allies in an area that, with the exception of Israel, is almost completely made up of theocratic dictatorships or other types of dictatorships is invaluable.

 

[new coup for you]

The rest of the middle east being very bad does not mean that Israel is deserving of our support.

Particularly if it endangers our interests. Do you want cheap oil and world without a a constant threat of terrorism, or do you want Israel?

Obviously I'm being overly simplistic. Oil prices would rise and terrorism would exist reguardless of our position on Israel. However, our continued support of Isreal makes both problems worse.

 

[Hatuey]

Freudian slip?

Palestinians are citizens of Israel; they are citizens of their own territory. They have no rights to vote in Israel.

heheheh sorry couldn't resist. Whats with all the anti-Israel sentiment?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I think the Israel exerts exactly the same kind of abusive lobbying as US Corporations and the Evangelicals.

The difference: GE and Ralph Reed are actually Americans.

Foreigners have no right to a say in my government.

Since we have a foreign policy that requires us to deal with other countries, who we deal with is important. We must chose who to deal with based on their behaviors and our needs. Foreigners do not have say in our country. Obviously, the US believes that it's alliance with Israel is beneficial for some of the reasons I've mentioned. This is not about foreigners having say in the government, it's about the government making choices.

If you continue to make veiled assertions of my views being anti-semetic i'm going to stop posting. I' not an anti-semite. That's the only time i'm going to say it.

When one starts implying an Israeli/Jewish control of our government, I will address it. This can be prejudicial. You say you are not an anti-semite and I believe you. Thank you for the clarification and I appologize if you were offended.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Freudian slip?



heheheh sorry couldn't resist. Whats with all the anti-Israel sentiment?

I fixed it. Typing too fast and doing too many things at the same time. :doh

 

[new coup for you]

Does the US believe that its relationship with Halliburton is beneficial? No, critical members of our legislature and executive branch with critical control over certain apointments do.

Israel is exactly the same, except that the end result benefits foreigners not Americans.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

The rest of the middle east being very bad does not mean that Israel is deserving of our support.

Particularly if it endangers our interests. Do you want cheap oil and world without a a constant threat of terrorism, or do you want Israel?

Obviously I'm being overly simplistic. Oil prices would rise and terrorism would exist reguardless of our position on Israel. However, our continued support of Isreal makes both problems worse.

It is a little simplistic. I won't ally myself with the school bully just because he gives me lunch money and promises to not beat me up everyday. I'd rather ally myself with the kid he's picking on, and put a stop to him. I'm stronger than him any way...the only advantage he has is that I play by the rules.

 

[new coup for you]

Yes, if Israel was a guiltless victim it would be different. But they're not.

 

[Hatuey]

The rest of the middle east being very bad does not mean that Israel is deserving of our support.

Isreal not wanting to blow us up deserves our support.

Particularly if it endangers our interests. Do you want cheap oil and world without a a constant threat of terrorism, or do you want Israel?

When gas was cheap was there less terrorism? I think what you mean is that our presence in Iraq has created terrorism and has had an effect of oil supplies. However this has nothing to do with Israel. It has to do with neo-con stupidity.

Obviously I'm being overly simplistic. Oil prices would rise and terrorism would exist reguardless of our position on Israel. However, our continued support of Isreal makes both problems worse.

Evidence? Do you think that if we stopped supporting Israel and let Muslim extremists attack it as they wish that gas prices would somehow come tumbling down or have a significant effect on the situation? Not in the least bit. Their anger is at our liberty and freedom. Support for Israel is just an earmark.

 

[Hatuey]

Yes, if Israel was a guiltless victim it would be different. But they're not.

Would you like the list of atrocities committed by Muslim extremists to be posted? What about the Saudi Arabian support for our sworn enemies? Iranian slaughters? Trust me. The list of atrocities committed by Israel doesn't even come close to that of extremists.

 

[new coup for you]

...they're angry at our liberty and freedom?

I'm speechless.

Are you serious? Maybe they're angry that we support a country that bascially colonized a very sacred place in their region.

Why do the extremists hate us? It's not because they "hate our freedom". That's ludicrous. That's what Bush wants us to think.

They hate us because of the things we do, not the kind of people we are.

Israel is offensive to them. We support Isreal. We become offensive to them.