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Is God real?

Atheism is rightly called a form of insanity in the bible. Why? Because in order to dogmmatically say "there is no God", one would have to assert they have ALL KNOWLEDGE that only the God they say does not exist could have. He would have to assert he had looked on every mountain, every planet, the center of the earth and found no God. He would have to say he used a spiritual geiger counter, checked other dimensions and found no God. Truth is, the best sane answer one can give other than "I believe" is "I do not know".
 
Squawker said:
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Hornburger!


I think it is important for people to believe in something outside of themselves. It makes the painful times in our lives bearable, and gives us hope for a better tomorrow.
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Actually, this is the best common-sense answer I've ever seen to that question. It works well enough for me, too.
 
anomaly said:
But even in evolution, which I view as fact, where did the matter come from? Organic compunds can turn into organisms, that has been proven. But where did that compound come from? Where did all the caabon atoms themselves come from? Have they always existed? But then isn't it acknowledged that all things have a beginning? MAtter, say modern scientists, came from energy from the big bang. This is rather reasonable, but again, there are more things to consider. What caused the bang? Where di the energy come from? Again, until someone can make matter come from nowhere, I must subscribe myself to theism.
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We are faced with accepting that matter has always existed, or that a creator made the matter and then science takes over in determining what happen to the matter to cause life to come into being, along with the order of the universe.

It is, to my mind, far more likely that matter has always existed because we can see the order that is in both the universe and life itself. There is no need to manage life or the universe. Both do just fine on their own. In other words, why would a creator make something that doesn't need any outside help to continue to exist? God is unnecessary except to certain co-dependant people who need God to explain why they are alive.

As to God giving certain people things, it seems unfair. I can't believe that God would help a person get a promotion which I am also trying to get.
 
Rev. said:
I was a Pre-med student in college, so I studied science. And came up with questions like "If the Law of Chaos says that all matter moves toward equal and random distribution, how then did we evolve toward increasing complexity? To become more complex through evolution flies straight in the face of entropy."
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First off, it is not always a simple thing to differentiate between increasing complexity and decreasing complexity. A simple case in point...

Most of us would agree that the universe is a complex entity... its dynamic order and structure increases as it evolves and matures with the passage of time.

Although this proposal seems obvious and intuitively correct, it is not. The universe as we know it is not evolving... it is devolving. It is not growing more structured, but rather less structured.

Although it appears to us that the cosmos becomes more and more complex with the passage of time, the converse is actually true and the law of entropy is indeed valid. The trap we fall into is that we only consider the universe as it is now... rather than where it has been.

In the Big Bang scenario, everything in our universe sprang from an initial symmetrical singularity. What this means in essence is that everything was in perfect unity. Big Bang plus three seconds and things change... unity is disrupted as forces separate and become non-symmetrical. Initial perfection is becoming more chaotic and disorganized.

When we look up into the night sky, what appears to us as the beautiful results of increasing complexity... is actually the beautiful phenomena of decreasing complexity.

Remember that although beauty always has its own imperium, complexity and chaos must be considered in relational frames of relevance and reference.


 
Does God exist?

This is surely a fundamental question that nearly all humans have pondered with throughout human history. The vast array of religions are a testimony to the human tendency to grasp at the divine. This in itself is perhaps the strongest testimony to Godْs existence. It can be said that all humans have an innate desire; an emptiness that they feel must be filled. The human quest for power, riches, sensual pleasure, security, fame and indulgence in natural pleasures is a response to the heartfelt desire for a higher goodness. Temporal pleasures and even natural love is often transitory and ultimately unfulfilling. As humans indulge in their passions their desires continue to go unfulfilled. Many attempt to fill the void with increasing worldly pleasures with little results.

Such powerful and elusive desires are a cry from the soul which seeks something that can not be gratified by the things of this world. For the moment we will consider discontent of the heart as a mark of God calling us to embrace him.

But I demand physical proof!

St. Thomas Aquinas proposed five proofs in which humans can use natural reason to prove the existence of God through extrinsic evidence. Through the use of natural reason we can logically conclude in the existence of God. Yet strictly speaking, Godْs existence cannot be definitively proven through laboratory tests and experimental science. Not all things are subject to experimental science. It is illogical to say, "If I can not see, taste, touch, feel or hear something it must not exist!" Reason and extrinsic evidence must also be considered. Experimental science and intrinsic evidence cannot definitively prove historical events, and yet by reason we know they have occurred. And surely were science falters and extrinsic evidence fail, reason and intrinsic evidence can prove the spiritual which can not be measured by material sciences.

St. Thomas Aquinas five proofs of the existence of God

Aquinasْ first proof is through the argument of motion. It can be noted that some things in the universe are in motion and it follows that whatever is in the state of motion must have been placed in motion by another such act. Motion in itself is nothing less then the reduction of something from the state of potentiality to actuality. Because something can not be in potentiality and actuality simultaneously, it follows that something can not be a mover of itself. A simple example of this is a rubber ball motionless on a flat surface. It has the potential for motion, but is not currently in the state of actual motion. In order for this to happen, something else in motion must set the ball in motion, be that gravity, another moving object or the wind. And yet something must have set that object in motion as well (even gravity, a force caused by matter warping the space-time fabric, attributes its existence to pre-existing matter and the exchange of pre-existing graviton particles). Thus pre-existing motions cause all motions. Yet, this chain can not extend into infinity because that would deny a first mover that set all else in motion. Without a first mover, nothing could be set in motion. Thus we acknowledge the first and primary mover as God.

The second proof follows closely with the first and expounds the principle of causality. St. Thomas explains that in the world of sense there is an order of causes and effects. There is a cause for all things such as the existence of a clock. And nothing can cause itself into existence. A clock cannot will itself into existence, it must be created and caused into existence by something else. A clockmaker creates a clock and causes its existence, and yet the material of the clock and the clockmaker did not cause themselves to exist. Something else must have caused their existence. All things can attribute their existence to a first cause that began all causes and all things. We call this first cause God.

Aquinas next explains that things of this universe have a transitory nature in which they are generated and then corrupt over time. Because of this the things of nature can be said to be "possible to be and possible not to be". Since it is impossible for these things always to exist, then it indicates a time when they did not exist. If there are things which are transitory (and are possible not to be) then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. However, as was already explained in his second proof, there must have been a first cause that was not of transitory nature that could have generated the beginning of nature.

In his fourth point Aquinas notes that there is a certain gradation in all things. For instance we can group things that are hot according to varying degrees of the amount of heat perceptible in that object. In classifying objects there is always something which displays the maximum fullness of that characteristic. Thus universal qualities in man such as justice and goodness must attribute their varying qualities to God; the source of maximum and perfect justice and goodness.

Finally, Thomas Aquinas says that the order of nature presupposes a higher plan in creation. The laws governing the universe presuppose a universal legislature who authored the order of the universe. We cannot say that chance creates order in the universe. If you drop a cup on the floor it shatters into bits and has become disordered. But if you were to drop bits of the cup, they would not assemble together into a cup. This is an example of the inherent disorder prevalent in the universe when things are left to chance. The existence of order and natural laws presupposes a divine intelligence who authored the universe into being.

Conclusions from St. Thomas Aquinasْ proofs

These proofs reveal many truths about the divine God. The existence of life and the order of creation can be attributed to God; the cause and creator of the universe. From the principal of causality we know that God is infinite and beyond the laws of nature and our human universe. In order for him to be the first cause, he must have been in existence before all else in the universe. We know that nature is composed of things that are not eternal but are transitory. Thus the universe attributes its transitory nature to a first cause that cannot be defined as transitory and is thus not a part of nature. So God is neither of a finite lifetime, nor is he "inseparably a part of nature". Nature by itself is not God. We also know that God is the divine source of justice and goodness; attributes found in all men and woman in varying degrees. In fact our universal feelings of justice demand a God. Justice is not a human attribute created by us, it is a quality imprinted in our very being by our creator. A being who must also posses the very quintessence of justice in order to endow us with justice.

Finally, we know that God is personal. It can be likewise argued that the qualities that make humans personal and conscience are what place us above other created things such as plants and animals. Since God is a higher order of being, he is likewise the very quintessence of a personal being.

But why do bad things happen to good people?

So where is this supremely good, personal and just God in our world? Why so much misery and suffering? This is a fundamental mystery for which human reason cannot fully explain. Although we can reasonably conclude to the existence of God we cannot hope to fully fathom the infinite and divine intellect of our creator with finite human minds.

However, we can reason that God has decided to endow us with free will, a tremendous gift that gives humans the freedom to choose between love of God and hatred of him. We can choose between good and evil. So why did he decide to give us the freedom to choose evil? It is enough to say that God created us as human beings and not as preprogrammed robots. In his infinite goodness he desired the free love of humanity over forced obedience to his will. For love cannot be forced, it must be given by desire and choice.

Because of our free will, some people have embraced evil and selfishness to satiate themselves at the expense of others. True evil is a result of desire of oneself over that of God, and thus sin and evil is a rejection of God. Because God is of infinite perfection, beatitude, and justice, he cannot allow sin to go unpunished. Neither can he allow sinful people to embrace him in his fullness in heaven. Thus our world, tainted by sin, is racked with much sadness and suffering. Sin separates us from the all-pleasing and loving God.

As emphasized before, the simultaneous existence of good and evil is a mystery to human intelligence, but it in no way proves that God does not exist. It only points to our own finite and limited existence. Our God is infinitely good and just, and thus as the source of our lives were are created to be his friends and children. We are called to live in goodness and justice as a response to our love of God. God loves us, but it is up to us to return his love.
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It must be acknowledged that the natural philosophy espoused by Thomas Aquinas in regard to Genesis is eloquently presented and on face value seems to be obvious and quite intuitive.

The rub is that the universe is rarely conveniently intuitive. One must also acknowledge and realize that Aquinas pegged his philosophical proofs on the accepted (and scientifically primitive) cosmology of his day.

 
nkgupta80 said:
what is everyone's take on god, and who or what he/she/it is.
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I doubt there is a God or Gods, because they are usually described as flawless, then why create a world with so many flaws, and who created God. Though who or what then created Earth.
 
I have a solution for everyone who doesn't believe in God.
Go to Mississippi or some other southern state, find the first baptist church you find and go inside. If you come out believing in God come see me and help me out because I am most definitely going to hell.(there is one requirement: you can't be baptist already for this to apply)
 
Comrade Brian said:
I doubt there is a God or Gods, because they are usually described as flawless, then why create a world with so many flaws, and who created God. Though who or what then created Earth.
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God created a perfect world... God left Man in charge of it... Man messed it up... What more do you want?
 
Listen Everybody !

Here are the answers you look for :


Chance Or Intelligence ?

Do You Believe That Evolution Is True?


Is There A Creator ?


Is there A God?
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Those links hardly gave any new insight. Non-atheists have already been posing those same arguments in this debate, and atheists have given their own counter arguments to each of those.
 
Ahh... the age old question.

Two arguments for the non-existence of God so far have been,
-there is no evidence that can be proven to suuport existance.
-all scientific laws point towards the lack of a God

The answer to these two points lie within themselves. If there is no evidence to show that there is a God, then logically, there is not a God, correct? No. If any person can tell me, Unicorns do not exist, then they are speaking out of lack of knowledge. For in order to state that unicorns do not exist, you would need to prove that there are no Unicorns in any spacial area nor any time. Obviously, nobody could ever amass that knowledge. Therefore, you cannot disprove somethings existence by lack of evidence. In the same matter, you cannot prove the existance of something by lack of evidence againsts its exeistance.

Secondly, if the laws of science undoubtedly prove that God cannot exist, then they would have to exist. A nonexistant law cannot prove anything. Therefore, you need to prove these laws of science before using those laws to disprove God. However, there is no evidence to prove these laws. We cannot hold the law in our hand or hear it or see it. Now if we use other methods to prove these laws, we would have to be using other laws in themselves. Logic, can be considered a law in this case, because logic cannot be proved without using laws. Therefore, we cannot prove nor disprove laws or logic. So how then, can we disprove God?

In conclusion, you cannot use laws or lack of evidence to disprove God, but these same laws cannot be used to prove him either. Hope this post made sense, I'm a bit tired writing it.
 
I just believe in God like a child does, I just believe. I don't question his existance and I don't need physical proof. I can and have felt his presence in my life. If I'm having trouble I just turn to God and I know that everything will be okay. How has being an athiest or agnostic benifited your life and you as a person. Are you really a better person because of this. Some of you might not be a believer simply because you were hurt by someone who claimed to be a christian or you just think it's a cult and a place where you are binded and can't have any freedom. I have had way more freedom as a christian than an athiest. I'm more loveable and kind. I have hope and just a better life as a christian. You want physical proof, just look at my life and how much it has changed since I really started believeing. My attitude, my values, my heart is physical proof. How has your life benifited you as an athiest or agnostic?
 
You seek for a physical proof that The God exists....Ok ?

Just give me ONE physical proof that The God does not exist .

The God is not physical nor material, The God is divine and not limited.

A physical proof can never prove a non-physical entity .

I still invite all members to refer to these links :

Is there A God?
Is There A Creator ?
Chance Or Intelligence ?
Do You Believe That Evolution Is True?


NB: "Allah" in Arabic is formed of two parts "Al" and "elah" ; As "Al" means "The" and "elah" means "God" .
When "Al" and "elah" are combined together, They're pronounced "Allah"

So Allah = The God . He is the same God in Islam, Christianity and Judaism .
 
I believe god is real, but not the god christians and muslims describe.
 
"Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others." - Buddha

I think that's the most important thing about religion anyone could ever say.
 

Is God real?​
Deistic theology demands an affirmative answer. Atheism demands a negative response. Philosophy argues the merits and de-merits of both possibilities. Thankfully, science embraces a position of blessed neutrality.

As a cosmologist, I am often asked about my personal views on God and Genesis. For various reasons, most people simply assume that science and spirituality must be mutually exclusive. I can honestly say that the majority of people involved in the space-sciences possess a deep and abiding sense of spirituality.

Science cannot and does not seek to investigate faith or attempt to explain the realm of metaphysics. By the same token, faith alone cannot be the exclusive repository of all dynamic knowledge. Where science ends, faith begins. It's just that simple.

Hmmm. On a blank sheet of paper draw a large circle and within this circle write the word 'universe'...

Scenario number 1) There is no God and your sheet of paper is valid as is.

Scenario number 2) Outside of your universe circle write the word God. This implies that our universe and a God co-exist, but as distinct and separate entities which have never interacted.

Scenario number 3) Write the word God within your universe circle. This implies that our universe and God are actually one and the same.

Scenario number 4) Write the word God so that it straddles the universe circle line. This implies that God and our universe are distinct entities... yet at some unknown point they have always been connected.

In the final analysis, it is up to each one of us to determine which scenario we feel the most comfortable with.

Shalom,
Tashah

 
Hornburger said:
Here's my opinion...I think that we do not have enough evidence to determine the answer either way but go on as if we don't know the answer...there are too many holes in both arguments..

I consider myself an agnostic for the reasons above...however I do tend to favor with the atheists...mostly because ever since the age of cavemen people have been trying to explain the world around them and how it came to be...and the afterlife as a hope and point given to their lives...Also scientific theories and logic seem more prevalent on how man came to be with things like evolutionism...And not to mention the great parallels between religions and various "holy books" and stories/epics, and the morals presented in them with ancient, as well as modern, political law and human, not divine, attitude...and also the contradictions present inside books such as the Bible (However it could be said that the bible stories are merely representations of everything that came to be, not to be taken literally).

I was just wondering everybody's opinions on the subject of the existence of God.
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I wonder if animals believe in God, or whether they, too, are threatened with hellfire and damnation for not believing or behaving in a certain fashion.
 
Aleem said:
You seek for a physical proof that The God exists....Ok ?
Just give me ONE physical proof that The God does not exist.
The God is not physical nor material, The God is divine and not limited.
A physical proof can never prove a non-physical entity.

[snip]
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If you've ever studied logic, you'll realize that it is not possible to prove that something does not exist, only that it does. Proving non-existence is not necessary, because non-existence is axiomatic. It may or may not be possible to prove that God does exist.
 
geekgrrl said:
If you've ever studied logic, you'll realize that it is not possible to prove that something does not exist, only that it does. Proving non-existence is not necessary, because non-existence is axiomatic. It may or may not be possible to prove that God does exist.
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On the physical level, Proving the non-existence or proving the existence both have the same possibility (either easy or difficult which depends on man intelligence) .

But in regard to the axiom, I think that the existence is axiomatic .

When you see a chair, What's more axiomatic : the existence or the non-existence of the carpenter ? And because the carpenter is physical, So we can prove his presence physically .

Thus, The effect(e.g. chair) indicates the presence of the affecter(e.g.carpenter) .

But if we can not assess something physically, We should look for its effects .

By the same logic, If you see a human being, It's axiomatic that there's a creator . And because we can not physicaly prove the presence of that creator, So we should look for his effects (e.g. human being, animals, plants, earth, sun, moon,.....i.e.the whole universe ).

***Read this verse of Qur'an which says :

"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us(i.e The God), and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

The mountain which is more solid and harder than a human being(Moses) could not endure Allah(The God)'s manifestation, So what about us ?

***Also Allah says in Qur'an :

" (17) Do they not look at the Camels, how they are made?- (18 ) And at the Sky, how it is raised high?- (19) And at the Mountains, how they are fixed firm?-(20) And at the Earth, how it is spread out? "

The God wants us to contemplate his effects .

***Also another verse says :

"Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what message after this will they then believe?"
 
Your just using the cause and effect example. The problem with that is if God is the creator of everything, then something must have created or caused God. It just goes on. Beginning and end is an illusion anyways, cause u can always go further back or go ahead. That's why you can't prove it, and its all based on faith.
 
Quertol said:
God created a perfect world... God left Man in charge of it... Man messed it up... What more do you want?
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yeah, whatever

If God is so perfect he wouldn't have created people with flaws to mess things up, and that still wouldn't answer the question Who created God or Gods?
 
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