Is free will an illusion?

[Mr Person]

Yup.
People tend to forget that if you have two apples and add another two apples, you do not have four identical units. You have four different units that you have categorized as "apples", even though all four have different weight, color, taste, etc., all the way down to the molecular level. They are not the same, only similar. Same goes for multiplication/division. Math is abstract and only exists in the head of the thinker.
Which would indicate that math cannot provide an reliable descriptor of the universe, hence making it a non-clockwork universe.

But clockwork thinking is quite useful for performing most tasks.
It allows architect to figure out how much weight a column can safely bear, lets us make schedules for getting from A to B, exchange units of value at the supermarket, and send robots to Mars.

Ah, but that I have to disagree with.

If mathematics were just some mumbo jumbo in our heads, it could not be used to predict that certain observations will be made if an experiment is conducted in a certain way, or in the case of Einstein, if you can look at light shining around a strong enough gravity source with a strong enough telescope. But you can.

If mathematics were purely in our heads - if it were just some bullshit we make up to describe what we've seen - then you couldn't make successful further predictions based on it with any greater accuracy than pure chance.

There is a clear and direct relationship between mathematics and behavior in this universe.





That said.......I'm not sure this means I'm saying that this is a "clockwork universe". The entire premise of physics/mathematics is that in specified conditions, you can predict the behavior of whatever experimental objects you have set up. It's not built to take account of the potential behavior of beings with free will.

I'd have to go back to refresh on what exactly is meant by "clockwork universe". I seem to remember Leibniz and the idea of the world as a great predictable machine, which does not require the input of a God. It sounds like people extrapolate out from that to suppose one could predict the beginning and end of the universe from any set of points in it. If so, yes, free will cannot exist, because if it does the end of the universe is different if I walk across my room right now, if I drive to Alabama on a lark, or if I dump a glass of water on my head and stay seated.

I'd go with hybrid (unless this turns out to be what 'non-clockwork' means): Mathematics-physics is proven clockwork. Introduce life, the less predictable system-wide events become, dependent on just how much autonomy the life in question has. Take a closed experimental system that can house humans. Put a few types of object in there, food source, water source, and either certain bacteria or humans. The end-state of everything in the system will be a hell of a lot easier to predict in the bacteria experiment than the human experiment.

I don't see why anyone should have to choose between pure clockwork and pure non-clockwork. It's a mix.

 

[HK.227]

If mathematics were purely in our heads - if it were just some bullshit we make up to describe what we've seen - then you couldn't make successful further predictions based on it with any greater accuracy than pure chance.

Sorry. Mathematics using absolute numbers.
And even without that stipulation thrown in, I would still disagree with your assessment. Animals estimate stuff all the time without the use of math, and obviously their judgement is not completely random.
Math simulates reality, reality does not simulate math. Physics > math.

 

[quip]

First of all, I've yet to see fundamental discussions between the basic Will and it's purported quality of freedom I.e. Freewill.
We employ our Will constantly, though - many times, by forces beyond our control - our Will is sometimes thwarted; it fails to manifest. So, wherein lies its ability to be free?

Second, existentially speaking, I never consciously presumed the volition to choose or reject my very existence nor -by extension- its accossiated Will. Can that which was foisted upon me be considered free; employed freely without inherent contradiction?

Third: This example.

Suppose you find yourself feeling moderately hungry one afternoon, so you walk to the fruit bowl in your kitchen, where you see one apple and one banana....

The "....find yourself feeling moderately hungry" determinate precedes the so-called freewilled choice between apple or banana. In relation to this discussion, this choice remains redundant.

I'm simply not seeing how our Will consistently maintains any form of freedom.

 

[Peter]

Replying to the OP.
I'm not sure it matters.
I suppose I might care if scientists worked out this is all a simulation universe but even then does it really make a difference?

 

[watsup]

First of all, I've yet to see fundamental discussions between the basic Will and it's purported quality of freedom I.e. Freewill.
We employ our Will constantly, though - many times, by forces beyond our control - our Will is sometimes thwarted; it fails to manifest. So, wherein lies its ability to be free?

Second, existentially speaking, I never consciously presumed the volition to choose or reject my very existence nor -by extension- its accossiated Will. Can that which was foisted upon me be considered free; employed freely without inherent contradiction?

Third: This example.

The "....find yourself feeling moderately hungry" determinate precedes the so-called freewilled choice between apple or banana.

I'm simply not seeing how our Will consistently maintains any form of freedom.

Why the capitalization of Will?
Google maps gives you three different routes to a destination. How it it not free will to choose a particular one over the other two?

 

[quip]

Why the capitalization of Will?

Just for reading clarity. 'Will' as the subject noun not a verb.

Is this important?

 

[quip]

Google maps gives you three different routes to a destination. How it it not free will to choose a particular one over the other two?

Which are all determined by the (pre)- existence of the options ...including Google maps. No options, no choice may ever manifest.

 

[ecofarm]

You all barely exist. Of course you don't have free will.

 

[j brown's body]

That right there is evidence of free will. Irrational thought and action is proof.

Not sure what you mean.

 

[j brown's body]

Yup.
People tend to forget that if you have two apples and add another two apples, you do not have four identical units. You have four different units that you have categorized as "apples", even though all four have different weight, color, taste, etc., all the way down to the molecular level. They are not the same, only similar. Same goes for multiplication/division. Math is abstract and only exists in the head of the thinker.
Which would indicate that math cannot provide an reliable descriptor of the universe, hence making it a non-clockwork universe.

But clockwork thinking is quite useful for performing most tasks.
It allows architect to figure out how much weight a column can safely bear, lets us make schedules for getting from A to B, exchange units of value at the supermarket, and send robots to Mars.

See how far you get with insisting that 2+2=5.

 

[watsup]

You all barely exist. Of course you don't have free will.

Using my free will, I disagree.

 

[ecofarm]

Using my free will, I disagree.

Nah. I just like that.

 

[grip]

First of all, I've yet to see fundamental discussions between the basic Will and it's purported quality of freedom I.e. Freewill.
We employ our Will constantly, though - many times, by forces beyond our control - our Will is sometimes thwarted; it fails to manifest. So, wherein lies its ability to be free?

Second, existentially speaking, I never consciously presumed the volition to choose or reject my very existence nor -by extension- its accossiated Will. Can that which was foisted upon me be considered free; employed freely without inherent contradiction?

Third: This example.

The "....find yourself feeling moderately hungry" determinate precedes the so-called freewilled choice between apple or banana. In relation to this discussion, this choice remains redundant.

I'm simply not seeing how our Will consistently maintains any form of freedom.

Without our free 'will', to do things out of choice, we are under nature's will of following instincts. We basically have the 'will' to make errors against nature's better judgment or higher intelligence.

 

[watsup]

Just for reading clarity. 'Will' as the subject noun not a verb.

Is this important?

“Subject nouns” are not normally capitalized unless they refer to a “proper noun”, such as a person or a named building, etc. As such, I can’t remember anyone else in this thread of over 60 pages capitalizing the term Will. I was just curious as to why you were doing so. Evidently it is because you were utilizing your free will to use the normal rules of the English language in a nonstandard manner. As you wish.

 

[quip]

Without our free 'will', to do things out of choice, we are under nature's will of following instincts. We basically have the 'will' to make errors against nature's better judgment or higher intelligence.

I agree. We enjoy a 'will' to do so. Though how does this imply we're still not "under nature's will of following instincts" just at a higher level of understanding?

 

[watsup]

Which are all determined by the (pre)- existence of the options ...including Google maps. No options, no choice may ever manifest.

Of course there is a pre-existence of options. How are we to use out free will to choose unless their are options? In this case, one could choose the shortest route that may yet take more time, a longer route that takes less time, or a route that takes both more time and is longer but is more scenic. After weighing these options, the person then uses his or her free will to make a CHOICE. That is what free will is all about.

 

[watsup]

I agree. We enjoy a 'will' to do so. Though how does this imply we're still not "under nature's will of following instincts" just at a higher level of understanding?

Is there a difference between “instincts” and intelligence?

 

[quip]

“Subject nouns” are not normally capitalized unless they refer to a “proper noun”, such as a person or a named building, etc. As such, I can’t remember anyone else in this thread of over 60 pages capitalizing the term Will. I was just curious as to why you were doing so. Evidently it is because you were utilizing your free will to use the normal rules of the English language in a nonstandard manner. As you wish.

Do tell. Flesh that out beyond witticism.

 

[watsup]

Do tell. Flesh that out beyond witticism.

I did so in the first phrase. Look up the term “proper nouns”.

 

[quip]

How are we to use out free will to choose unless their are options?

Exactly!
We tend to take our willed actions in isolation. All current actions are determined by prior ones ad infinitum.

 

[quip]

I did so in the first phrase. Look up the term “proper nouns”.

Congratulations

 

[quip]

Is there a difference between “instincts” and intelligence?

For the purposes of this discussion, very little.
Why?

 

[quip]

In this case, one could choose the shortest route that may yet take more time, a longer route that takes less time, or a route that takes both more time and is longer but is more scenic. After weighing these options, the person then uses his or her free will to make a CHOICE. That is what free will is all about.

Again, the Will is not being question here but rather its pronouncement of existing as free.

How does your set of options make choosing between them 'free'?
What's your criteria for choosing between them? Was this criteria freely chosen by you?

 

[watsup]

Exactly!
We tend to take our willed actions in isolation. All current actions are determined by prior ones ad infinitum.

That does not mean that said current actions are not “free” at the time that we make them. We of course depend on previous actions to “inform us” as to which actions would be best in the present case, but we are still free to choose as we wish.

 

[watsup]

Again, the Will is not being question here but rather its pronouncement of existing as free.

How does your set of options make choosing between them 'free'?
What's your criteria for choosing between them? Was this criteria freely chosen by you?

Who was it chosen by if not by me?