Is Atheism a religion? If not, what is?

[nkgupta80]

here's why atheism isn't a religion. Atheism just claims that htere is no god. Simple as that. This fact does not govern their They may claim there is no god, and start following a philosophy like or buddhism, or something. Then they are religious. Otherwise, they are not. If I just claimed that there IS a god, but didn't have that govern my life, then I am not religious.

I can claim that there is a god, but not have it govern my life. I can claim that some higherforce created everyone, and leave it at that. This isn't religion. If I were to use this point to justify morality, or a way of life, then I am religious.

 

[AlbqOwl]

here's why atheism isn't a religion. Atheism just claims that htere is no god. Simple as that. This fact does not govern their They may claim there is no god, and start following a philosophy like or buddhism, or something. Then they are religious. Otherwise, they are not. If I just claimed that there IS a god, but didn't have that govern my life, then I am not religious.

I can claim that there is a god, but not have it govern my life. I can claim that some higherforce created everyone, and leave it at that. This isn't religion. If I were to use this point to justify morality, or a way of life, then I am religious.

The premise here, however, is that Atheists are not content to simply say they do not believe there is a God as the nonreligious or areligious would say. They are not content to dismiss religion as irrelevent or irrational.

Atheists state with certainty: THERE IS NO GOD! And as often as not, they are are committed to promote their belief about God on everybody. They seem to be drawn to discussions like this for the express purpose of declaring how much more rational and scientific they are and how foolish, superstitious, irrational, brainwashed, misguided, etc. etc. etc. are those who do believe in God.

Further, Atheists are anti-other religions to the point they want no evidence of God or other religious faith anywhere in their world. Some are possessed of missionary zeal to promote their beliefs and/or are almost militant about it. They may actually participate in initiatives to force local, county, state, and/or national governments to eradicate all references to or evidence of religion from the public sector. If they happen to have control of despotic or totalitarian systems, they often make Atheism the law of the land with severe penalties for anybody caught not practicing it.

And finally, people of faith will sometimes be content in their own private spirituality or will join with like minded others in organized rituals or activities. Likewise with Atheists, some 'go it alone' and others join together with others to promote a united front. You can find numerous websites of Atheist organizations who promote their belief system.

In the Merriam Webster various definitions of religion you find: "(religion): a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith."

As to be certain there is no God requires as much faith as to believe there is a God, and as all the other components of religion can and/or do apply, I still say Atheism is a religion.

 

[nkgupta80]

The premise here, however, is that Atheists are not content to simply say they do not believe there is a God as the nonreligious or areligious would say. They are not content to dismiss religion as irrelevent or irrational.

Atheists state with certainty: THERE IS NO GOD! And as often as not, they are are committed to promote their belief about God on everybody. They seem to be drawn to discussions like this for the express purpose of declaring how much more rational and scientific they are and how foolish, superstitious, irrational, brainwashed, misguided, etc. etc. etc. are those who do believe in God.

Further, Atheists are anti-other religions to the point they want no evidence of God or other religious faith anywhere in their world. Some are possessed of missionary zeal to promote their beliefs and/or are almost militant about it. They may actually participate in initiatives to force local, county, state, and/or national governments to eradicate all references to or evidence of religion from the public sector. If they happen to have control of despotic or totalitarian systems, they often make Atheism the law of the land with severe penalties for anybody caught not practicing it.

And finally, people of faith will sometimes be content in their own private spirituality or will join with like minded others in organized rituals or activities. Likewise with Atheists, some 'go it alone' and others join together with others to promote a united front. You can find numerous websites of Atheist organizations who promote their belief system.

In the Merriam Webster various definitions of religion you find: "(religion): a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith."

As to be certain there is no God requires as much faith as to believe there is a God, and as all the other components of religion can and/or do apply, I still say Atheism is a religion.

How does it require faith. There is no god. i said it, its done. Its not some belief ive come to after much deliberation.

see it also depends onthe definitoin of god. The vaguest definition of god is to say it is some unkown creator force. This could easily be some kind of force that started the big bang. Almost no one including atheists denies that this force whatever it may be exists. Something created us -- that is almost inarguable. What makes an atheist say no to a god, is when you conclude that god is more specifically a supernatural being that constitutes this creator force. Hell, thats like saying a unicorn with magical powers created this universe. You can believe it, but an atheist chooses not to accept this view. Atheists tend to leave it at the vaguest definition. When you get any more specific with this definition, it becomes a belief, a religion. you're applying characteristics to the unknown, through mere philosophical speculation.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Nkgupta writes

How does it require faith. There is no god. i said it, its done. Its not some belief ive come to after much deliberation.kgupta says

There is a God. I've experienced Him and He has affected my life in significant ways. It's done. It's not some belief I've come to after much deliberation.

Your belief is no more provable than is mine.

Both are taken on faith.

And both are based on a religious belief.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

is this god you beileve in "male"

 

[AlbqOwl]

is this god you beileve in "male"

No, I believe God to be unencumbered by Gender. In the ancient Jewish tradition, however, God is described with both male and female attributes and you'll find gender-based metaphors used. It is simply convenient to assign a pronoun when discussing concepts of God, and given that most religious discussion involve attributes such as authoritarian, creator, protector, provider, Father, when referencing God, all associated with masculine, the more commonly assigned pronoun is "He". Humankind is severely limited in both scope of reasoning and in language to adequately describe who or what God really is of course.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

First off im glad that you dont think God is male.

In the ancient Jewish tradition, however, God is described with both male and female attributes and you'll find gender-based metaphors used

To a certain extent...
In ancient jewish tradition they came to a sense that God is indescribable to the human mind, therefore calling God male OR female is in a sense "incorrect", because who is to say what God is.....only God. That is why my view of God is NO GENDER, plus many other agurements, if you would like to hear them ask, it takes a little more time thats all.

 

[AlbqOwl]

First off im glad that you dont think God is male.



To a certain extent...
In ancient jewish tradition they came to a sense that God is indescribable to the human mind, therefore calling God male OR female is in a sense "incorrect", because who is to say what God is.....only God. That is why my view of God is NO GENDER, plus many other agurements, if you would like to hear them ask, it takes a little more time thats all.

No, I may not have been clear, but I did not mean to say that the ancient Jews assigned a gender to God. But in their writings, they did assign masculine and feminine attributes to God via symbolism and metaphors with the masculine attributes at the forefront. And that is where the masculine pronoun comes from. It is purely a matter of convenience and not intended to assign gender.

 

[Thorgasm]

AlbqOwl said


IndependentThinker said:

No, nonreligious people don't believe in a deity or spirituality or at least they certainly do not concern themselves with either. These are non issues to the nonreligious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
.

IndependentThinker responded


Keep up Sweetie. My post was in direct response to a discussion on whether more intelligent/better educated people are Atheists. And you need to put it into context.

Well, I am sure the number of overt Atheists you know will satisfy the threshold for a "scientific sample". :roll:
In context it still sounds like an "attack on the man".

Originally Posted by AlbqOwl


Independent Thinker


Now think about what you just said. If a Theist experiences something and says s/he experienced it, and the Atheist has had no such experience but says the Theist has not experienced it, which has the greater certainty of his/her statement?

I would hold the "I've been abducted by aliens" crowd to the same standard. Either prove it or I am not going to believe a "whopper of a tale". I mean, c'mon, you haven't even said how you have experienced god. I am just supposed to take your word for it?

See what I mean about 'walling yourself off' from possibilities?

Did you know they took the word "gullible" out of the dictionary? There are plenty of possibilities in the real world. What possibilities am I walling myself from? God could prove himself to me if it were true. Then I would experience him. Yet he hasn't. You know, people who don't know why or how something happens have a default answer. "It was god." I prefer to be honest and say "I don't know".

Originally Posted by AlbqOwl


Independent Thinker writes


No you're not destroying anyone's faith, but it doesn't stop you from trying. Just as you are doing here. You're denying the experience of the Theist and saying what they believe is just indoctrinated into them or 'will buy whatever they are told.' That's what almost all Atheist do. Nonreligious don't care what anybody else believe and certainly would not try to influence their beliefs.

How am I trying to destroy anyone's faith. Is it because I am debating in a debate forum? Yes, I will deny the experience of the theist unless he can prove his "fish story".

Here you go again!:roll: Your Clintonesque changing of definitions of words to suit your argument. "It depends on what the defintion of 'is' is". Just substitue "atheist" for "is". If you don't believe in a deity then you are an atheist, which is also nonreligious. Is changing the meaning of words one of the possibilities I am walling myself off from?

Originally Posted by AlbqOwl


Independentthinker writes


I did define the nonreligious. You elected not to see the definition.

Is your name Merriam Webster? Your twisted definition isn't acceptable. Nonreligious is atheist by default.

Originally Posted by AlbqOwl


Independentthinker writes


Nope. The nonreligious neither practices a religious belief nor cares when or where anybody else practices theirs. Most Atheists not only practice theirs, but promote theirs, and attempt to deny expression of anybody else's.

How do we practice? Oh yeah! We debate in debate forums. :roll: Also being in a reference tool is advertising.:roll: We only don't want tax dollars spent on it or the government endorsing it.

Edit: I think I understand your difference between atheist and nonreligious. Nonrelgious people are atheists who are in the closet. It's like the difference between homosexual and (insert derogatory gay tem here). Homosexuals are just out of sight and mind, huh?

 

[tryreading]

Did you know they took the word "gullible" out of the dictionary?

They didn't actually remove the word from the dictionary, but only changed its meaning, and printed it in red capital letters.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

No, I may not have been clear, but I did not mean to say that the ancient Jews assigned a gender to God. But in their writings, they did assign masculine and feminine attributes to God via symbolism and metaphors with the masculine attributes at the forefront. And that is where the masculine pronoun comes from. It is purely a matter of convenience and not intended to assign gender.

What do you mean "no". I agree with you to a certain extent. God isnt male because if you want to say because the word for God is male then you also have to consider the fact that the word for "hand" in Hebrew is femenine....so according to this logic God is male, but his hands are female hands. Could you clear up if you think god is male or female, or none...

 

[oracle25]

Well your brand of "logic" is a curious one.

I would suspect logic to be a curious thing to you.

Because people are known liars and storytellers. That is a much more reasonable conclusion than "leaps of faith" are.

Yes, a characteristic I see far more often in those who do not hold themselves to a higher power.

I might point out that you did not answer the question.

A creator is not logical.

You obviously spent a great deal of time on this answer. Your reasoning for this?

Not moot, proof. There are things that have no beginning or end.

Obviously while numbers may exist inside the laws of nature, they are not subjected to them the way the universe is. For instance, do you think entropy applies to numbers?

 

[nkgupta80]

Nkgupta writes


There is a God. I've experienced Him and He has affected my life in significant ways. It's done. It's not some belief I've come to after much deliberation.

Your belief is no more provable than is mine.

Both are taken on faith.

And both are based on a religious belief.

oh i don't doubt your faith at all. Your faith in your god, however, is not religion, until you add a philosophy and way of life behind that faith. In your case im guessing its Christianity.

I can sya that I believe in a flying spagghetti monster that created
all of us. HOwever, that is not a religion, until a I tie a philosophy and a way of life behind that belief. Thats the same with atheism. They can't prove that there isn't a god. Even if we assume that their claim for no god takes faith, it isn't a religion. The philosophy/way of life, however, that they tie to that belief in no god can be considered a religion.

Thus I can be atheist, and have no religion, cause I don't have any system or morality or way of life based on that belief of no god.

 

[AlbqOwl]

What do you mean "no". I agree with you to a certain extent. God isnt male because if you want to say because the word for God is male then you also have to consider the fact that the word for "hand" in Hebrew is femenine....so according to this logic God is male, but his hands are female hands. Could you clear up if you think god is male or female, or none...

Already asked and answered.

(P.S. I do not see a pronoun used as convenience when referring to a Deity as being altered or related in any way by gender assigned to various other words in any language.)

 

[AlbqOwl]

oh i don't doubt your faith at all. Your faith in your god, however, is not religion, until you add a philosophy and way of life behind that faith. In your case im guessing its Christianity.

Agreed. Which is why I have been consistent in saying that all believers are not necessarily religious, nor are all nonbelievers ncecessarily religious. The nonbeliever (areligious) bases very little or nothing on his/her nonbelief as s/he is absoluely unconcerned about whether there is or is not a God. S/he is as happy listening to Handel's "Messiah" as s/he loves "Winter Wonderland". Such people neither promote their belief nor are concerned about what anybody else believes. They are truly without religious conviction.

I can sya that I believe in a flying spagghetti monster that created
all of us. HOwever, that is not a religion, until a I tie a philosophy and a way of life behind that belief. Thats the same with atheism. They can't prove that there isn't a god. Even if we assume that their claim for no god takes faith, it isn't a religion. The philosophy/way of life, however, that they tie to that belief in no god can be considered a religion.

Thus I can be atheist, and have no religion, cause I don't have any system or morality or way of life based on that belief of no god

I see what you're saying, but the whole argument I'm making is that the nonreligious would certainly say they do not believe in a God, but this makes no difference in how they order their life. This appears to be how you see your own belief or nonbelief.

The Atheist however feels compelled to promote his/her belief re God, to hold in contempt or even confront those who do believe differently than s/he does, and may demand policies and/or legislation that favors his/her belief. It is a religion in itself.

If you fall into the first camp, you are areligious or nonreligious. If you fall into the second, you are an Atheist by my definition. Now admittedly, Merriam Webster would say you are an Atheist even if it is not part of your personal philosophy, politics, social sense, moral center, or important principles. Merriam Webster, however, contradicts itself when it gives the defintiion of religion. By Merriam Webster's definition of religion, Atheism, by its MO and behavior of its members, is a religion.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

ok but can you just say what you think God is.....DIRECTLY SAY IT..lol

 

[AlbqOwl]

ok but can you just say what you think God is.....DIRECTLY SAY IT..lol

Well, if that is directed to me, this has already been asked and answered at least in part.

I believe God is Spirit and, subject to amendment when other information is available, I think God is the author of the universe and everything in it. From experience I know that God loves me, provides direction, encouragement, and, every now and then, some hands on assistance. And I have every confidence that at some time I will step from this life into a different one and it will be great. I believe that all sin is that which harms oneself or somebody else and all that is wrong in the world results from either my sin, others' sins, or the aggregate sins of the generations. God allows sin that results from the dark side of free will because the only alternative would be for us all to be puppets with no capacity for choice or love. I have no illusions that what I know is but a teeny speck of a fraction of all there is to know of God.

All of this I know from my own experience, reason, and what I believe to be revelation, and I have absolutely no way to demonstrate or prove any of it to a single other person. I do, however, believe that it is available to anybody willing to open himself/herself to the possibility and who does so without putting any conditions, timeline, or other impediments in the way.

 

[MrFungus420]

ok but can you just say what you think God is.....DIRECTLY SAY IT..lol

A man-made construct used to explain the unknown. Competely mythological.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

A man-made construct used to explain the unknown. Competely mythological.

Completely mythological to you.

 

[Donkey1499]

Completely REAL to me, as is Big Foot, The Chupacabra, UFOs, and Nessy!

 

[hipster_19]

So, does anyone have a problem with the fact that George H.W. Bush (the first one) stated that atheists should not be considered U.S. citizens?

 

[Donkey1499]

So, does anyone have a problem with the fact that George H.W. Bush (the first one) stated that atheists should not be considered U.S. citizens?

Do you have a quote or link to back that up?

 

[hipster_19]

Do you have a quote or link to back that up?

Um, yeah....
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

 

[Donkey1499]

Um, yeah....
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

It was wrong for him to say that, BUT, I do kinda understand where he comes from. Christians are now being viewed as stupid, arrogant, moronic, racist, sexist, nazi, pigs. And it is wrong. And you know who is stirring up the anti-christian dissention? a small group of atheists. Which is unfortunate, for now all atheists are viewed as turds. But that's what happens, one small group says or does something, then the whole group worldwide is figured to be the same. And it ain't right!

 

[MrFungus420]

Completely mythological to you.

True, but didn't you ask me to say directly what I think God is?