Is assisted suicide murder?

[Scrabaholic]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

This is pretty easy.

We recognize a right to life for people. And a person can decide to no longer exercise their right to life. Assisted suicide is not done without the person's consent.

The unborn has no right to life. It is also completely incapable of exercising its right to life until birth. Before that, it is wholly intertwined with and dependent on the physiology of another individual.


Since you are asking about the legal aspects of the issue...this is the law.

I'd like to add to this that all "right to life" means is the *govt* cannot take your life without due process, or in the case of my country, the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

 

[Lursa]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Yes. The constitution does not address killing in war or self defense.

It doesnt address abortion directly either :doh

It supports the principles behind the need for those things or that protect them. The Constitution protects individual Americans.

You were on the right track with your observations about due process, privacy, etc.

Let me know when the govt can criminalize abortion without violating many of women's Constitutional rights. And if they were to do so, what would be the legal justification? Women are equal to men, according to the courts. What would make the courts reverse that decision? Enabling laws that forced the protection of the unborn lives above women's lives would clearly be unConstitutional in many ways (esp. in the attempt to enforce it).

 

[Lursa]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

That's because killing the unborn is killing, and the only thing argue is whether or not it should be illegal.

Who says?

Obviously many Americans believe differently and court decisions and the law state otherwise.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

It doesnt address abortion directly either :doh

So you agree....it's a slight of hand. I can't believe it, you actually admit I'm right on something!

 

[Lursa]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

So you agree....it's a slight of hand. I can't believe it, you actually admit I'm right on something!

I never wrote that abortion was in the Constitution and there is no right to abortion.

I've never claimed otherwise.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Who says?

Obviously many Americans believe differently and court decisions and the law state otherwise.

You do. Everyone knows abortion is legal, and you also said that abortion is killing. You said it yourself, therefore, it follows, that we're only debating whether or not it should be illegal, and to what extent. I'm only arriving to conclusions, based on the premises you told me. Are those premises suddenly wrong? Are you wrong somewhere? hmm.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

I never wrote that abortion was in the Constitution and there is no right to abortion.

I've never claimed otherwise.

glad we agree on something, although, it seems contradictory to you here:

The framework for abortion is legally established in the Constitution and precedent.

 

[Scrabaholic]

In the case of Terri Schiavo assisted suicide was definitely a case of brutal heartless democrat government sponsored cold blooded murder. The biggest problem with legalizing assisted suicide is that many crafty devils can find a way to commit murder and get away with it.

It was not murder, a judge ordered her feeding tube removed.

 

[Lursa]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

glad we agree on something, although, it seems contradictory to you here:

:doh

It's all been posted here many times.

Things like due process, privacy. The 14th Amendment & many precedents based on it create a large part of that 'foundation.'

 

[Lursa]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

You do. Everyone knows abortion is legal, and you also said that abortion is killing. You said it yourself, therefore, it follows, that we're only debating whether or not it should be illegal, and to what extent. I'm only arriving to conclusions, based on the premises you told me. Are those premises suddenly wrong? Are you wrong somewhere? hmm.

What are you asking here?

If it's about legal aspects...how would you make abortion illegal? The Constitution still protects women's rights.

 

[jdog21]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

:doh

It's all been posted here many times.

Things like due process, privacy. The 14th Amendment & many precedents based on it create a large part of that 'foundation.'

I found many people who are pro choice also believe in restricting guns, one argument presented is that mentally ill people should have their right to buy and own a gun removed, but that would violate those same things in the constitution, due process, privacy, doctor & patient confidentiality, the 14th amendment ect. So can one believe in pro choice and also hold that position on mentally ill gun owners? I would think they are contradictory no?

 

[Lursa]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

I found many people who are pro choice also believe in restricting guns, one argument presented is that mentally ill people should have their right to buy and own a gun removed, but that would violate those same things in the constitution, due process, privacy, doctor & patient confidentiality, the 14th amendment ect. So can one believe in pro choice and also hold that position on mentally ill gun owners? I would think they are contradictory no?

Well you'd be very wrong about me since I am a very strong supporter of the 2A.

Next?

 

[Lutherf]

*Is assisted suicide murder?

Can a mod fix the title for me?


Assisted suicide is illegal in some states. Since people like to argue about the "legality" qualifier in the definition of murder, I would wonder how many pro-choicers would call someone who does assisted suicide a murderer, or how many of them would demonstrate with signs saying "assisted suicide is murder".

"Suicide" implies informed consent of the victim. A neonatal or prenatal infant can not provide such consent.

 

[jdog21]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Well you'd be very wrong about me since I am a very strong supporter of the 2A.

Next?

You could have said Yes or No

 

[marke]

It was not murder, a judge ordered her feeding tube removed.

Jawohl, Herr Goebbals!

 

[HonestJoe]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

You're just avoiding the question. Murder is 'Illegal killing" Assisted suicide is killing, and most states have ruled it illegal, therefore, how is it not murder? IT meets the pro-choicer listed criteria for murder, that they themselves have voiced.

On assisted suicide and murder, I can only repeat my initial answer in as simple terms as I can for you. Assisted suicide isn’t a single act by a single person but an entire area of different circumstances, events and individuals. That said, some actions involved in assisted suicide could fall under the definition of murder (even where assisted suicide is legal). Some of the actions involved in assisted suicide would be illegal but not be murder (that’s true of some of the actions involve in actual murder). That’s as close as you’re going to get to a “yes” from me because it is the definitively correct answer. Your question can’t be correctly answered with a simple “yes” or “no”.

Let’s be clear though; none of this has anything to do with the abortion debate and however your care to spin the semantics on the entirely separate (yet equally complex and emotive issue of assisted suicide) won’t magically create the gotcha you’re dreaming of on abortion.

 

[Sweden]

*Is assisted suicide murder?

Can a mod fix the title for me?


Assisted suicide is illegal in some states. Since people like to argue about the "legality" qualifier in the definition of murder, I would wonder how many pro-choicers would call someone who does assisted suicide a murderer, or how many of them would demonstrate with signs saying "assisted suicide is murder".

This thread is bedeviled with a false equivalence: that 'law' and 'ethics' are, somehow, the same thing. Not so. At different times and places men have made unjust and unethical laws. As everyone seems to be talking about the US we only need to reming outselves that within living memory there seriously ethically defective laws affecting 'black' people. There are separate ethical and legal considerations relating to assisted suicide and it is a mistake to expect them to coincide.

I guess that we old people are much, much more in favour of being able to chose when and how we will die, regardless of laws - mostly made by and for lawyers - than those for whom death is some remote eventuality.

 

[DarkWizard12]

This thread is bedeviled with a false equivalence: that 'law' and 'ethics' are, somehow, the same thing.

Then that's something the prochoice side should figure then, yes?

Not so. At different times and places men have made unjust and unethical laws. As everyone seems to be talking about the US we only need to reming outselves that within living memory there seriously ethically defective laws affecting 'black' people. There are separate ethical and legal considerations relating to assisted suicide and it is a mistake to expect them to coincide.

Do ethics not call for consistency? That's all I'm asking here. If abortion ISN'T murder, because it's legal, then that means assisted suicide is murder, because it's illegal. If consistency is required, and I believe it is, pro-choicers should drop the argument from legality, and argue on basis of ethics.

I guess that we old people are much, much more in favour of being able to chose when and how we will die, regardless of laws - mostly made by and for lawyers - than those for whom death is some remote eventuality.

That's wonderful, but doesn't address the OP in any way.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

On assisted suicide and murder, I can only repeat my initial answer in as simple terms as I can for you. Assisted suicide isn’t a single act by a single person but an entire area of different circumstances, events and individuals. That said, some actions involved in assisted suicide could fall under the definition of murder (even where assisted suicide is legal). Some of the actions involved in assisted suicide would be illegal but not be murder (that’s true of some of the actions involve in actual murder). That’s as close as you’re going to get to a “yes” from me because it is the definitively correct answer. Your question can’t be correctly answered with a simple “yes” or “no”.

Let’s be clear though; none of this has anything to do with the abortion debate and however your care to spin the semantics on the entirely separate (yet equally complex and emotive issue of assisted suicide) won’t magically create the gotcha you’re dreaming of on abortion.

That's where you're wrong. It was never a "gotcha" but rather, to point out an inconsistency among pro-choicers. You can't have one side arguing on the basis of ethics, and the other side arguing on the flimsy basis of legality. As you, yourself, have admitted, legality can be very complex and also, dynamic depending on what is being voted on. So to say "abortion isn't murder because murder is merely the illegal taking of life" merely sidesteps the problem, rather than addressing it directly. I am very happy that some, who i have argued vehemently against about abortion, have managed to see the inconsistency I pointed out.

 

[HonestJoe]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

That's where you're wrong. It was never a "gotcha" but rather, to point out an inconsistency among pro-choicers.

That is a gotcha. You wanted “pro-choicers” to agree that assisted suicide is murder so you could then say “You can’t object to abortion being called murder then!”.

So to say "abortion isn't murder because murder is merely the illegal taking of life" merely sidesteps the problem, rather than addressing it directly.

It isn’t meant to address the wider issue. That argument is only (correctly) used in direct response to people stating “abortion is murder”, misusing the implicit abhorrence of murder to present abortion as indefensible without any actual argument or debate. That statement is factually wrong and dishonest and so it’s perfectly reasonable to challenge it on that basis. You can’t have any kind of reasonable discussion about the actual issue without moving beyond all those flawed emotive slogans.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

That is a gotcha. You wanted “pro-choicers” to agree that assisted suicide is murder so you could then say “You can’t object to abortion being called murder then!”.

Um. If they agreed that assisted suicide is murder, there'd be no inconsistency. There wouldn't be a problem and I wouldn't have created this thread.

It isn’t meant to address the wider issue. That argument is only (correctly) used in direct response to people stating “abortion is murder”, misusing the implicit abhorrence of murder to present abortion as indefensible without any actual argument or debate. That statement is factually wrong and dishonest and so it’s perfectly reasonable to challenge it on that basis. You can’t have any kind of reasonable discussion about the actual issue without moving beyond all those flawed emotive slogans.

and your answer to the accusation is to sidestep it and not address abortion from an ethical point of view? sounds self-defeating then.

 

[HonestJoe]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Um. If they agreed that assisted suicide is murder, there'd be no inconsistency. There wouldn't be a problem and I wouldn't have created this thread.

I’ve no idea what your point is then. Whether someone says assisted suicide is or is not murder has no relation to whether they say abortion is or is not murder. It seems you were trying to create some kind of logical connection between the two.

and your answer to the accusation is to sidestep it and not address abortion from an ethical point of view? sounds self-defeating then.

What accusation? Simply asserting that abortion is murder is not an accusation. It implies an accusation, essentially that abortion, and thus anyone supporting it in any context, is morally indefensible but that position would require some kind of logical argument. That logical argument could (and should IMO) be made without using the word murder as the kind of emotive weapon that has no place in rational debate.

Absolutely nothing in this thread has added anything of substance to the abortion debate.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

I’ve no idea what your point is then. Whether someone says assisted suicide is or is not murder has no relation to whether they say abortion is or is not murder. It seems you were trying to create some kind of logical connection between the two.

Well, I'm not going to repeat myself. Go back to page one and read. I make it clear what the inconsistency and how they can fix it as well.

What accusation? Simply asserting that abortion is murder is not an accusation. It implies an accusation, essentially that abortion, and thus anyone supporting it in any context, is morally indefensible but that position would require some kind of logical argument. That logical argument could (and should IMO) be made without using the word murder as the kind of emotive weapon that has no place in rational debate.

Absolutely nothing in this thread has added anything of substance to the abortion debate.

That's your opinion. You don't speak for everyone.

Well sure, you can then break it down in degrees and you have manslaughter, but then we are going to get into the weeds of how each state defines it.

I am staunchly prochoice, but I get what the OP is saying. If we simply say abortion isn't murder because it is legal then to be consistent we have to call assisted suicide murder, at least in jurisdictions where it is illegal. And personally, I am a stickler for consistency in my arguments and political positions.

 

[HonestJoe]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Well, I'm not going to repeat myself. Go back to page one and read. I make it clear what the inconsistency and how they can fix it as well.

I think the problem is that there are some basic factual and logical errors in your initial proposition. As I’d already explained, murder isn’t only defined on the basis of its illegality and “assisted suicide” doesn’t describe a singular act but a whole range of things. Also, the phrase “abortion is murder!” isn’t intended literally, it is a hyperbolic slogan that is really just saying “abortion is bad and wrong!”. The whole thing just isn’t as simple or comparable as you’re trying to make out.

That's your opinion. You don't speak for everyone.

Nobody speaks for everyone (not even you). That doesn’t prevent me from believing whoever you’re quoting there is wrong.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

I think the problem is that there are some basic factual and logical errors in your initial proposition. As I’d already explained, murder isn’t only defined on the basis of its illegality and “assisted suicide” doesn’t describe a singular act but a whole range of things. Also, the phrase “abortion is murder!” isn’t intended literally, it is a hyperbolic slogan that is really just saying “abortion is bad and wrong!”. The whole thing just isn’t as simple or comparable as you’re trying to make out.

Then why don't pro-choicers bring up any other bases then? If legality isn't the sole basis, as you have said, for murder, then its legality is irrelevant to the abortion debate. Every pro-lifer knows abortion is legal and pro-choicers know that.

Nobody speaks for everyone (not even you). That doesn’t prevent me from believing whoever you’re quoting there is wrong.

I already dutifully acknowledged your opinion, and it is merely that.