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Is algebra an unnecessary stumbling block in US schools?

calamity said:
I did not realize the purpose of algebra until I began taking classes at the engineering college, where I had to solve real life problems by using algebra all the time. Teachers in HS do a terrible job of showing students the purpose of algebra. I agree.
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That is because most people don't need or want algebra so who cares?
 
Fruityfact said:
And that is why we should hold them back---so what if it is an "obstacle".
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They are not being held back and taught how to be a student when it matters... in 1st or 2nd grade. We all know from our kids the little rat bags that run around not doing anything and it gets worse and worse. By 5th or 6th grade it is EXTREMELY obvious who is a future failure. They need to be held back until they can actually pass. Just moving them ahead hurts them more than anything. Of course, it looks bad for a school and that is why politics is the worst thing to ever happen to education.
 
Bodhisattva said:
That is because most people don't need or want algebra so who cares?
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Anyone who needs to solve a problem for one or more unknowns. Simple stuff, like how many miscarriages are there in America if there are 4 million live births and 700 thousand abortions, when 15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.

I guess we can keep most of society ignorant and guessing. Easier to manipulate them that way.
 
calamity said:
Anyone who needs to solve a problem for one or more unknowns. Simple stuff, like how many miscarriages are there in America if there are 4 million live births and 700 thousand abortions, when 15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.

I guess we can keep most of society ignorant and guessing. Easier to manipulate them that way.
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Simple math can figure that out. No need for algebra.

Add 4,000,000 + 700,000 = 4,700,000

Then multiply by 0.15 = 705,000 miscarraiges.

Easy.

No need for algebra.

Sure, algebra's unnecessary...if one wants his kid to never have a chance to earn a college degree - much less a PhD - in any scientific field.
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Straw Man. Nobody said that algebra would never be taught. It can be an elective. Those that want or need it can take it. Your argument is as incorrect as saying that everybody needs to take artistic painting because those that ever want to become painters need it. Ridiculous.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Simple math can figure that out. No need for algebra.

Add 4,000,000 + 700,000 = 4,700,000

Then multiply by 0.15 = 705,000 miscarraiges.

Easy.

No need for algebra.
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Wrong. The number is 828,924.

And, if you knew your algebra, you would know how I came up with that answer.

Hint: you set up 2 equations with 2 unknowns: number of miscarriages and total number of pregnancies.
 
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radcen said:
The title of the article is the question.
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Algebra was the only class I consistently did poorly in as a kid. I hated it. But I use it now and not at work. I use it for all kinds of things. Hell no. Someone is just crying because they didn't do well or their kid didn't and they can't help their kid.

Get on google and teach yourself. Algebra is important. What's next? Spelling tests hurt our kids feelings?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Simple math can figure that out. No need for algebra.

Add 4,000,000 + 700,000 = 4,700,000

Then multiply by 0.15 = 705,000 miscarraiges.

Easy.

No need for algebra.



Straw Man. Nobody said that algebra would never be taught. It can be an elective. Those that want or need it can take it. Your argument is as incorrect as saying that everybody needs to take artistic painting because those that ever want to become painters need it. Ridiculous.
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Wrong. If there were 4.7 million pregnacies that did not result in a miscarriage then 4.7 million must be only 85% of the total pregnancies given a miscarriage rate of 15%. ;)
 
blackjack50 said:
Algebra was the only class I consistently did poorly in as a kid. I hated it. But I use it now and not at work. I use it for all kinds of things. Hell no. Someone is just crying because they didn't do well or their kid didn't and they can't help their kid.

Get on google and teach yourself. Algebra is important. What's next? Spelling tests hurt our kids feelings?
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Too late. I have heard that said before.

Seriously.
 
radcen said:
Too late. I have heard that said before.

Seriously.
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Well let me ask...because I may have missed it:

Do you think it is an unnecessary stumbling block? Or do you think people are complaining because it is tough and they are cry babies?
 
blackjack50 said:
Well let me ask...because I may have missed it:

Do you think it is an unnecessary stumbling block? Or do you think people are complaining because it is tough and they are cry babies?
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There are some things in advanced math that really are unnecessary for whatever field a person is training for, but for the most part I think people are just whining.

Like you, I struggle greatly with algebra. It's so arbitrary and abstract to me. But once I finally got past it and went on to trig, that made perfect sense. I get trig. Trig is "real".

Having said that, I do see the value in learning algebra.
 
Basic algebra is useless but even it high school it went beyond anything I've ever used. We sweat teaching algebra when students don't understand basic arithmetic.

I got a report that showed a list of about forty two-digit numbers which were totalled. The total was a two-digit number. I handed it back and said, "This is wrong." "How do you know? You didn't have time to add them up." Forty two-digit numbers with a two-digit total doesn't have to be calculated to see that it's wrong.

I got another report of the value of stolen autos by month. For ten months there were nine months that were pretty close and one that was out by a factor of ten. I said we needed an explanation for that month and got, "Why?" The answer was that two high school kids stole a train that had been left with the engine running. It was counted as a stolen vehicle. Yes, we recovered the train by following the tracks.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Wrong. If there were 4.7 million pregnacies that did not result in a miscarriage then 4.7 million must be only 85% of the total pregnancies given a miscarriage rate of 15%. ;)
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I love how the guy advocating the removal of algebra from HS curricula can't solve a basic algebra problem. It's so perfect.

Be even better if he turns out to be a HS Algebra teacher. :)
 
calamity said:
I love how the guy advocating the removal of algebra from HS curricula can't solve a basic algebra problem. It's so perfect.

Be even better if he turns out to be a HS Algebra teacher. :)
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Solving for the unknown is far more difficult when you can't even recognize the (given) knowns. ;)
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Solving for the unknown is far more difficult when you can't even recognize the (given) knowns. ;)
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It's amazing how quickly he jumped on the wrong answer. "Easy! Just blah blah blah..." :lol:
 
calamity said:
Wrong. The number is 828,924.

And, if you knew your algebra, you would know how I came up with that answer.

Hint: you set up 2 equations with 2 unknowns: number of miscarriages and total number of pregnancies.
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show your work
want to see your algebraic process
 
justabubba said:
show your work
want to see your algebraic process
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lol...I had a hunch that would be coming. :)

calamity said:
...

I always suspected that natural miscarriages outnumbered abortions. I have never seen hard numbers on that. I think the official number is 15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.

Each year there are approximately 4 million births in the U.S. ...

U.S. birth rates, population growth, and the environment - SUSPS
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OK,
Births + Abortions + Miscarriages = Total Pregnancies; 15% end in miscarriage.

Simple math:
4M + 700K + X = T; X = .15T
4.7M + X = 6.67X
4.7M/5.67 = X ----> 830K miscarriages approx.

I guess I was right.
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ttwtt78640 said:
Wrong. If there were 4.7 million pregnacies that did not result in a miscarriage then 4.7 million must be only 85% of the total pregnancies given a miscarriage rate of 15%. ;)
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Yeah. I realized that later but you can still do it with basic math.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Solving for the unknown is far more difficult when you can't even recognize the (given) knowns. ;)
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I can recognize them I simply did it too fast and didn't pay attention to my work because I am doing other things too... also goes to show that algebra really isn't that important in average person's lives. How often are people trying to figure out the number of miscarraiges per pregnancy's?
 
calamity said:
I love how the guy advocating the removal of algebra from HS curricula can't solve a basic algebra problem. It's so perfect.

Be even better if he turns out to be a HS Algebra teacher. :)
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High school geography and history teacher although I am a qualified science teacher too... just haven't taught science in 15 years.
 
radcen said:
There are some things in advanced math that really are unnecessary for whatever field a person is training for, but for the most part I think people are just whining.

Like you, I struggle greatly with algebra. It's so arbitrary and abstract to me. But once I finally got past it and went on to trig, that made perfect sense. I get trig. Trig is "real".

Having said that, I do see the value in learning algebra.
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Very true. I mean you use a little bit of algebra in trig. I think one thing is that in high school you are giving kids building bLocks for the rest of their lives. And that includes college. So we still have to teach kids. Some teachers are just better than others. And some people complain.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Yeah. I realized that later but you can still do it with basic math.
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If you say so then it must be true. ;)

The question could easily be expresed as: 4.7 million is 85% of X, what is 15% of X. You stlil have to know that (algebra?) in order to do the correct "basic math".
 
If you say so then it must be true.
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It is true because it is true...

ttwtt78640 said:
The question could easily be expresed as: 4.7 million is 85% of X, what is 15% of X. You stlil have to know that (algebra?) in order to do the correct "basic math".
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What you guys aren't getting is that I never said that algebra is not useful or that it should not be taught at all. All you and calamity are doing is fishing with a Red Herring.

If I go to the store and want to buy something... need to fill up the fuel tank... need to pay my taxes... need to figure out how long it will take to do something... cook dinner... go to the doctor... drive my car... have children... raise children... be a husband... have a job and make money.... eat... sleep... have sex... play golf... pretty much 100% of my day, every day, for decade after decade... one does not need to use or even know how to use algebra.

debate that.... this other crap is nothing but a distraction.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I can recognize them I simply did it too fast and didn't pay attention to my work because I am doing other things too... also goes to show that algebra really isn't that important in average person's lives. How often are people trying to figure out the number of miscarraiges per pregnancy's?
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Using percentages (or other ratios) is not at all uncommon for average people.

Joe has 3 quarts of gasoline in his gas can. How much 2 cycle oil must Joe add to that gasoline can to achieve the recommended 40:1 mix for use in his chainsaw?

Fred is proposing a raise of the local sales tax from 5% to 7.5%. What is the rate of Fred's proposed tax increase?
 
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