Is algebra an unnecessary stumbling block in US schools?

[Bodi]

I'm a firm believer in pushing kids to their limits to see what they can achieve. If we let them bail on hard stuff before they even try it, we are dooming an entire generation into jobs as servants in the service industry. I never wanted to be a servant. But, I knew that very early in life. So, I did the work, and passed my math and science classes.

I understand your point. I also feel that your point is "old school". Not doing math that they don't need or won't use is not "failing". Teaching the vast majority of kids the things that they learn past the Freshman year is a waste for them and in a sense, we are failing them. We should be teaching them life skills. We should be teaching them basic things like interest rates and loans. How to invest. We should be teaching them skills that relate to all jobs, not specific ones. Specifically teaching planning, working independently or collaboratively, questioning, evaluating, making connections, etc. These skills bridge all jobs. You can teach these skills in a variety of ways that do not require algebra, dissecting an eyeball or cat (like we did, yuck), etc.

 

[Bodi]

It wasn't forced on me. I was taught by people who loved teaching. I graduated high school and went into the mines for four years and steel construction for the next 30. I remember Beowulf and the Tempest and The Importance of Being Earnest. I know how to apply the Pythagoras Theorem (ask me what (3-4-5 means). I know what mitochrondial DNA is. I know what the theory of relativity implies. All this stuff, this junk, was taught to me in high school by people who were sincere.

Nothing in there is required learning to have a successful life though... sounds like you just liked school and learning. Great.

The majority of students do it because it is required. The majority of students do not.

As an Ironworker, I was glad to know how to make a square corner but all the rest of it has made a bigger difference in my life.

Thank your wood or geometry teacher then...

 

[Bodi]

More importantly, with a solid HS education you were not limited. Had you found the mines not to your liking and laying iron did not lead to a satisfying career, you would have had options.

So very true... the real question is: What constitutes a solid HS education?

It doesn't have to be as it is... that just an Appeal to Tradition argument.

One of the main reasons so many kids dropped out of my engineering program in college was that they recieved poor training in the basic fundamentals of math and science back in high school. It's nearly impossible to get through college level Chemistry, Physics and Calculus when your algebra skills are lacking. Those kids were all doomed before they even got started.

...and how many kids want college level Chemistry, Physics and Calculus?

 

[calamity]

So very true... the real question is: What constitutes a solid HS education?

It doesn't have to be as it is... that just an Appeal to Tradition argument.



...and how many kids want college level Chemistry, Physics and Calculus?

Apparently not enough, judging by the dearth of American born engineers and scientists.

 

[Bodi]

Zero relevance?




The relevance starts at about 03:28

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Lots of things strengthen the brain...

 

[Excon]

Lots of things strengthen the brain...

They all have their strengths and lead to better problem solving.
That is why it is no of "zero relevance " to it.

You eliminate it and you purposely dumb down the future generations.
Not a wise move.

 

[Grand Mal]

Nothing in there is required learning to have a successful life though... sounds like you just liked school and learning. Great.

The majority of students do it because it is required. The majority of students do not.

Thank your wood or geometry teacher then...

None of that stuff is necessary for a successful life, no, but I'm glad I paid attention. I'm a critical audience, I'm not easily fooled or led, I'm known for creative problem-solving and I'm a tough opponent in Trivial Pursuit! The fact that the majority only learn that stuff because it's required isn't a reason to stop requiring it. Learning needs to be practiced, whether voluntarily or not. I don't think that making school easier or harder (without raising the bar overhead or dropping it on the floor) will make any difference in the pass-fail-dropout percentage numbers. It will make a difference in the ability of grads to think for themselves. High-school student performance numbers worldwide tell a story about that.
In a nutshell, high school isn't about job training or college prep- it's about learning to think, and everyone needs that.

 

[Bodi]

Apparently not enough, judging by the dearth of American born engineers and scientists.

Do people owe it to America to be engineers or scientists?

 

[Bodi]

They all have their strengths and lead to better problem solving.
That is why it is no of "zero relevance " to it.

You eliminate it and you purposely dumb down the future generations.
Not a wise move.

I have explained how the vast majority of people don't need it or apply it even if taught... Nothing is dumbed down if people are already not using it.

 

[calamity]

Do people owe it to America to be engineers or scientists?

No, but we owe it to kids to teach them the fundamentals of math and science so that when they get out of high school they can become engineers, if they choose. Not teaching them algebra by age-18 is a bit like strapping them with a handicap. But, I guess, we can always use another person with poor math skills to tend the greens at the local golf course.

 

[Bodi]

In a nutshell, high school isn't about job training or college prep- it's about learning to think, and everyone needs that.

This is what I have been stating... also that algebra is not the only way to learn logic. Most kids already learned that with addition, subtraction, multiplying and dividing.

 

[Bodi]

No, but we owe it to kids to teach them the fundamentals of math and science so that when they get out of high school they can become engineers, if they choose. Not teaching them algebra by age-18 is a bit like strapping them with a handicap. But, I guess, we can always use another person with poor math skills to tend the greens at the local golf course.

Who said that algebra would not be an option to learn for those that want it?

 

[Excon]

I have explained how the vast majority of people don't need it or apply it even if taught...

This says you didn't pay attention to the provided information, it didn't sink in, or maybe you are just purposely ignoring the fact that those skills lead to new ways of thinking (problem solving skills) that are beneficial to the person outside of the actual subject.

Nothing is dumbed down if people are already not using it.

Wrong.
It is dumbing them down.

 

[calamity]

Who said that algebra would not be an option to learn for those that want it?

What's wrong with making a year of it mandatory?

 

[Bodi]

What's wrong with making a year of it mandatory?

I have stated it repeatedly... because the vast majority of people that take it do not need it for their daily lives. They learn all the math they need by jr high.

It would be money and time better spent to teach students something that will directly impact their lives and this can be done in a variety of ways.

 

[Grand Mal]

I have stated it repeatedly... because the vast majority of people that take it do not need it for their daily lives. They learn all the math they need by jr high.

It would be money and time better spent to teach students something that will directly impact their lives and this can be done in a variety of ways.

I'll agree with you that geometry is far more useful, in a practical sense, than algebra. I struggled mightily with algebra and can't say I've ever used it since high school. Which, in my perverse, twisted logic, makes it a worthy endeavour. Difficult, esoteric and ultimately useless, who could ask for more from academia?

 

[Bodi]

I'll agree with you that geometry is far more useful, in a practical sense, than algebra. I struggled mightily with algebra and can't say I've ever used it since high school. Which, in my perverse, twisted logic, makes it a worthy endeavour. Difficult, esoteric and ultimately useless, who could ask for more from academia?

Geometry can be very valuable for people... that should remain mandatory.

 

[Carjosse]

I'll agree with you that geometry is far more useful, in a practical sense, than algebra. I struggled mightily with algebra and can't say I've ever used it since high school. Which, in my perverse, twisted logic, makes it a worthy endeavour. Difficult, esoteric and ultimately useless, who could ask for more from academia?

It is the exact opposite for me, geometry has been completely useless for me. But algebra has been required for almost everything I am doing for my degree and my future career.

 

[Carjosse]

Geometry can be very valuable for people... that should remain mandatory.

Why should it remain when algebra goes? Not only do you need basic algebra for geometry I have found geometry completely useless and algebra rather useful.

 

[Grand Mal]

It is the exact opposite for me, geometry has been completely useless for me. But algebra has been required for almost everything I am doing for my degree and my future career.

Geometry is very useful for a tradesman. Areas, volumes, perimeter angles, Pythagoras' Theorem, these things matter to people who do practical jobs.
Example- I've known men who were functionally illiterate who knew how to '3-4-5' a corner. They didn't know that 3 squared plus 4 squared equals 5 squared, they never heard of Pythagoras, but they knew that if you measure 3 feet down one leg, 4 feet down the other and 5 feet across between them (or whatever units) you'd have a square corner. And that matters.

 

[Bodi]

Why should it remain when algebra goes? Not only do you need basic algebra for geometry I have found geometry completely useless and algebra rather useful.

Basic geometry. Right angles, degrees, areas, volumes, triangles, etc. Basic basic basic stuff...

 

[Bodi]

Geometry is very useful for a tradesman. Areas, volumes, perimeter angles, Pythagoras' Theorem, these things matter to people who do practical jobs.
Example- I've known men who were functionally illiterate who knew how to '3-4-5' a corner. They didn't know that 3 squared plus 4 squared equals 5 squared, they never heard of Pythagoras, but they knew that if you measure 3 feet down one leg, 4 feet down the other and 5 feet across between them (or whatever units) you'd have a square corner. And that matters.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about and I got straight A's in maths... :lol:

 

[Bodi]

It is the exact opposite for me, geometry has been completely useless for me. But algebra has been required for almost everything I am doing for my degree and my future career.

And that is great and why it should be optional for those that want it... like physics, calculus, poetry, typing, chemistry, etc.

 

[Grand Mal]

I don't know what the hell you are talking about and I got straight A's in maths... :lol:

Go build a cabinet. Learn something useful.

 

[Carjosse]

Geometry is very useful for a tradesman. Areas, volumes, perimeter angles, Pythagoras' Theorem, these things matter to people who do practical jobs.
Example- I've known men who were functionally illiterate who knew how to '3-4-5' a corner. They didn't know that 3 squared plus 4 squared equals 5 squared, they never heard of Pythagoras, but they knew that if you measure 3 feet down one leg, 4 feet down the other and 5 feet across between them (or whatever units) you'd have a square corner. And that matters.

And is completely useless for a businessman, a data analyst does not need to know how to make a square corner. The only geometry I have used is calculating the area of a rectangle, triangle, and trapezoid on a graph. But almost everything I do relies on algebra. Which is why both should be taught.