Is Affirmative Action racist? (1 Viewer)

[TurtleDude]

Government coercion is never ideal, but it can often be required to counterbalance a prior act of wrongdoing.

Libertarians, for instance, support tort liability. If a tortfeasor commits a negligent act, the victim shouuld be restored to the position he would have been in had the tort never been committed. It is legitimate to use coercion to make the tortfeasor compensate the victim.

American apartheid was a tort writ large against the minorities of this country. The effects linger in minority communities to this day. It is legitimate to use coercion to remedy this massive injustice.

Even better is voluntary affirmative action. That's both morally correct and smart selection criteria. But you can't trust everybody to be smart and volunteer to see that, all else being equal, a minority has overcome more than a white person. But you can't trust everybody to be smart voluntarily, just like you can't trust a tortfeasor to voluntarily compensate his victim. Government coercion is necessary to remedy the injustice.

More idiocy. You don't punish innocent people for ANY reason. You don't punish the rich because some people are poor You don't punish good athletes because some people are unable to compete. and YOu don't punish a white guy because someone who had the similar skin color of him bought some black dude from another black dude 300 years ago

besides the welfare programs and the crime committed by blacks against whites have more than made up for things

ask your average black guy where they'd rather be-in NJ or even East LA or say in Equatorial Guinea or the Congo.

 

[TurtleDude]

Hey, TD, wake up! True libertarians oppose apartheid! A real, honest libertarian knows that the government owes compensation to the victims of its most heinous crimes.

I had nothing to do with apartheid so I have no duty to pay for it. I was mugged by a black so if anything I guess I should sue the NAACP? My relatives alive at the time all were union officers. And I have paid millions in taxes that go to support welfare programs

I owe nothing. I am owed plenty

 

[Bodi]

What you describe as "lose lose lose" is, in reality, a balancing of the scales to make up for past injustices to minorities and the lingering effects of those past injustices. The fact is, affirmative action is a necessary and justifiable infringement of liberty. That is, unless you can think of some better way to make up for generations of government-enforced racial discrimination.

Why should any person be passed over or not hired because of the past actions and injustices of others? Any person can exploit their own abilities and skills and succeed. Discrimanating against some in favor of others just compounds the problem and creates a whole new issue... should the children of a white man that did not get a better paying job to a black man get a better paying job over the black children when they grow up? When does personal responsibility enter into the equation?

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I owe nothing. I am owed plenty

Wow. Arrogance and entitlement much?

 

[TurtleDude]

Wow. Arrogance and entitlement much?

I guess you reacted to the poster rather than the post. No one who actually read what I said could have objectively come to that stupid a conclusion. WTF do I owe that demands I suffer for what happened to people 200 years ago?

 

[Guy Incognito]

Why should any person be passed over or not hired because of the past actions and injustices of others?

Is this a serious question? It sounds like something Stephen Colbert would say.

Any person can exploit their own abilities and skills and succeed.

Indeed. And some people-- white ones-- were the direct beneficiaries of a century of apartheid, and before than centuries of slavery, that allowed them to obtain an position of superiority unjustly. You can't just act like the Civil Rights Act undid all that damages. We're talking about centuries of lost income for families with minority members, we're talking about generations of miss opportunities and losses. The government stopped oppressing minorities eventually, but the people they oppressed for hundreds of years continued to hurt because of it long after the de jure oppression stopped. The effects linger to this day. Affirmative action doesn't go far enough to redress the injustice.

Discrimanating against some in favor of others just compounds the problem and creates a whole new issue... should the children of a white man that did not get a better paying job to a black man get a better paying job over the black children when they grow up? When does personal responsibility enter into the equation?

Personal responsibility is at the heart of the issue. White people are unjustly enriched. The common law does not allow for unjust enrichment. It is not wrong to preclude white people some opportunities to restore the victms whose oppression allowed for th white community to become unjustly enriched. It's all very logical, I don't see why you're having trouble following it.

 

[Bodi]

Government coercion is never ideal, but it can often be required to counterbalance a prior act of wrongdoing.

Then you advocate that the American government step into essentially every single facet of society... wrong doing has every every gender, every race and most religions on a national scale at some point in our history.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I guess you reacted to the poster rather than the post. No one who actually read what I said could have objectively come to that stupid a conclusion. WTF do I owe that demands I suffer for what happened to people 200 years ago?

No, I'm reacting to the post. That's an incredibly entitled and arrogant post. LOL. You "suffer". Oh my god. :lamo

 

[TurtleDude]

Is this a serious question? It sounds like something Stephen Colbert would say.



Indeed. And some people-- white ones-- were the direct beneficiaries of a century of apartheid, and before than centuries of slavery, that allowed them to obtain an position of superiority unjustly. You can't just act like the Civil Rights Act undid all that damages. We're talking about centuries of lost income for families with minority members, we're talking about generations of miss opportunities and losses. The government stopped oppressing minorities eventually, but the people they oppressed for hundreds of years continued to hurt because of it long after the de jure oppression stopped. The effects linger to this day. Affirmative action doesn't go far enough to redress the injustice.



Personal responsibility is at the heart of the issue. White people are unjustly enriched. The common law does not allow for unjust enrichment. It is not wrong to preclude white people some opportunities to restore the victms whose oppression allowed for th white community to become unjustly enriched. It's all very logical, I don't see why you're having trouble following it.

More idiocy. For your rants to have any semblance of justice you have to PROVE that every white passed over for a school admissions slot or a job PERSONALLY benefited unjustly. BEt you a buck you cannot come close to proving that.

You are engaging in both the idiocy of group rights and racism. I don't owe any black anything nor do most whites. Stop your racist guilt trip. Its disgusting.

 

[TurtleDude]

No, I'm reacting to the post. That's an incredibly entitled and arrogant post. LOL. You "suffer". Oh my god. :lamo

WTF do I owe someone because a guy who looked like their great great great great great grandfather sold that man to a guy who might have looked something like me.

Lets see, I am Scottish, we were oppressed by the Brits. I am German Lutheran-we were oppressed by the Austrians, I am German Jewish, we were oppressed by Christians, I am Swedish, I am sure they were oppressed by someone, I am French Huguenot and they were oppressed by French Papists.

Its time for people to stop making excuses for what happened 100s of years ago. I don't owe anyone anything for what happened years before I was born

 

[Guy Incognito]

Then you advocate that the American government step into essentially every single facet of society...

"Every facet of society" is a gross mischaracterization of my position.

wrong doing has every every gender, every race and most religions on a national scale at some point in our history.

Affirmative action does a remarkably good job at addressing all of those issues.

 

[AGENT J]

AA is racist through unintended consequences.

Employers fear being sued by minorities for being racist and they fear the government punishing them due to accusations of racism. It is lose lose lose... why? Because when they attempt to include under qualified minorities they exclude more qualified people who then turn around and sue for reverse discrimination.

so again AA/EO is NOT racist itself but because of cry baby groups out there that may sue on false premises some employers crack and CHOOSE to do something extra that is not required by AA/EO and has nothing to do with it.

Got it.

 

[Bodi]

No, I'm reacting to the post. That's an incredibly entitled and arrogant post. LOL. You "suffer". Oh my god. :lamo

What do you think that suffer means anyway? It means to be penalized or be at a disadvantage... calm down.

suf·fer   /ˈsʌfər/ Show Spelled[suhf-er] Show IPA
verb (used without object)
1. to undergo or feel pain or distress: The patient is still suffering.
2. to sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss: One's health suffers from overwork. The business suffers from lack of capital.
3. to undergo a penalty, as of death: The traitor was made to suffer on the gallows.
4. to endure pain, disability, death, etc., patiently or willingly.

Suffer | Define Suffer at Dictionary.com

 

[TurtleDude]

"Every facet of society" is a gross mischaracterization of my position.



Affirmative action does a remarkably good job at addressing all of those issues.

affirmative action punishes people who are innocent by rewarding people who were not victims

its a moronic solution to a non-existent problem

 

[TurtleDude]

so again AA/EO is NOT racist itself but because of cry baby groups out there that may sue on false premises some employers crack and CHOOSE to do something extra that is not required by AA/EO and has nothing to do with it.

Got it.

we get your willful blindness-the only AA that counts to you is one that has no problems

in other words a rare bird indeed

 

[ThePlayDrive]

What do you think that suffer means anyway?

Did I stutter? And who isn't calm?

 

[Bodi]

WTF do I owe someone because a guy who looked like their great great great great great grandfather sold that man to a guy who might have looked something like me.

Lets see, I am Scottish, we were oppressed by the Brits. I am German Lutheran-we were oppressed by the Austrians, I am German Jewish, we were oppressed by Christians, I am Swedish, I am sure they were oppressed by someone, I am French Huguenot and they were oppressed by French Papists.

Its time for people to stop making excuses for what happened 100s of years ago. I don't owe anyone anything for what happened years before I was born

I AM Scottish and I am still waiting for our lands to be rightfully returned...

...thankfully we married into English nobility somewhere back when and were on the Mayflower and we stole the natives land as payback.

 

[Bodi]

Did I stutter? And who isn't calm?

I can't discern stuttering but I can see a laughing emoticon after a fairly emotive "oh my god" exclamation that is making fun of "suffer" though...

 

[Bodi]

so again AA/EO is NOT racist itself but because of cry baby groups out there that may sue on false premises some employers crack and CHOOSE to do something extra that is not required by AA/EO and has nothing to do with it.

Got it.

So as long as no race is affected then it is not racist... got it.

What about all the times that race is involved? What then?

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I can't discern stuttering but I can see a laughing emoticon after a fairly emotive "oh my god" exclamation that is making fun of "suffer" though...

I can see the same thing.

 

[TurtleDude]

I AM Scottish and I am still waiting for our lands to be rightfully returned...

...thankfully we married into English nobility somewhere back when and were on the Mayflower and we stole the natives land as payback.

yeah we got even too. French Huguenots booted out of France by the papists fled to England where their maritime skills were quickly utilized by Sir Francis Drake and later privateers who made sinking French Ships a lucrative pastime. My Scandinavian ancestors raided Scotland, settled down and changed their name Andersen to Anderson and then fought the British and later oppressed the Irish. And one of my ancestors was William Henry Harrison who kicked ass and took names from the American Indians

 

[Bodi]

"Every facet of society" is a gross mischaracterization of my position.

It is intended to make a point. The point is that government intervention could likewise be applied to many many other "wrong doings"...

Affirmative action does a remarkably good job at addressing all of those issues.

...sure, at the expense of innocent people.

 

[Bodi]

I can see the same thing.

I have no idea what you are talking about... see the same thing in my writing? In TD's? About yourself?

 

[AGENT J]

we get your willful blindness-the only AA that counts to you is one that has no problems

in other words a rare bird indeed

not rare at all
and blindness? nope
just correcting inaccurate statements :shurg:

to me calling AA/EO racist/bigoted/discriminatory is no different then condemning all christians for the nutjobs that have bombed abortion clinics because they said it was gods work, or condemning all muslims for loony terrorist, or priests for the sick child molesters among their ranks r calling all gun owners vigilante cowboys etc etc

Its dishonest, void of reality and just has no logic behind it.

 

[AGENT J]

So as long as no race is affected then it is not racist... got it.

What about all the times that race is involved? What then?

"involved" defined involved.

AA/EO is to prevent discrimination against employees or applicants for employment, on the basis of "color, religion, sex, or national origin. Thats it, nothing else.

If people choose to practice something on top of that, thats on them and it is NOT AA/EO no matter what they TRY to call it.

AA/EO only requires OPPORTUNITY, CHANCE not force or giving