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Is Abbas Again Planning to Walk Away from Direct Negotiations?

I was asked a deceitful question and refused to play the game.

It was not a deceitful question. Let's just say that his question did not have the number 2,000 in it. Let's just say that he asked you for a list of countries that have endured as much terrorist attacks as Israel over the last 6 decades. You clearly stated that "many countries around the world see more serious incidents along their borders every year without launching massively destructive invasions." The fact is that no country in the world has seen such border disputes for over 6 decades. You could have dismissed his number and answered the question. But you didn't, because your statement was deceitful.


Here is an idea: how about you give an example of that alleged situation?

Are you serious? Alleged? You have all of history to select from. Let's just work off the top of my head. How about the U.S. 3,000 dead and we have invaded two nations over it. The body count is rising. How about World War I? An assasination in the Balkans sucks the entire world into conflict. How about the disputes between Georgia and Russia where Russia invaded? U.S. Marines have waited on the Cuban line for any excuse to cross it. These are simply off the top of my head. Go back into history and see the simple things that have ignited whole wars. And none of them come close to dealing with 60 years of getting rocketed etcetera. The fact is that no country on earth has allowed constant rocket attacks and terrorist attacks upon it without retaliation. Far less has been easily enough to retaliate and to go to war. Now......back your wild statement up and try to pretend that Israel has not shown considerable restraint over the last 60 years. You made the statement...... "many countries around the world see more serious incidents along their borders every year without launching massively destructive invasions." This is horribly wrong and serves as anti-Israeli rheotric only.


Speaking of...you didn't reply to my questioning you on how you can pretend that nothing Arab and Palestinian leads up to Israelis defending themselves, which you called "aggression."
 
Once more you ignore most of my post, including the part where I noted you ignoring most of the previous post.

I've answered the issue of preconditions to negotiations time and again in this thread. Preconditions to negotiations is exactly what the word "preconditions" means--a condition that is demanded before negotiations can proceed. Topics raised during negotiations are not preconditions to negotiations.

I've also explained the use of the prefix "re" in the English language. Re-established means that Israel had previously existed. It did. Hence in 1948 Israel was re-established. That the interval between Israel's ancient existence and its re-establishment was lengthy does not mean that it was not re-established.

I also noted that my request for comparable attacks in which nations did not resort to force does not mean I'm asking for identical situations. The reality is that Israel's restraint was enormous. In the end, it acted as any state would to defend itself against relentless bombardment.

Also, I never expected that others be held to higher standards. I only expect that Israel be judged by a standard consistent with how all other sovereign states are judged. As Israel's resorting to force (Operation Cast Lead) was not exceptional given the attacks against it, Israel should not reasonably have been expected to refrain from resorting to force when its repeated warnings were ignored by Hamas and no other state would likely have allowed itself to continue to be bombarded.

In short, I had addressed all the substantive issues.
 
It was not a deceitful question.

It was definitely a deceitful question.

You clearly stated that "many countries around the world see more serious incidents along their borders every year without launching massively destructive invasions." The fact is that no country in the world has seen such border disputes for over 6 decades. You could have dismissed his number and answered the question. But you didn't, because your statement was deceitful.

No my statement was 100% unadulterated truth. My response was to point out how don was asking a question that not only used misleading or false language, but was intended to illicit a response meant to mislead. The reason he asked for an identical situation is because I would either have to say "no" allowing him to claim that I am admitting Israel suffers like no other country and restrains itself like no other country or not answer allowing him to claim that I am dodging the issue because I cannot prove Israel does not have unique suffering.

That was the whole purpose of his question and it is deceitful on his part.

How about the U.S. 3,000 dead and we have invaded two nations over it. The body count is rising.

Are you serious? Comparing 9-11 to rocket attacks that over the past years have at best claimed a few dozen people is just so absurd I cannot even tell you why that is just so wrong.

How about World War I? An assasination in the Balkans sucks the entire world into conflict.

The assassination of a major member of the royal family of Austria-Hungary, an assassination that was orchestrated by Serbian intelligence. They invaded Serbia after some time of discussing it. Everything else was the result of a system of alliances where one country steps in to defend another.

How about the disputes between Georgia and Russia where Russia invaded?

Russian soldiers in South Ossetia as peacekeepers were killed by Georgian troops. The entire situation was the culmination of a series of incidents that involved people actually being killed. Yet another example of a more serious incident.

U.S. Marines have waited on the Cuban line for any excuse to cross it.

Yet they haven't.

Far less has been easily enough to retaliate and to go to war. Now......back your wild statement up and try to pretend that Israel has not shown considerable restraint over the last 60 years.

They have never shown considerable restraint. It is in fact consistent policy dating back to the Yishuv for them to not show restraint. Back then when some random Arab knifed a Jew the Haganah would massacre that Arab's hometown. Today a dozen or so rockets a day that don't even kill anyone somehow merits a war that kills a thousand people. Israel has consistently used disproportionate force as a matter of strategy.

Speaking of...you didn't reply to my questioning you on how you can pretend that nothing Arab and Palestinian leads up to Israelis defending themselves, which you called "aggression."

You made claims about the Suez War and the Six-Day War that were nothing more than cherry-picking. What you ignore is the Lavon Affair, the Israeli policy of intentionally provoking clashes with Syria, Israel preparing for an incursion into Syria while threatening to occupy Damascus, and how all of these led to the policies and statements you cite as evidence of Arab aggression.

I've answered the issue of preconditions to negotiations time and again in this thread. Preconditions to negotiations is exactly what the word "preconditions" means--a condition that is demanded before negotiations can proceed. Topics raised during negotiations are not preconditions to negotiations.

That is not even remotely the limit of what I said and you know it. You have failed to address my point about the Palestinian demand Israel accept the two-state solution before talks. You have failed to address my point about the international community pressuring both sides to make concessions on the settlement freeze. You have failed to address the fact that the Palestinians have not issued new preconditions despite Israel not even fully implementing the demanded settlement freeze.

Also, I never expected that others be held to higher standards. I only expect that Israel be judged by a standard consistent with how all other sovereign states are judged.

No you do not. You hold Israel to the lowest standard you need to still be on their side, while holding the rest of the world to normal standards.
 
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You have failed to address my point about the Palestinian demand Israel accept the two-state solution before talks.

Israel has on repeated occasions. From some of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s recent speeches:

From 7/8/2010:

The substance of peace is a solution of two states for two peoples, in which a de-militarized Palestinian state recognizes the Jewish State of Israel.

9/2/2010:

Just as you expect us to be ready to recognize a Palestinian state as the nation state of the Palestinian people, we expect you to be prepared to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

From 9/20/2010:

I recognized the Palestinians’ right to self-determination and sovereignty. They must finally recognize the Jewish people’s right to self determination and sovereignty.

And just as the Jewish state has granted Jews around the world the right to immigrate to Israel, a Palestinian state could decide to grant Palestinians around the world the right to immigrate to their state. But Palestinian refugees do not have a right to come to the Jewish state.


From 10/11/2010:

In my speech at Bar-Ilan University, I outlined the principles for a peace agreement with the Palestinians: a demilitarized Palestinian state which recognizes the state of the Jewish people and lives beside it in peace.

I believe that under the right conditions, the establishment of a Palestinian state could bring about peace, but if it is done in an irresponsible manner, the establishment of a Palestinian state could also be the cause for a worsening of the conflict and an increase in terror.


You have failed to address my point about the international community pressuring both sides to make concessions on the settlement freeze.

What concessions are the international community asking the Palestinians to provide in return for a renewal of the settlement freeze? In other words, what has the international community asked the Palestinians to give to Israel in return for a renewal of the freeze. Merely returning to talks is not a concession.

You have failed to address the fact that the Palestinians have not issued new preconditions despite Israel not even fully implementing the demanded settlement freeze.

The Palestinians have renewed their demand for their earlier precondition to talks, now making it an obstacle to a continuation of the talks.
 
You have failed to address my point about the Palestinian demand Israel accept the two-state solution before talks.

Israel has on repeated occasions. From some of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s recent speeches:

From 7/8/2010:

The substance of peace is a solution of two states for two peoples, in which a de-militarized Palestinian state recognizes the Jewish State of Israel.

From 9/2/2010:

Just as you expect us to be ready to recognize a Palestinian state as the nation state of the Palestinian people, we expect you to be prepared to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

From 9/20/2010:

I recognized the Palestinians’ right to self-determination and sovereignty. They must finally recognize the Jewish people’s right to self determination and sovereignty.

And just as the Jewish state has granted Jews around the world the right to immigrate to Israel, a Palestinian state could decide to grant Palestinians around the world the right to immigrate to their state. But Palestinian refugees do not have a right to come to the Jewish state.


From 10/11/2010:

In my speech at Bar-Ilan University, I outlined the principles for a peace agreement with the Palestinians: a demilitarized Palestinian state which recognizes the state of the Jewish people and lives beside it in peace.

I believe that under the right conditions, the establishment of a Palestinian state could bring about peace, but if it is done in an irresponsible manner, the establishment of a Palestinian state could also be the cause for a worsening of the conflict and an increase in terror.


You have failed to address my point about the international community pressuring both sides to make concessions on the settlement freeze.

What concessions are the international community asking the Palestinians to provide in return for a renewal of the settlement freeze? In other words, what has the international community asked the Palestinians to give to Israel in return for a renewal of the freeze. The Palestinians being asked to merely return to talks is not a concession. both parties should be talking without asking one another to make payment for their participation.

You have failed to address the fact that the Palestinians have not issued new preconditions despite Israel not even fully implementing the demanded settlement freeze.

The Palestinians have renewed their demand for their earlier precondition to talks, now making it an obstacle to a continuation of the talks.
 
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Of course, it should be noted that during his previous tenure in office, Prime Minister Netanyahu took a similarly uncompromising public stand. Yet, he concluded the Hebron Agreement (1997). Concrete actions, not pre-negotiation posturing will determine his actual positions. If his past stint in office and past precedent from Likud governments is representative, Palestinian good faith, flexibility, and reciprocity will be met with Israeli pragmatism.

Here is Netanyahu speaking in 2001:

“They asked me before the election if I’d honor [the Oslo accords],” Netanyahu said. “I said I would, but … I’m going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the ’67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I’m concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue.”

Smiling, Netanyahu then recalled how he forced former U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher to agree to let Israel alone determine which parts of the West Bank were to be defined as military zones. “They didn’t want to give me that letter,” Netanyahu said, “so I didn’t give them the Hebron agreement [the agreement giving Hebron back to the Palestinians]. I cut the cabinet meeting short and said, ‘I’m not signing.’ Only when the letter came, during that meeting, to me and to Arafat, did I ratify the Hebron agreement. Why is this important? Because from that moment on, I de facto put an end to the Oslo accords.”

Fibi Netanyahu - by Liel Leibovitz > Tablet Magazine - A New Read on Jewish Life

If anything, he was more uncompromising in private than he was in public. This would be an example of Israeli "pragmatism" during his previous tenure.
 
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If anything, he was more uncompromising in private than he was in public. This would be an example of Israeli "pragmatism" during his previous tenure.

That Prime Minister Netanyahu is a tough advocate for Israel's interests is well-established. Furthermore, as a sovereign state, Israel is not compelled to "take it or leave it" demands with respect to the dispute. Ultimately, diplomacy requires give and take. The final boundaries will need to be negotiated. Those boundaries will have to accommodate both the Palestinian desire for land on which to establish a state and Israel's security needs.
 
That Prime Minister Netanyahu is a tough advocate for Israel's interests is well-established. Furthermore, as a sovereign state, Israel is not compelled to "take it or leave it" demands with respect to the dispute. Ultimately, diplomacy requires give and take. The final boundaries will need to be negotiated. Those boundaries will have to accommodate both the Palestinian desire for land on which to establish a state and Israel's security needs.

I'm sure that's all indisputable, but I'm not sure it has anything to do with what I posted. Frankly, it sounds a lot like the kind of statement that government spokespersons often make when they're at pains to avoid saying anything at all. Of course Israel isn't obligated to do anything--except comply with international law, but there's no point in getting into that since it's not even on the table. It is worth noting, however, what the idea of a "pragmatic" approach means to Netanyahu. It means trumpeting Israeli concessions while quietly enlisting American muscle power to undermine them. This is indeed a practical approach, but only if the goal is to gut the negotiations of any substance and blame the other side for the results.
 
It is worth noting, however, what the idea of a "pragmatic" approach means to Netanyahu. It means trumpeting Israeli concessions while quietly enlisting American muscle power to undermine them. This is indeed a practical approach, but only if the goal is to gut the negotiations of any substance and blame the other side for the results.

I don't interpret things that way. There is nothing sacrosanct about the 1967 borders. Those were only demarcation lines. Final boundaries were supposed to be achieved through negotiations. As Israel seeks secure boundaries, it is only logical that Israel would seek to push things in a direction that would address that need even if it means shattering perceptions that might have arisen during the Oslo process.

In terms of the latest negotiating process, it is the Palestinians, not Prime Minister Netanyahu, who are refusing to continue the negotiations. That Israel unwisely offered terms for embracing the Palestinian precondition doesn't change that reality even if it muddies the picture. That the U.S. encouraged the Palestinians to publicly counter Israel's terms for accepting the Palestinian preconditions was immature, to say the least, and has undermined diplomacy. It merely encouraged posturing, which can only create incentives for the sides to harden their positions so as not to appear weak before the public.

Nevertheless, if one examines things, it is clear that the Palestinian demand for exact 1967 boundaries (which were flawed as those boundaries didn't address Israel's security needs) provides a glimpse that it is the Palestinians who have made little or no progress toward compromise. Israel should only affirm that boundaries, like all other core issues, will need to be devised in negotiations and that the negotiations should be carried forward without preconditions.

Finally, Prime Minister Netanyahu should reaffirm his commitment to arrive in Paris for the talks. When such time comes, he should actually go to Paris. If the Palestinians fail to show (very likely), it will be abundantly clear which party is choosing not to negotiate.
 
I don't interpret things that way. There is nothing sacrosanct about the 1967 borders. Those were only demarcation lines. Final boundaries were supposed to be achieved through negotiations. As Israel seeks secure boundaries, it is only logical that Israel would seek to push things in a direction that would address that need even if it means shattering perceptions that might have arisen during the Oslo process.

In terms of the latest negotiating process, it is the Palestinians, not Prime Minister Netanyahu, who are refusing to continue the negotiations. That Israel unwisely offered terms for embracing the Palestinian precondition doesn't change that reality even if it muddies the picture. That the U.S. encouraged the Palestinians to publicly counter Israel's terms for accepting the Palestinian preconditions was immature, to say the least, and has undermined diplomacy. It merely encouraged posturing, which can only create incentives for the sides to harden their positions so as not to appear weak before the public.

Nevertheless, if one examines things, it is clear that the Palestinian demand for exact 1967 boundaries (which were flawed as those boundaries didn't address Israel's security needs) provides a glimpse that it is the Palestinians who have made little or no progress toward compromise. Israel should only affirm that boundaries, like all other core issues, will need to be devised in negotiations and that the negotiations should be carried forward without preconditions.

Finally, Prime Minister Netanyahu should reaffirm his commitment to arrive in Paris for the talks. When such time comes, he should actually go to Paris. If the Palestinians fail to show (very likely), it will be abundantly clear which party is choosing not to negotiate.

The 1967 boundaries are a red herring in this case. The fact that Netanyahu may have characterized the agreement as a "galloping toward" the old boundaries in no way gives him the right to sabotage what was actually agreed. Nor for that matter does the provisional nature of a boundary imply the right to seize land, occupy it illegally, and characterize any remedy as some kind of concession. Despite all this, the Palestinians have been willing to let Israel keep most of what it's already taken. On that issue, as with so many others, they're nowhere near as adamant as someone like Netanyahu would have you believe.
 
The 1967 boundaries are a red herring in this case. The fact that Netanyahu may have characterized the agreement as a "galloping toward" the old boundaries in no way gives him the right to sabotage what was actually agreed.

It's my understanding that PM Netanyahu turned the trajectory away from 1967 borders. No Oslo process agreements stipulated that 1967 borders would define a Palestinian state. Instead, the language referred to the terms of UNSC Res. 242.

Despite all this, the Palestinians have been willing to let Israel keep most of what it's already taken. On that issue, as with so many others, they're nowhere near as adamant as someone like Netanyahu would have you believe.

If PLO Chief Yasser Abed Rabbo's statement that the Palestinians demand exact 1967 borders is accurate, the Palestinians are unwilling to concede any territory. Given that the armistice lines that formed the 1967 boundaries were not secure, Israel cannot and should not accept the demand.

In contrast, Israel is flexible on how its security needs in the Jordan Valley would be addressed. At the same time, although Israel is permitting construction within the boundaries of existing settlements, it is working to prevent the construction of new settlements. How effective those efforts are to prevent the construction of new settlements/outposts remains to be seen, but efforts are being made.
 
Israel has on repeated occasions. From some of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s recent speeches:

I am not sure if you got the point of what I was saying, but it was that the Palestinians gave acceptance of the two-state solution as a precondition to talks. You claim preconditions undermine talks and yet you are not getting your panties in a bunch over this precondition.

What concessions are the international community asking the Palestinians to provide in return for a renewal of the settlement freeze? In other words, what has the international community asked the Palestinians to give to Israel in return for a renewal of the freeze. Merely returning to talks is not a concession.

That is not what you were saying before. Here is what you said:

To be constructive, the international community should place intense pressure on the Palestinians to refrain from withdrawing from the negotiations. Instead, the international community is taking the opposite course, pressing Israel to make unilateral payment to the Palestinians. Needless to say, that only hardens Palestinian intransigence and complicates prospects for a peace agreement.

You were clearly saying the international community was not trying to get the Palestinians to give up the idea of a freeze. In fact, they were and are doing just that while at the same time trying to get Israel to renew the settlement freeze. Basically, the international community is trying to get one side to budge and they don't care what side does.

The Palestinians have renewed their demand for their earlier precondition to talks, now making it an obstacle to a continuation of the talks.

I am sorry, but are you suggesting that them demanding the freeze continue is a new precondition?
 
I am not sure if you got the point of what I was saying, but it was that the Palestinians gave acceptance of the two-state solution as a precondition to talks. You claim preconditions undermine talks and yet you are not getting your panties in a bunch over this precondition.

In general, they do. But in this particular instance, the Palestinians were seeking a clear signal that official Israeli policy in favor of a two-state solution had not changed. Seeking reaffirmation of longstanding policy is not necessarily destructive.

That is not what you were saying before. Here is what you said...

I continue to maintain that the international community should place intense pressure on the Palestinians to refrain from withdrawing from the negotiations. My reference to the international community's taking the opposite course, pressing Israel to make unilateral payment to the Palestinians, is not incorrect. For example, Haaretz reported:

Israel must extend its recently expired West Bank building moratorium if stalled peace talks with the Palestinian Authority can have any chance of resuming, the European Union's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said following a meeting with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Wednesday.

The Jerusalem Post reported:

U.S. President Barack Obama has requested that Israel extend the West Bank settlement construction moratorium by two months.

Rather than such a stance, both the EU and U.S. should be insisting strictly that the parties continue the negotiating process. That isn't what happened.

I am sorry, but are you suggesting that them demanding the freeze continue is a new precondition?

It's a renewal of an earlier precondition.
 
In general, they do. But in this particular instance, the Palestinians were seeking a clear signal that official Israeli policy in favor of a two-state solution had not changed. Seeking reaffirmation of longstanding policy is not necessarily destructive.

Oh, so basically it only undermines talks if you say it undermines talks. Otherwise it is perfectly ok. Gotcha.

I continue to maintain that the international community should place intense pressure on the Palestinians to refrain from withdrawing from the negotiations. My reference to the international community's taking the opposite course, pressing Israel to make unilateral payment to the Palestinians, is not incorrect.

That is not all I said and you cannot run from your own words here. You said "instead" of pressuring the Palestinians to refrain from withdrawing, which is clearly saying they were not pressuring them to stay in negotiations. They actually were and are. You were and are wrong.

It's a renewal of an earlier precondition.

It is not a new precondition. You were insisting there would be additional preconditions if this precondition is accepted. Noting that they want the precondition to continue being honored is not a new precondition.
 
Oh, so basically it only undermines talks if you say it undermines talks. Otherwise it is perfectly ok. Gotcha.

My stance on preconditions is clear. In general, they are harmful. But there is a difference between asking for a policy clarification and requesting substantive unilateral concessions.

That is not all I said and you cannot run from your own words here. You said "instead" of pressuring the Palestinians to refrain from withdrawing, which is clearly saying they were not pressuring them to stay in negotiations. They actually were and are. You were and are wrong.

I was right and I offered the articles showing two examples where pressure was being placed on Israel to renew the temporary settlement freeze. The existence of such requests amounts to asking Israel to pay the Palestinians' asking price for continuing negotiations.

It is not a new precondition. You were insisting there would be additional preconditions if this precondition is accepted. Noting that they want the precondition to continue being honored is not a new precondition.

To date, despite international requests, Israel has not accepted the precondition. Instead, it has requested that the Palestinians offer a concession in return for its granting the Palestinians the concession they are seeking. If the precondition is accepted without a reciprocal concession by the Palestinians, one can expect additional demands for preconditions down the road. Hopefully, Israel will not satisfy the Palestinians' precondition without receiving something substantive in return.
 
My stance on preconditions is clear. In general, they are harmful. But there is a difference between asking for a policy clarification and requesting substantive unilateral concessions.

What is so substantive about the settlement freeze? Demanding the two-state solution is far more substantive.

I was right and I offered the articles showing two examples where pressure was being placed on Israel to renew the temporary settlement freeze. The existence of such requests amounts to asking Israel to pay the Palestinians' asking price for continuing negotiations.

You are not right because you were saying this was going on instead of pressuring the Palestinians to continue negotiations without a freeze. Both sides were being pressured to change their position on the settlement freeze.

To date, despite international requests, Israel has not accepted the precondition. Instead, it has requested that the Palestinians offer a concession in return for its granting the Palestinians the concession they are seeking. If the precondition is accepted without a reciprocal concession by the Palestinians, one can expect additional demands for preconditions down the road. Hopefully, Israel will not satisfy the Palestinians' precondition without receiving something substantive in return.

You are dodging the issue now. You insist there will be new preconditions, despite the Palestinians entering negotiations even when this precondition was not fully honored by Israel. Simply insisting there will be more preconditions despite all evidence to the contrary is just revealing your own biased perspective. Like I said, if Israel keeps resisting a renewal of the freeze the Palestinians may begin demanding more preconditions, but that will be specifically because Israel refuses to continue honoring this precondition rather than because Israel honored it.
 
You are still dodging and refusing to back your deceitful statement up. Instead of backing it up, you required me to back up my defense. I did, and you deflected...

Are you serious? Comparing 9-11 to rocket attacks that over the past years have at best claimed a few dozen people is just so absurd I cannot even tell you why that is just so wrong.

Yes, I am serious. I gave you an example of what America has done over a single attack that killed 3,000 Americans. With two countries invaded and over a hundred thousand dead in our retaliation, one can easily see my point. And this history between Palestinans and Israelis didn't start a few years ago. It began over 60 years ago and has never stopped. Would America standby and allow the bigots and racists of the world talk it into accepting 60 years of it?

Stop dodging.

The assassination of a major member of the royal family of Austria-Hungary, an assassination that was orchestrated by Serbian intelligence. They invaded Serbia after some time of discussing it. Everything else was the result of a system of alliances where one country steps in to defend another.

One death ignited hundreds of millions in the following.

Stop dodging.

Russian soldiers in South Ossetia as peacekeepers were killed by Georgian troops. The entire situation was the culmination of a series of incidents that involved people actually being killed. Yet another example of a more serious incident.

A culmination of a series of events of incidents that involve people being killed is exactly what goes on between "Palestine" and Israel for the last 60 years. Attacking Israeli posts...kidnapping Israelis soldiers, terrorist attacks on crowded busses and bazaars, murdering them at Olympics, etc...... Perhaps if Russia was a Jewish nation you would forego a few facts to design their "evil" as well.

They have never shown considerable restraint.

I have stated enough times, if this was going on with any other country, "Palestine" would have been wiped off the map by now. Consider what America, Russia, China, or even France would have done by now, and then think about what I mean by restraint. 60 years, which involved aggression from all surrounding nations repeatedly and the development of hate, venom, and extremism, has shown Israel as having considerable restraint. A series of events was enough for you to "understand" the Russian invasion into Georgia. 60 years of Israel defending itself without rolling across the region brings you to defending its attackers?


You made claims about the Suez War and the Six-Day War that were nothing more than cherry-picking.

This from the guy who wants to pretend that Israel simply woke up and launched unprovoked attacks for no reason for 60 years. This history is for all to see. There's nothing left to be discovered. There's nothing hidden in the shadows. It's only when the publicly known facts come crashing down around people's unfair and deceitful criticism that they accuse others of "cherry picking." Cherry picking is what you did above in an attempt to dismiss the activity around the world, because it shows Israel's considerable restraint.

And by the way, you still have not backed up your deceitful declaration that "many countries around the world see more serious incidents along their borders every year without launching massively destructive invasions." You simply dodged having to answer for it. The fact remains that no country in the world sees anything like what Israel does and no country in the world receives as much criticism for anything it does.

What is it about Israel that has you so focused? I'm an honest fellow. I'll tell you all day that I could care less about a people who make their own beds and pretend that they have no responsibility to lay in it. Palestinians tapped out my sympathies a long time ago. No Arab or Persian has ever been their friends. You think Hezbollah cares about Palestinians? It took outsiders to offer them a nation of their own, but instead they followed the Arab destiny into misery and failure. They were killed by the thousands in Jordan and they were massacred by the thousands in Lebanon by Labanese and Syrians. Egyptians are constantly watching their borders to the east to ensure their rift raft doesn't infect them. Arabs radicalized themto fight their newest "holy War" against the Jewish nation in their self-righteous midst and left them to fester in failure. Only Palestinians have the power to stand up and move forward....but they won't. And despite all of this evidence that even their own fellow Muslims around them push them away, you pretend that Israel has the problem. I don't blame Israel for not trusting Palestinians. No one else in the region does.
 
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It's my understanding that PM Netanyahu turned the trajectory away from 1967 borders. No Oslo process agreements stipulated that 1967 borders would define a Palestinian state. Instead, the language referred to the terms of UNSC Res. 242.



If PLO Chief Yasser Abed Rabbo's statement that the Palestinians demand exact 1967 borders is accurate, the Palestinians are unwilling to concede any territory. Given that the armistice lines that formed the 1967 boundaries were not secure, Israel cannot and should not accept the demand.

In contrast, Israel is flexible on how its security needs in the Jordan Valley would be addressed. At the same time, although Israel is permitting construction within the boundaries of existing settlements, it is working to prevent the construction of new settlements. How effective those efforts are to prevent the construction of new settlements/outposts remains to be seen, but efforts are being made.

Turning them away from the 1967 borders may have been part of the effect, but that's beside the point. He did it not by negotiating but by subverting negotiations. The Palestinians did offer to let Israel keep half the occupied territories in 2000. Rabbo's statement has particularly to do with the offer to recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" in exchange for Israel's recognizing the 1967 borders. As you and others have explained, from Israel's point of view this would mean he was renouncing the right of return. It is a remarkable offer, but it says nothing about what the Palestinians would be willing to do otherwise.
 
What is so substantive about the settlement freeze?

The affected residents face a degraded standard of living e.g., if schools are not constructed to educate their children, etc.

You are not right because you were saying this was going on instead of pressuring the Palestinians to continue negotiations without a freeze. Both sides were being pressured to change their position on the settlement freeze.

I provided the links to several news articles backing my point.

You are dodging the issue now. You insist there will be new preconditions...

My argument is that there will be additional preconditions if Israel gives in. That has been the pattern in the past. Preconditions involving "good faith" prisoner releases were not the final preconditions. The demand concerning construction within the boundaries of existing settlements was made of no previous Israeli government. Now it is being made. Israel should ignore that demand. That issue, and others, should be addressed strictly at the negotiating table. If the Palestinians choose to avoid negotiations, that's their choice.
 
The Palestinians did offer to let Israel keep half the occupied territories in 2000.

I've tried to find a reference for this, but have found no source indicating that the Palestinians had ever offered to allow Israel to retain up to 50% of the West Bank/Gaza Strip. Such a percentage, to be honest, would preclude the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.
 
I've tried to find a reference for this, but have found no source indicating that the Palestinians had ever offered to allow Israel to retain up to 50% of the West Bank/Gaza Strip. Such a percentage, to be honest, would preclude the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

I want to know what he's talking about, too.
 
I've tried to find a reference for this, but have found no source indicating that the Palestinians had ever offered to allow Israel to retain up to 50% of the West Bank/Gaza Strip. Such a percentage, to be honest, would preclude the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

I believe what they offered was to let Israel to keep 50 percent of the settlement blocs:

The remarkable thing, in retrospect, is how flexible the Palestinians were in compromising these legitimate baseline positions. They were willing to concede Israeli retention of sizable settlement blocs in the territories as long as they received an exchange of land in Israel of equal size and value, and they agreed to Israeli sovereignty over large Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem--"the largest Jewish Jerusalem in the city's history," as Malley, the US negotiator, and Agha put it in The New York Review of Books.

Book reviews of Shattered Dreams: The Failure of the Peace Process in the Middle East; Politicide: Ariel Sharon's War against the Palestinians; and Middle East Illusions

The book review quoted above gives a good picture of the significant flexibility Arafat brought to the negotiations. He did however reject Israel's offer of 50-60 percent of the territory. My mistake, there.
 
Okay, apology accepted.
That was really quite the huge difference there.
 
You are still dodging and refusing to back your deceitful statement up.

I am not dodging because I had already cited examples to make my point.

Yes, I am serious. I gave you an example of what America has done over a single attack that killed 3,000 Americans. With two countries invaded and over a hundred thousand dead in our retaliation, one can easily see my point.

Is it your point that a terrorist attack killing 3,000 people in one fell swoop is comparable to no deaths in the months preceding Cast Lead?

And this history between Palestinans and Israelis didn't start a few years ago. It began over 60 years ago and has never stopped. Would America standby and allow the bigots and racists of the world talk it into accepting 60 years of it?

You see, one reason I didn't want to rehash the argument with don is that in fact Israel has not sat idly by even when many countries would. Rather, Israel has regularly launched operations inside Gaza in response to rocket attacks. Some are simply air raids or commando operations and then others are full-scale invasions or incursions. For instance, in 2008 Cast Lead was not the only major military operation launched by Israel. Another had actually been launched near the beginning of the year.

One death ignited hundreds of millions in the following.

If Hezbollah were to assassinate an Israeli Prime Minister or President what do you think Israel's response would be? Now maybe the consequences of a war would not be as destructive, but it certainly could be if the right ties were formed.

A culmination of a series of events of incidents that involve people being killed is exactly what goes on between "Palestine" and Israel for the last 60 years. Attacking Israeli posts...kidnapping Israelis soldiers, terrorist attacks on crowded busses and bazaars, murdering them at Olympics, etc...... Perhaps if Russia was a Jewish nation you would forego a few facts to design their "evil" as well.

You put decades of incidents together and it makes it sound a lot more serious.

I have stated enough times, if this was going on with any other country, "Palestine" would have been wiped off the map by now. Consider what America, Russia, China, or even France would have done by now, and then think about what I mean by restraint.

Let's go with that for a moment. I am sure you could go on and on about how Clinton was a ***** for responding to countless terror attacks resulting in dozens or hundreds of death with maybe a few cruise missile strikes of little to no affect. Perhaps we should consider how the bombing Pan Am 103 that resulted in over 200 casualties, most of them American citizens, did not led to Libya being wiped off the map or facing anything other than sanctions. Far from showing a lack of restraint the U.S. has shown considerable restraint when faced with direct attacks against it.

It's only when the publicly known facts come crashing down around people's unfair and deceitful criticism that they accuse others of "cherry picking."

Actually it is because you are cherry-picking information.

The fact remains that no country in the world sees anything like what Israel does and no country in the world receives as much criticism for anything it does.

That is just pathetically false. I don't know why there is so much philosemitism around here, but it is kind of suffocating.

What is it about Israel that has you so focused?

I am not focused on Israel. The problem is that I see a lot of people on this forum posting blatantly false information or ignoring inconvenient facts to push their agenda against Palestinians and/or justify their excessive admiration of Israel and/or Jews.

And despite all of this evidence that even their own fellow Muslims around them push them away, you pretend that Israel has the problem. I don't blame Israel for not trusting Palestinians. No one else in the region does.

Are you seriously arguing that because everyone hates them and refuses to trust them that it is therefore ok to hate them and consider them liars? It isn't true by the way about everyone in the region feeling that way, but that aside you seem to believe it would justify your own attitude.

The affected residents face a degraded standard of living e.g., if schools are not constructed to educate their children, etc.

Yet they will still be living better than most Palestinians. No doubt it will inconvenience some people, but it will not lead to any real loss for Israel or the settlements. Such a freeze does not prejudice the status of settlements in negotiations. Though I doubt it would happen, what if Israel agrees to turn over control of all of the West Bank to the Palestinians?

I provided the links to several news articles backing my point.

No, nothing you cited backs up the claim that pressure on Israel was happening instead of pressure on the Palestinians. That is what you claimed and you have failed to prove it. You have failed to prove it because the claim is false.

My argument is that there will be additional preconditions if Israel gives in.

An argument that has no basis in fact and is actually contradicted by the facts. The facts are that the Palestinians entered negotiations when that precondition was not fully satisfied.
 
I am not dodging because I had already cited examples to make my point.

No you did not. You do this all the time. You made a deceitful statement meant as anti-Israeli rhetoric and refused to back it up while insisting that it is accurate. You stated..."many countries around the world see more serious incidents along their borders every year without launching massively destructive invasions." Instead, you deflected and required me to back up that no country has ever allowed this type of activity without dealing with it quite abruptly and often enough through military force. I did this quite easily off the top of my head and you sought ways to dismiss them.

You have yet to illustrate another nation that sees more border incidents along their borders every year without defending itself. And until you do, you are dodging.


You put decades of incidents together and it makes it sound a lot more serious.

Oh really? You mean if you acknowledge that this has been going on constantly for 60 years it becomes more serious? Well, we wouldn;t want to do that, would we? Perhaps this is why Israeli haters prefer to isolate events that skew the complete truth. And let's be honest, most critics around the world are anti-Israeli rather than the professed pro-Palestinian. I will state this again, just a few attacks across the American border or anybody else's border and "Palestine" would have ceased to be a dream a long time ago. But by all means, after 60 years of allowing Palestinians to play their radical games and Arabs launching armies, accuse Israel of not being tolerant.
 
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