Iron Dome: To Fund or Not-To-Fund?

[Dans La Lune]

Do you support the US funding Israel's Iron Dome?

For the record, I do not. To paraphrase Sam Seder, there's a point at which defensive power becomes offensive power, as it shields you and your population from the accountability of your government's actions. If there is no substantive risk to the population, there is no stake in changing the behavior of the government, thus enabling the government to act with impunity. Which, in turn, since the US is funding this mechanism, makes the US fully complicit in Israel's regional aggression.

 

[Redress]

Do you support the US funding Israel's Iron Dome?

For the record, I do not. To paraphrase Sam Seder, there's a point at which defensive power becomes offensive power, as it shields you and your population from the accountability of your government's actions. If there is no substantive risk to the population, there is no stake in changing the behavior of the government, thus enabling the government to act with impunity. Which, in turn, since the US is funding this mechanism, makes the US fully complicit in Israel's regional aggression.

Yeah, increasing the likelihood of civilians being killed is definitely the way to teach Israel a lesson....

 

[Felis Leo]

I am against any and all further taxpayer money going to Israel for any reason, most especially military weaponry.

At this point, giving Israel more Iron Dome defense on our nickel is no different and no less obscene than if the United States had given Nazi Germany flak cannons at the American taxpayer's expense up till their declaration of war on us in 1941, saying that it was to protect their civilian population centers from cruelty of British air raids. That Israel's innocent civilians are being put at risk is entirely the fault of the Israeli government, and it should be on Israel's government to curb the behavior that goads other nations into attacking them, and not try to use their citizens as human shields to garner sympathy from the United States.

They are a mendacious, belligerent genocidal ethno-state that make rogue ethno-states like Apartheid Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa bastions of humanitarianism by comparison. As Israel is a nuclear-armed power, unfortunately military intervention to stop the genocide is not possible. However, they can and should be boycotted, divested from and sanctioned no less harshly than Apartheid South Africa, and ideally as much as Russia. Unlike South Africa and Russia, Israel is not self-sufficient in terms of providing for its population's food or fuel. They would collapse very quickly if they faced anything similar to what South Africa faced and certainly what Russia is facing.

 

[Silenthunder]

All aid to Israel should be stopped immediately.

 

[OrphanSlug]

I'm over it, there is no good outcome to the US being linked at the hip to Israel now that Netanyahu is determined to put a bullseye on the nation for generations to come.

 

[Helix]

80s Reagan reheated star wars leftovers have gone stale. Let's crash right into the 21st century and have edolf put up a force field that can block out the sun. Then he can charge us all rent for sunlight. Don't want to pay your bill? No sunlight for you! Woohoo, free market!

 

[bomberfox]

No more funding for Israel whatsoever. We must stop this mass death policy. We must stop this colonialist project.

 

[StillBallin75]

The Iron Dome exists to shield Israel from consequences. The consequences of its own warmongering, murderous, occupier, and theiving and colonizer behavior.

The sooner it gets defunded and collapses the better. Instead of funding this bullshit we should be sanctioning them.

 

[Felis Leo]

I'm over it, there is no good outcome to the US being linked at the hip to Israel now that Netanyahu is determined to put a bullseye on the nation for generations to come.

Unfortunately he represents Israeli popular political will right now. By polling, most Israeli citizens are some of the biggest solipsistic cry-bullies to have ever lived and who are happy to force Gazan children to starve to death out of vengeful, sadistic delight.

 

[maxparrish]

Do you support the US funding Israel's Iron Dome?

For the record, I do not. To paraphrase Sam Seder, there's a point at which defensive power becomes offensive power, as it shields you and your population from the accountability of your government's actions. If there is no substantive risk to the population, there is no stake in changing the behavior of the government, thus enabling the government to act with impunity. Which, in turn, since the US is funding this mechanism, makes the US fully complicit in Israel's regional aggression.

Without an effective Iron Dome then the law of unintended consequences may provide you a lesson in such rash actions; it might force Israel to use even greater and more devastating offensive force against Gazans or Iran, increasing the likihood of a wider Mideast war.

The failure to think ahead has always been the primary cause of self-created debacles.

 

[Felis Leo]

Without an effective Iron Dome then the law of unintended consequences may provide you a lesson in such rash actions; it might force Israel to use even greater and more devastating offensive force against Gazans or Iran, increasing the likihood of a wider Mideast war.

The failure to think ahead has always been the primary cause of self-created debacles.

But that grants the premise that the Israelis are so utterly horrible and bloody minded that our military aid is a moderating force...while they use the same military aid to murder untold tens of thousands of civilians. I see no reason for America to continue giving Israel billions of dollars worth of free military aid at the taxpayer's expense on the presumption that they will behave in an even more horrible if we do not, because I do not want our taxpayer dollars going to arm a genocidal state for no benefit whatsoever*. It makes as much sense as a government offering to give school shooters bullet proof vests in the belief that the bulky vest will slow down the school shooter and prevent them from killing as many children.

*Like I said in a prior thread, at least when the French and the Belgians armed genocidal regimes in Africa, they got major economic concessions, precious resources and trade deals out of propping dictators and murderers up. What does the United States get? Anything beyond data for our military contractors from the Israelis about how well our weapons work, while they use Gaza as a human proving ground?

 

[maxparrish]

But that grants the premise that the Israelis are so utterly horrible and bloody minded that our military aid is a moderating force...while they use the same military aid to murder untold tens of thousands of civilians. I see no reason for America to continue giving Israel billions of dollars worth of free military aid at the taxpayer's expense on the presumption that they will behave in an even more horrible if we do not, because I do not want our taxpayer dollars going to arm a genocidal state for no benefit whatsoever*. It makes as much sense as a government offering to give school shooters bullet proof vests in the belief that the bulky vest will slow down the school shooter and prevent them from killing as many children.

*Like I said in a prior thread, at least when the French and the Belgians armed genocidal regimes in Africa, they got major economic concessions, precious resources and trade deals out of propping dictators and murderers up. What does the United States get? Anything beyond data for our military contractors from the Israelis about how well our weapons work, while they use Gaza as a human proving ground?

More narrowly, it only grants the premise that our purely defensive military aid moderates the need and reason for offensive military forces to make war upon Hamas and Iran, which in turn are the cause the death of innocent civilians.

Had the original poster opposed the far more consequential OFFENSIVE military aid provided to Israel (F35s, for example), the cause of civilian death, it would make greater sense.

And had the poster suggested we cease aiding Israel's offensive capability I might have actually agreed. But I suspect the premise of his comment was a desire for retaliation, the killing of Israeli civilians to discourage Israeli violence.

For my part, if one could supply Israel nothing but defensive weapons and deny offensive weapons, that would more likely secure peace than the reverse.

 

[Moi621]

Duh Uh !
Funding Israel's missile defense system is funding America's too!
End: Duh-Uh

 

[anatta]

Iran threw a lot of missiles at Israel. Hezbollah as well before Israel pounded their launchers. If Israel need funding -OK.

The difference in providing such to Ukraine is that Iran is an irrational actor - or at least has to be treated as such
Other things like the long sordid history of NATO expansion as well..but i digress

 

[The Brad Dad]

Do you support the US funding Israel's Iron Dome?

For the record, I do not. To paraphrase Sam Seder, there's a point at which defensive power becomes offensive power, as it shields you and your population from the accountability of your government's actions. If there is no substantive risk to the population, there is no stake in changing the behavior of the government, thus enabling the government to act with impunity. Which, in turn, since the US is funding this mechanism, makes the US fully complicit in Israel's regional aggression.

No. I'm unclear why we need to fund the lil' democracy that could. They've final solution'd the Palestinians, and we were told the raid on Iran was an amazing success so no more threats. Sounds to me like Israel just doesn't need our training wheels anymore. Time to cut them loose.

 

[Felis Leo]

Duh Uh !
Funding Israel's missile defense system is funding America's too!
End: Duh-Uh

What does that even mean?

 

[Moi621]

What does that even mean?

I would not expect YOU to . . .

ttfn

 

[Decypher]

Iran threw a lot of missiles at Israel. Hezbollah as well before Israel pounded their launchers. If Israel need funding -OK.

The difference in providing such to Ukraine is that Iran is an irrational actor - or at least has to be treated as such
Other things like the long sordid history of NATO expansion as well..but i digress

Well that’s convenient for you.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Yeah, increasing the likelihood of civilians being killed is definitely the way to teach Israel a lesson....

Civilian accountability in government foundational to democracy.

They can fund their own defense. Perhaps it will cost them the universal healthcare they enjoy, and America does not.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Without an effective Iron Dome then the law of unintended consequences may provide you a lesson in such rash actions; it might force Israel to use even greater and more devastating offensive force against Gazans or Iran, increasing the likihood of a wider Mideast war.

The failure to think ahead has always been the primary cause of self-created debacles.

Israeli leaders have said they'd have been unable to facilitate the Gaza genocide without America's full support. The Zionist project doesn't exist without America's blessing.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Unfortunately he represents Israeli popular political will right now. By polling, most Israeli citizens are some of the biggest solipsistic cry-bullies to have ever lived and who are happy to force Gazan children to starve to death out of vengeful, sadistic delight.

I tend to agree, but would have likely phrased it as "unfortunately Netanyahu represented the popular right wing political will in charge." Sources are all over the place on this but Netanyahu seems to have less than half approval ratings overall but as you said is popular with the ideology in charge these days.

There is also another truth you are hinting at.

Israel being surrounded by their enemies for this long, while engaging in campaign after campaign to maximize their "settlements" by minimizing others, has ensured an ideology that passively, if not directly, accepts the whole sale killing of people in Gaza (and elsewhere.) Via military engagement, via starvation, via lack of access to medical care, whatever else the clear intention is to turn Gaza into their next settlement once everyone else is moved out or killed.

Ultimately the point of my post, we should not be linked to that. Something that has such international condemnation to the point that we've imported that political fight internally to this nation.

It is a sad and pathetic joke, and I'm over the US being linked to that shit show over there.

 

[Jason Warfield]

Without an effective Iron Dome then the law of unintended consequences may provide you a lesson in such rash actions; it might force Israel to use even greater and more devastating offensive force against Gazans or Iran, increasing the likihood of a wider Mideast war.

The failure to think ahead has always been the primary cause of self-created debacles.

That is what they are already doing, "...Israel to use even greater and more devastating offensive force against Gazans or Iran, increasing the likihood of a wider Mideast war."

 

[hecatmoggie]

some funding but Israel needs to listen closely to what the USA says and asks of them if we're paying $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

stop listening? take away the $$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[cpwill]

At this point, giving Israel more Iron Dome defense on our nickel is no different and no less obscene than if the United States had given Nazi Germany flak cannons

Respectfully, this comparison is disconnected from reality, and you discredit and delegitimize your other critiques when you use it.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah, increasing the likelihood of civilians being killed is definitely the way to teach Israel a lesson....

Enabling Israel to slaughter civilians across the region without facing the consequences of such is unlikely to make them change their behavior.