Iraq - Better or Worse Since 2003?

[MSgt]

This encapulates why progress has been slower than some want to see....


"The lull followed a night of violence during which gunmen stormed a power station and killed Shiite brick factory workers while they slept in separate attacks that killed at least 19 people in Baghdad's southeastern suburbs."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iraq;_ylt=Ap9NOCZ.jZFiEUC50_6VxsKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Of all the targets in Iraq, they hit factory workers in there sleep.

 

[MSgt]

More progress...

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The Iraqi interior minister said Tuesday that authorities had foiled an al-Qaida plot that would have put hundreds of its men at critical guard posts around Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone, home to the U.S. and other foreign embassies as well as the Iraqi government.

A senior Defense Ministry official said the 421 al-Qaida fighters were actually recruited to storm the U.S. and British embassies and take hostages. Several ranking Defense Ministry officials have been jailed in the plot, the official said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.

Interior Minister Bayan Jabr, in an interview with The Associated Press, said the 421 al-Qaida recruits were one bureaucrat's signature away from acceptance into an Iraqi army battalion whose job is to control the gates and main squares in the Green Zone. The plot was discovered three weeks ago.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060314...OdTVkGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-

No doubt Al-Queda is reeling from this blow.

 

[G-Man]

More progress...

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The Iraqi interior minister said Tuesday that authorities had foiled an al-Qaida plot that would have put hundreds of its men at critical guard posts around Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone, home to the U.S. and other foreign embassies as well as the Iraqi government.

A senior Defense Ministry official said the 421 al-Qaida fighters were actually recruited to storm the U.S. and British embassies and take hostages. Several ranking Defense Ministry officials have been jailed in the plot, the official said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.

Interior Minister Bayan Jabr, in an interview with The Associated Press, said the 421 al-Qaida recruits were one bureaucrat's signature away from acceptance into an Iraqi army battalion whose job is to control the gates and main squares in the Green Zone. The plot was discovered three weeks ago.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060314...OdTVkGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-

No doubt Al-Queda is reeling from this blow.

I wouldn't read too much into this interpretation Gy. Almost all the al-q fighers in Iraq are foreign arabs from neighbouring countries. I find it hard to believe no-one would have noticed 400+ of these type of guys joining the army and patrolling the green zone areas. The fact that the article says 'defence officials' have been jailed in relation to this would lead me to believe it was some sort of shia militia group that was trying to infiltrate the army, most probably members of M A Sadr's mehdi army. This group is committed to uniting Iraq as one and driving the US forces from 'their' land. They are an extremely dangerous group, however saying you have foiled an Al-Q plot always gets more media attention and praise.

 

[MSgt]

I wouldn't read too much into this interpretation Gy. Almost all the al-q fighers in Iraq are foreign arabs from neighbouring countries. I find it hard to believe no-one would have noticed 400+ of these type of guys joining the army and patrolling the green zone areas. The fact that the article says 'defence officials' have been jailed in relation to this would lead me to believe it was some sort of shia militia group that was trying to infiltrate the army, most probably members of M A Sadr's mehdi army. This group is committed to uniting Iraq as one and driving the US forces from 'their' land. They are an extremely dangerous group, however saying you have foiled an Al-Q plot always gets more media attention and praise.

Well, we really don't know what happened do we? The fact remains that the Iraqi government is functioning and facing forward. And success never get's celebrated - only our failures. Want proof? Look at any headline. This article will not be in one.

 

[cnredd]

I wouldn't read too much into this interpretation Gy. Almost all the al-q fighers in Iraq are foreign arabs from neighbouring countries. I find it hard to believe no-one would have noticed 400+ of these type of guys joining the army and patrolling the green zone areas. The fact that the article says 'defence officials' have been jailed in relation to this would lead me to believe it was some sort of shia militia group that was trying to infiltrate the army, most probably members of M A Sadr's mehdi army. This group is committed to uniting Iraq as one and driving the US forces from 'their' land. They are an extremely dangerous group, however saying you have foiled an Al-Q plot always gets more media attention and praise.

Illogical...

If Sadr truly wanted the US gone, he would know that the way to do that would be to get rid of the reasons for the US being there...namely, the foreign fighters...

It would be in his best interests to join us to help us complete this task quicker...thus, we'd leave earlier and he gets what he wants...

This is not the case...

 

[G-Man]

Illogical...

If Sadr truly wanted the US gone, he would know that the way to do that would be to get rid of the reasons for the US being there...namely, the foreign fighters...

It would be in his best interests to join us to help us complete this task quicker...thus, we'd leave earlier and he gets what he wants...

This is not the case...

ILLOGICAL CNREDD

Under the US occupation/iraqi govt Iraq is being split up - the Kurds are breaking away as we speak. There is further talk of a 3 way division.

Sadr wants Shia/Sunni/Kurds all to remain united as 'Iraqis' and is desperate to avoid a 3 way split - this is the reason keeping him out of the 'civil war' at the moment.

The US isn't there because of foreign fighters, there were non tolerated by Saddam prior to the invasion. The only way these terrorists will leave is if the US leaves and they follow us to continue the fight elsewhere (if its Iraq/Afghanistan/ Iran it doesn't matter to these guys - they'll just go wherever the US forces are).

Anyway, bearing in mind that Sadr is a terrorist (G W personally labelled the man a terrorist), a religious leader in control of a personal militia (how that fits in with democracy I don't know) and STILL currently wanted on a murder charge in Iraq I, find it interesting that you think he should work with us to get rid of terrorists. I thought we were in the middle east to get rid of guys like him??

 

[cnredd]

ILLOGICAL CNREDD

Under the US occupation/iraqi govt Iraq is being split up - the Kurds are breaking away as we speak. There is further talk of a 3 way division.

Sadr wants Shia/Sunni/Kurds all to remain united as 'Iraqis' and is desperate to avoid a 3 way split - this is the reason keeping him out of the 'civil war' at the moment.

The US isn't there because of foreign fighters, there were non tolerated by Saddam prior to the invasion. The only way these terrorists will leave is if the US leaves and they follow us to continue the fight elsewhere (if its Iraq/Afghanistan/ Iran it doesn't matter to these guys - they'll just go wherever the US forces are).

Anyway, bearing in mind that Sadr is a terrorist (G W personally labelled the man a terrorist), a religious leader in control of a personal militia (how that fits in with democracy I don't know) and STILL currently wanted on a murder charge in Iraq I, find it interesting that you think he should work with us to get rid of terrorists. I thought we were in the middle east to get rid of guys like him??

A) My name is not capitalized...

B) What part of the phrase "This is not the case" did you miss?...

I mentioned how he WOULD see things if his TRUE intentions were to just see the US leave...

Shall I say it again?...I believe I shall...

This is not the case...

 

[LeftyHenry]

At the moment, no it's not better just because going out for a walk can be risky. However in the near future Iraqis will be much better off because they will have basic freedoms.

 

[MSgt]

At the moment, no it's not better just because going out for a walk can be risky. However in the near future Iraqis will be much better off because they will have basic freedoms.

This, people, would be the optimism that more Americans should have.

 

[G-Man]

A) My name is not capitalized...

B) What part of the phrase "This is not the case" did you miss?...

I mentioned how he WOULD see things if his TRUE intentions were to just see the US leave...

Shall I say it again?...I believe I shall...

This is not the case...

Hmmm....so you seriously expect a man who has organised at least two uprisings against US forces to join together with the US (who he regularly says in his sermons are 'a legitimate target' for resistance forces) and force out the terrorists? Quite frankly that is laughable.

You know last year G W said this 'terrorist' would be arrested. I'm still waiting. Do you think he'll turn up in G-Bay? Somehow I think not...but then he's only responsible for the deaths of multiple US servicemen..why should we want to take action against him?

Tough on terror and the causes of terror? Installing a democracy in iraq?

Condoning private religious militias (who regularly turn out on the streets with their weapons) can in no way fit in with either of the above.

How can Iraq get better when these type of guys are allowed (3 years after the invasion) to do as they please?

 

[LeftyHenry]

This, people, would be the optimism that more Americans should have.

I think every sane American should know that eventually it's going to be afe place where people have freedoms, it's just the question of whether we should be using our tax dollars and risking our soldiers for this cause when it seems like the war's cause was less and less about terrorism and more and more about having a stronghold in the middle east. Also many Americans are becoming less and less patient.

 

[ProudAmerican]

when it seems like the war's cause was less and less about terrorism and more and more about having a stronghold in the middle east

I believe the two go hand in hand.

 

[LeftyHenry]

I believe the two go hand in hand.

Not completely. What I mean is that Iraq was picked out as the country to liberate not because it was packed with terrorists (obviously it is now, but wasn't before) like Iran, but because we would have the easiest time creating democracy there.

 

[akyron]

Not completely. What I mean is that Iraq was picked out as the country to liberate not because it was packed with terrorists (obviously it is now, but wasn't before) like Iran, but because we would have the easiest time creating democracy there.

Great jump off point on a map too!

 

[MSgt]

I think every sane American should know that eventually it's going to be afe place where people have freedoms, it's just the question of whether we should be using our tax dollars and risking our soldiers for this cause when it seems like the war's cause was less and less about terrorism and more and more about having a stronghold in the middle east. Also many Americans are becoming less and less patient.

They are one in the same.

 

[Room101]

Sadr and his army ants

Illogical...

If Sadr truly wanted the US gone, he would know that the way to do that would be to get rid of the reasons for the US being there...namely, the foreign fighters...

It would be in his best interests to join us to help us complete this task quicker...thus, we'd leave earlier and he gets what he wants...

This is not the case...

Regardless of what Sadr wants to do, he does not have the option of cooperating with the US to expell/eliminate the foreign fighters/insurgents. He feeds his power base on Islamic extremism. If he tells his well armed, militant followers that Allah wants them to help the western infidels fight against their Muslim brothers, the Sadr City rats will be picking his bones clean in short order.
When a queen ant outgrows her usefulness, her children eat her.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Not completely. What I mean is that Iraq was picked out as the country to liberate not because it was packed with terrorists (obviously it is now, but wasn't before) like Iran, but because we would have the easiest time creating democracy there.

And also to create a democracy that was loyale to the USA. But that seem be tricky to accomplish. Also democracy seem to be tricky because even after three months after the election there are no new goverment. But the big problem is that USA havn't replaced the stability under Saddam with a new stability.

 

[MSgt]

And also to create a democracy that was loyale to the USA. But that seem be tricky to accomplish. Also democracy seem to be tricky because even after three months after the election there are no new goverment. But the big problem is that USA havn't replaced the stability under Saddam with a new stability.

This is because we can only do so much. We can easily destroy a foreign military. We can easily keep the peace. However, it is a far greater difficulty to keep the peace between people who have hated each other through the centuries over religious feuding and bigotries and currently exist within the same borders. The two essential lessons learned from Pakistan are pertinent to Iraq.....

1) First, democracy faces an uphill struggle in tribal cultures where blood ties trump national interests.
2) Second, democracy has no worse enemy than corruption.

If one were to say that overcoming these things is impossible, one only needs to look to Turkey for a model of success.

 

[earthworm]

The Iraqi solution is to divide the country into three; one section for the Sunni, the second for the Shia, the third for the Kurd. The try to maintain Iraq an one nation is ludicrous.
Then a UN controlled corporation should take over the oil fields and distribute the profits to the 3 clans of people...

This should have been done after the Ottoman Empire was broken up. These people live in the year 1006, not 2006; it may take 1,000 years for them to catch up - if they want to.

Remember, Europe of the middle ages; there was no Italy, no Germany, only hundreds of little dukedoms, fiefdoms, war-lord-doms..
This is about what we have in "Iraq"...
The same in Afraghistan...and Sudan... and others...

Maybe we should have stayed out of Iraq - we are not miracle-makers- no one is.....

 

[MSgt]

The Iraqi solution is to divide the country into three; one section for the Sunni, the second for the Shia, the third for the Kurd. The try to maintain Iraq an one nation is ludicrous.
Then a UN controlled corporation should take over the oil fields and distribute the profits to the 3 clans of people...

This should have been done after the Ottoman Empire was broken up. These people live in the year 1006, not 2006; it may take 1,000 years for them to catch up - if they want to.

Remember, Europe of the middle ages; there was no Italy, no Germany, only hundreds of little dukedoms, fiefdoms, war-lord-doms..
This is about what we have in "Iraq"...
The same in Afraghistan...and Sudan... and others...

Maybe we should have stayed out of Iraq - we are not miracle-makers- no one is.....

We had to take Saddam out. The crap that followed........is the crap that followed. It is a near impossibility to approach a backwards culture with 21st century thinking. We are seeing this all over the Middle East. The Radical element and the elite are clutching onto the past with every bit of strength and death they can muster. Until these people finally say no more to their passed down traditions that do not work in the 21st century, they will forever feud over who's God is greater or who did what to who, a millennium ago.

For the militants and the radicals, fighting between sects is a time honored tradition. The last thing any of them want to see is a united Iraq where Sunni Muslims, Sunni Kurds, and Shi'ites live together under one government where human decency and basic human rights are celebrated in peace. It would be great if Iraq can rub their success into the faces of all those that slaughter for their "god," however, ultimately, it is up to them to succeed. A positive model of this type of society in the Arab or Persian world would countermind the oppression that exists in the other lands. Democracy and peaceful co-existence between religious sects is a threat to their systems of control (whether that control be militant or religious). Why else do you think the Kurds, who are doing just that within northern Iraq are targetted by terrorists every so often? These people do nothing to nobody, however, they are targetted. It is simple. Like the West and Israel, they are targetted for their success.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

This is because we can only do so much. We can easily destroy a foreign military. We can easily keep the peace. However, it is a far greater difficulty to keep the peace between people who have hated each other through the centuries over religious feuding and bigotries and currently exist within the same borders. The two essential lessons learned from Pakistan are pertinent to Iraq.....

1) First, democracy faces an uphill struggle in tribal cultures where blood ties trump national interests.
2) Second, democracy has no worse enemy than corruption.

If one were to say that overcoming these things is impossible, one only needs to look to Turkey for a model of success.

But at the same time you can do better and worse. Also if you do it badly from the start it get much more tougher. Like for example a couples of houndred carbombs can make people who dislike each other to start hate each other.

 

[MSgt]

But at the same time you can do better and worse. Also if you do it badly from the start it get much more tougher. Like for example a couples of houndred carbombs can make people who dislike each other to start hate each other.

Nothing we did caused this. We freed them and they behaved in the manner in which their culture demands. Iraq isn't isolated. This activity occurs in many Muslim nations and would occur in many more were it not for the militant rule of the bayonet either through dictatorship or religious fanaticism.

The success or failure of Iraq is in their hands. If they fail it will say more about this civilization than American might. Every religious zealot, fundamental Mullah, Persian eloite, and Arab elite is praying for a failure. A successful Iraq will damage their status with their people. We cannot make people, who have spent centuries feuding over religious myths, behave. Our concern was Saddam. Everything else was an obligation. We can only do so much with people who are not willing to stand up for themselves or wish to slaughter each other. The iraqi military and security forces are doing well. Better than most headlines will say. However, much like our "War on Terror," Iraqis are very much in a fight of attrition. They must endure the lumps as they outlast their enemies and Radical Islamists are very much their enemies too.

Wouldn't it be a profound and positive statement if the Muslims who condemn these terrorist acts in the Middle East, rioted in the streets against the true blaspemers of their religion instead of choosing to use this energy protesting cartoons or American retaliation to said terrorist acts?

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Nothing we did caused this. We freed them and they behaved in the manner in which their culture demands. Iraq isn't isolated. This activity occurs in many Muslim nations and would occur in many more were it not for the militant rule of the bayonet either through dictatorship or religious fanaticism.

The same could say for any American city. Let all police take two week of vacation. Then watch the result and say that it the natural behaviour of the people in that city…

The success or failure of Iraq is in their hands. If they fail it will say more about this civilization than American might. Every religious zealot, fundamental Mullah, Persian eloite, and Arab elite is praying for a failure. A successful Iraq will damage their status with their people. We cannot make people, who have spent centuries feuding over religious myths, behave. Our concern was Saddam. Everything else was an obligation. We can only do so much with people who are not willing to stand up for themselves or wish to slaughter each other. The iraqi military and security forces are doing well. Better than most headlines will say. However, much like our "War on Terror," Iraqis are very much in a fight of attrition. They must endure the lumps as they outlast their enemies and Radical Islamists are very much their enemies too.

Well most civilizations are filled with oppression and internal and external warfare in the recent history. Just look at USA that had apartheid to the 60’s, civil war and slavery only 150 years ago. One basic thing to not make the old mistake is that you have a stable ground to build the new society. That you need is a basic safety and protection of life and property. That was and is the task of the USA. Because you can’t expect that the Iraqis will create it from scratch in an instance.

Wouldn't it be a profound and positive statement if the Muslims who condemn these terrorist acts in the Middle East, rioted in the streets against the true blaspemers of their religion instead of choosing to use this energy protesting cartoons or American retaliation to said terrorist acts?

First of riots it not a very good thing. But yes it could be good with peace demonstration. But we can’t know if they have been any. Because I don’t think peaceful demonstrates that demonstrate for peace is not very newsworthy in western medias.

 

[MSgt]

The same could say for any American city. Let all police take two week of vacation. Then watch the result and say that it the natural behaviour of the people in that city…

You made my point. An American city acknowledges that the rule of law is a necessity. Furthermore, the governship recognizes the basic rights and human decency that is necessary to keep such laws.

Basic human rights and decency are not a common practice among the Arab and Persian governments. For them, rulership through a religious theocracy or from behind bayonets are very much the norm and has developed over the decades as a culture.

Well most civilizations are filled with oppression and internal and external warfare in the recent history. Just look at USA that had apartheid to the 60’s, civil war and slavery only 150 years ago. One basic thing to not make the old mistake is that you have a stable ground to build the new society. That you need is a basic safety and protection of life and property. That was and is the task of the USA. Because you can’t expect that the Iraqis will create it from scratch in an instance.

The growth of a civilization can be seen through histroy. In the Middle East, we only see stagnation. What has America and the western world achieved in the last 150 years? It's the difference between a diverse culture that faces forward and a culture fixed through a single dogmatic religion that faces backwards.

First of riots it not a very good thing. But yes it could be good with peace demonstration. But we can’t know if they have been any. Because I don’t think peaceful demonstrates that demonstrate for peace is not very newsworthy in western medias.

The media always paints the worse picture. It's what sells.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

You made my point. An American city acknowledges that the rule of law is a necessity. Furthermore, the governship recognizes the basic rights and human decency that is necessary to keep such laws.

Basic human rights and decency are not a common practice among the Arab and Persian governments. For them, rulership through a religious theocracy or from behind bayonets are very much the norm and has developed over the decades as a culture.

The growth of a civilization can be seen through histroy. In the Middle East, we only see stagnation. What has America and the western world achieved in the last 150 years? It's the difference between a diverse culture that faces forward and a culture fixed through a single dogmatic religion that faces backwards.

Well Iraq hade rule of law before the liberation. Of course it nothing near good because it was upheld by a dictatorship. But still they didn't have terrorist atacks and the level of crimes was lower.

Well if you look at recent history. You can see that the ME was liberated from the corrupte Osmanian (Osmanic) empire. But fell in the hands of western countries that gained indirect controll by supporting loyal goverment. So ME have small oppertunity to shape there own destiny.