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Iraq - Better or Worse Since 2003?

G-Man

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Almost three years after the end of the gulf war the situation in Iraq is still dire. Regardless of the initial decision to wage war has the situation improved or worsened in the intervening period?

Recent stories of beatings by British soldiers (which have resulted in the local Iraqi authorities ceasing all ties with the British soldiers), mass kidnappings (30 - YES 30 - a day according to the Brookings Institute - up from 10 a day last year) and govt. death squads, operating openly in full Iraqi police uniforms, hardly paint a picture of real progress (you could also add the govt. torture chamber discovered by US Marines).


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2048574,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2048574,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,185060,00.html

Add to this there is STILL no reliable electricity supply, no proper sewage and no security what sort of progress have we made?

Sure, there is a democratic govt. (formed almost entirely upon the notion of Shia's voting for Shia canditates and Sunnis doing likewise - hardly helping to integrate the two) but is this the be all and end all?? The Palestines now have a democratic govt. but look at all the trouble this is breeding. Future elections in Egypt will also undoubtedly lead to a mass vote (if not winning vote) for the Muslim Brotherhood movement.

Has the administration (US) done a good job since the end of the war or have we made serious mistakes with Iraq's progress?
 

cnredd

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G-Man said:
Almost three years after the end of the gulf war the situation in Iraq is still dire. Regardless of the initial decision to wage war has the situation improved or worsened in the intervening period?

Recent stories of beatings by British soldiers (which have resulted in the local Iraqi authorities ceasing all ties with the British soldiers), mass kidnappings (30 - YES 30 - a day according to the Brookings Institute - up from 10 a day last year) and govt. death squads, operating openly in full Iraqi police uniforms, hardly paint a picture of real progress (you could also add the govt. torture chamber discovered by US Marines).


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2048574,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2048574,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,185060,00.html

Add to this there is STILL no reliable electricity supply, no proper sewage and no security what sort of progress have we made?

Sure, there is a democratic govt. (formed almost entirely upon the notion of Shia's voting for Shia canditates and Sunnis doing likewise - hardly helping to integrate the two) but is this the be all and end all?? The Palestines now have a democratic govt. but look at all the trouble this is breeding. Future elections in Egypt will also undoubtedly lead to a mass vote (if not winning vote) for the Muslim Brotherhood movement.

Has the administration (US) done a good job since the end of the war or have we made serious mistakes with Iraq's progress?
Find me a major war torn country with a new government where everything was peachy keen in less than 4 years...

This is a prime example of the remote control ideology where if things aren't done by the time your pizza arrives, it must not be worth doing...

Where is your tirade on Bosnia?...The Sudan?...Haiti?...Chechnya?...East Timor?...Rwanda?...Mozambique?..
 

Conflict

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cnredd said:
Find me a major war torn country with a new government where everything was peachy keen in less than 4 years...

This is a prime example of the remote control ideology where if things aren't done by the time your pizza arrives, it must not be worth doing...

Where is your tirade on Bosnia?...The Sudan?...Haiti?...Chechnya?...East Timor?...Rwanda?...Mozambique?..
Pizza Delivery does little to support your claims. Your subjective references to democratic blunders do alot to expose your bias on this subject. None of them were worth doing either. You only see red.

There are greater things that exist in this world than partisan politics.

That's pragmatic.
 

Billo_Really

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I can anyone possibly be in favor of doing
this to another country that did nothing to them?



 

GarzaUK

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Nonsense G-Man everything is going swell in Iraq....:roll: :smile:

Your just a liberal panderer who hates our country and hates our troops who is in denial. wah wah wah. :smile:
 

G-Man

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cnredd said:
Find me a major war torn country with a new government where everything was peachy keen in less than 4 years...

This is a prime example of the remote control ideology where if things aren't done by the time your pizza arrives, it must not be worth doing...

Where is your tirade on Bosnia?...The Sudan?...Haiti?...Chechnya?...East Timor?...Rwanda?...Mozambique?..
No-one said it should be 'peachy' in less than four years..I'm just trying to establish what sort of progress we have made. This is NOT an arguement about the rights or wrongs of the war but it just seems to me that we have replaced a brutal/murderous anti-US regime with an equally brutal/murderous regime - but one which is slightly more pro-US. Religious bigotry is now one of the most important factors in a country where (before the war) Sunni and Shia lived in peace - without generally making a distinction between the two.

On a seperate note, can you tell me about a country which has gone backwards several years after the end of military action?? No-one expected a miracle but I'd like to see some progress.

Are the living conditons any better after three years, what about the incredible unemployment rate, no security, no public services where is the evidence of progress??

This IS a job which is worth doing right, I just don't think the present administration has any idea about how to achieve this. How many years/dollars do you suggest they need cnredd? I seem to remember being told this would take 'months not years' yet several years down the line the place is a mess (and full of terrorists).

As regards Bosnia, Sudan etc perhaps you should start another thread asking why the US govt. won't stop the genocide taking place in Sudan...I'd certainly back any military action to stop it but I guess Sudan ain't important to the Whitehouse.
 

justone

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I think G-man does not exactly come from a party view point, and I don't think he would accept - this is because of Bush, or everything is fine answers.

I feel, except for some details, I myself would sign under G-man's posts at this moment.

I don't have my answers, yet. I think it would be really interesting to disscus G-man's questions, if it was ever possible to get know-everything
party knignts to put aside their party slogans for a while.
 

Hoot

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G Man said:
No-one said it should be 'peachy' in less than four years..
I don't agree with this statement at all. Everything Bush and Cheney and the entire administration told us as a prelude to this war said it would be a piece of cake.

Even Rumsfield is on record as saying things like...'I hardly believe it will take more troops to stablize post war Iraq then it will to win the war.'

They rejected advice from top generals who warned this administration that the U.S. would face armed resistance after the war.

Nothing the administration told the American people had us believing this would be such a long and difficult path to democracy.

Does anyone in these forums believe the American people would've supported this war had we known we would be stuck there a good 4 years later?

No one in the Bush administration even hinted that this was a possibility at the beginning.
 

scottyz

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cnredd said:
Find me a major war torn country with a new government where everything was peachy keen in less than 4 years...

This is a prime example of the remote control ideology where if things aren't done by the time your pizza arrives, it must not be worth doing...
Didn't the Pentagon plan for a major troop reduction the summer after the invasion? Obviously the admin. was expecting instant gratification and not a long drawn out conflict. Even their statements prior to the invasion reflect that they expected an easy and short conflict.
 

scottyz

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Hoot said:
I don't agree with this statement at all. Everything Bush and Cheney and the entire administration told us as a prelude to this war said it would be a piece of cake.

Even Rumsfield is on record as saying things like...'I hardly believe it will take more troops to stablize post war Iraq then it will to win the war.'

They rejected advice from top generals who warned this administration that the U.S. would face armed resistance after the war.

Nothing the administration told the American people had us believing this would be such a long and difficult path to democracy.

Does anyone in these forums believe the American people would've supported this war had we known we would be stuck there a good 4 years later?

No one in the Bush administration even hinted that this was a possibility at the beginning.
I remember when Cheney annouced the insurgency was in it's last throes. Cheney's opinion about invading Iraq now is a complete 180 from his opinion after the first war.

I think Bush heard what he wanted to hear about post-invasion Iraq and ignored the rest. Why anyone thought that Democracy was going to cure generations of hatred between the groups in Iraq is beyond me. The fact that things have veered way off course is probably of little concern to him now as he gets to pass these problems on to the next guy.
 

fooligan

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Billo_Really said:
I can anyone possibly be in favor of doing
this to another country that did nothing to them?
Gassed Kurds<Iraq







 

DivineComedy

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Billo_Really said:
I can anyone possibly be in favor of doing
this to another country that did nothing to them?
I morally can’t see how the United Nations (of tyrants too) could possibly be in favor of doing this to another country.

But, the United Nations (of tyrants too) will most likely continue to appease threats to the peace by tyrants (that supported the tyranny of terror and attacked the people of nations) and will most likely allow the oppression or genocide of a Nation (of people) wherever it is occurring, or is threatened.

“The Purposes of the United Nations are:
To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and
To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.”

“The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).” (The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas))
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

“The Secretary-General strongly condemns Israel’s assassination of Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, which resulted in the deaths of eight others. He is concerned that such an action would lead to further bloodshed and death and acts of revenge and retaliation. He reiterates that extrajudicial killings are against international law and calls on the Government of Israel to immediately end this practice. The only way to halt an escalation in the violence is for the parties to work towards a viable negotiating process aimed at a just, lasting and comprehensive settlement.”
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sgsm9210.doc.htm

Thanks to the help of the United Nations (of tyrants too) Hamas won the election.

“A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man.”
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

The Sudan thanks you too.

“The Arab League has rejected any sanctions or international military intervention as a response to the crisis in Sudan's Darfur region…On 30 July, a UN resolution gave Sudan 30 days to bring Arab militia under control or face international action.” (Monday, 9 August, 2004, 03:23 GMT 04:23 UK) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3545818.stm

Darn, I don’t have a 2004 calendar, do you have a 2004 calendar?
 

Conflict

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DivineComedy said:
I morally can’t see how the United Nations (of tyrants too) could possibly be in favor of doing this to another country.

But, the United Nations (of tyrants too) will most likely continue to appease threats to the peace by tyrants (that supported the tyranny of terror and attacked the people of nations) and will most likely allow the oppression or genocide of a Nation (of people) wherever it is occurring, or is threatened.

“The Purposes of the United Nations are:
To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and
To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.”

“The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).” (The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas))
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

“The Secretary-General strongly condemns Israel’s assassination of Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, which resulted in the deaths of eight others. He is concerned that such an action would lead to further bloodshed and death and acts of revenge and retaliation. He reiterates that extrajudicial killings are against international law and calls on the Government of Israel to immediately end this practice. The only way to halt an escalation in the violence is for the parties to work towards a viable negotiating process aimed at a just, lasting and comprehensive settlement.”
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sgsm9210.doc.htm

Thanks to the help of the United Nations (of tyrants too) Hamas won the election.

“A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man.”
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

The Sudan thanks you too.

“The Arab League has rejected any sanctions or international military intervention as a response to the crisis in Sudan's Darfur region…On 30 July, a UN resolution gave Sudan 30 days to bring Arab militia under control or face international action.” (Monday, 9 August, 2004, 03:23 GMT 04:23 UK) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3545818.stm

Darn, I don’t have a 2004 calendar, do you have a 2004 calendar?
To understand the world around you, you must first understand yourself.

The U.N. Never approved of hostile engagement.

It was Bush who pushed our lawmakers into going for this war.

The UN was against it.
 

Conflict

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So what do we see RIGHT NOW, as I speak, in Iraq?

Martial Law. Communism at work in it's most disgusting form. The complete opposite of freedom or liberation. Disgusting!
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by DivineComedy:
“A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.
No nation has the right to interfere in another nations business within there borders unless it is in concert with the world community. We knew how brutal he was back in the 1980's. Maybe he wouldn't have become what he did if we hadn't of sold him all those arms back then. We also knew about OFF for years and said nothing. The Sudan is a bad situation. Something should be done. But it is also a good example to show that you can't just go into someones country and start directing traffic.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Conflict:
So what do we see RIGHT NOW, as I speak, in Iraq?

Martial Law. Communism at work in it's most disgusting form. The complete opposite of freedom or liberation. Disgusting!
Maybe one of the true "positives" we have left in this country, we could offer as a guide to the Iraqis in their current situation. That is the fact that we, as a nation, settle our disputes within the context of our courts and laws. Liberals and conservatives go at each other pretty good, but we never take up arms against each other. The dialogue is heated, but that's as hot as it gets. If the Iraqis could learn from this, they would have a better shot making democracy work for them. It would certainly save lives.

Unfortunately, I do not know how to get them to see this. But I do know they're not going to accept it at the point of a gun.
 

Conflict

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Billo_Really said:
Maybe one of the true "positives" we have left in this country, we could offer as a guide to the Iraqis in their current situation. That is the fact that we, as a nation, settle our disputes within the context of our courts and laws. Liberals and conservatives go at each other pretty good, but we never take up arms against each other. The dialogue is heated, but that's as hot as it gets. If the Iraqis could learn from this, they would have a better shot making democracy work for them. It would certainly save lives.

Unfortunately, I do not know how to get them to see this. But I do know they're not going to accept it at the point of a gun.
Yeah well even here my right to bear arms and the possible manifestation of those ramifications is becoming more likely. I hold violence as a last resort but I am beginning to feel that it may be neccessary to preserve the foundation of our nation.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Conflict:
Yeah well even here my right to bear arms and the possible manifestation of those ramifications is becoming more likely. I hold violence as a last resort but I am beginning to feel that it may be neccessary to preserve the foundation of our nation.
If we are a nation any more. Did you notice all the detention centers Halliburton has been building around the country? Something tells me were are about to go through the Stalinization of America. Neocon purges. It makes sense, they are the most radical element of our society. What they don't realize is that not even they are represented in Corporate America anymore.

Check this out.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/022106a.html
 

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fooligan said:
Gassed Kurds<Iraq







Fooligan, everyone knows about Saddams crimes but this thread is not about them. Sure, you can support the war but I'm asking if the administration is doing a good job of running it.

As yet, no-one has come onto the thread and said Iraq is better now than at the end of the war (and provided reasons for saying so).

The reconstruction progress is a joke and people without jobs/food/homes will undoubtedly become disillusioned - you know these are the sort of situations which breed terrorists. If it was a private company in charge of this mess the directors ect would all have been sacked long ago. The troops have everyone's support but their job was done 3 years ago. We have the right (duty) to question the abilities of our govt. in relation to the ensuing mess and quite frankly I don't think they're up to the task.

In addition, since I originally posted the thread one of the holiest shrines in Iraq has been blown up, a civil war is on the brink of starting and the noble Iraqi army (which once again we have trained and armed) is out on the streets in death squads killing Sunni rivals. Still getting better??
 

justone

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G-Man said:
Fooligan, everyone knows about Saddams crimes but this thread is not about them. Sure, you can support the war but I'm asking if the administration is doing a good job of running it.

As yet, no-one has come onto the thread and said Iraq is better now than at the end of the war (and provided reasons for saying so).
Another sad thing is that Billo Really posted the same pictures to prove American crimes. And then he didn't like me for shooting him as an Islamo-Fascist prapagandist.
Bite another bullet, Billo and die.

I would say, G-man there was no end of the war. The war is still going on.
Any war is not a parade when we demonstate our weapons and the enemy falls. It turns to be the enemy is not scared by our attributes of of force and big shiny guns, but he is finding a more efficient weapon than we do in order to fight us. That is somewhat similiar to Hitler ordering Tiger tanks and rocket granades to fight more powerful Russian tanks T-34. Or US developing nukes against Japan. This is what going in a normal process of warfare, - tactics and weapons are continiuosly changing and adjusting.
The question is how much we are scared at the new weapons invented by the enemy. Do we see ourself defeated? Will we withstand psychological pressure and find effective ways to defeat it? Will Billo's efforts to undermine our spirit and unification work? We were quite united at the first success. Can we stay united in tactical retreat, or we are already on a panic run, killing our commander? is the commander firm to turn the things around and lead us to victory? Does he have a new, adjusted plan?
 

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justone said:
I would say, G-man there was no end of the war. The war is still going on.

Do we see ourself defeated? Will we withstand psychological pressure and find effective ways to defeat it? Will Billo's efforts to undermine our spirit and unification work? We were quite united at the first success. Can we stay united in tactical retreat, or we are already on a panic run, killing our commander? is the commander firm to turn the things around and lead us to victory? Does he have a new, adjusted plan?

Not really, the war was fought against Saddam and his henchmen. They have been comprehensibly defeated. We are in a new conflict now - one for which we made absolutley no plan to fight and were completely unprepared for. To think the welcome mat would be laid out for us after the fall of Saddam was gross negligence of the highest order.

However, after finding ourselves where we are no progress is being made whatsoever, despite the ever rising number of troop fatalities and cost to our nation. A new plan?? Hows about having any plan whatsoever!!

When Iraqi fights Iraqi where does this leave us? Whichever side we support (if we should indeed support either) will be tainted by US influence and undesirable to the rest of the Arab nations.

Anyway Justone back to the original Q......is Iraq better since 2003? Is there better security, better public services, law and order, a decent medical service, employment, homes or food? I haven't seen any of this happen.
 

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G-Man said:
Anyway Justone back to the original Q......is Iraq better since 2003? Is there better security, better public services, law and order, a decent medical service, employment, homes or food? I haven't seen any of this happen.
This is because you don't want to see it. Don't confuse the headlines that sell papers as the end all be all story of Iraq. Here are just a quick few. There are literally hundreeds and hundreds of contractor companies busy at work inside Iraq.

1) A team of contractors, engineers, and SeaBees are actively building structures for education....

"A recent survey by UNICEF found that overall enrollment has surged from 3.6 million youngsters in primary school in 2000 to some 4.3 million at present."

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news..._IN_IRAQ_LACK_BASICS_FOR_DECENT_EDUCATION.asp

2) Infrastructure continues to be an effort....

"In support of the U.S. government's reconstruction effort in Iraq, Bechtel is under contract with the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), for the emergency repair, rehabilitation, and reconstruction of critical elements of Iraq’s infrastructure. This initial effort includes assessing and repairing selected power, municipal water, and sewage systems; dredging, repairing, and upgrading the Port of Umm Qasr; rehabilitating selected schools, clinics, and fire stations; reconstructing three key bridges; constructing a key rail line; restoring telephone service to more than 200,000 Baghdad subscribers; and restoring Iraq's main 2,000-kilometer, north-south fiber optic communications backbone.
In addition, on January 6, 2004, USAID awarded Bechtel a second contract known as Iraq Infrastructure II, a major USAID program of engineering, procurement, and construction services for a series of new infrastructure projects in Iraq. Bechtel is teamed with Parsons of Pasadena, California, and Horne Engineering Services of Fairfax, Virginia. This contract runs from January 2004 through December 2005 with a total value of up to $1.8 billion."


http://www.bechtel.com/iraq.htm

3) More infrastructure and schools....

"Lost in the headlines coming out of Iraq about car bombs and improvised explosive devices is the progress being made by one Defense Department organization. The Project and Contracting Office announced Wednesday at Pentagon press briefing it has started more than 1,000 construction projects this year in Iraq. They hope to start 1,200 projects by the end of the year.

We are looking at 70 to 100 construction starts per week," Hess said. "1,700 is our next milestone. Over 100,000 Iraqis are working on Project Contracting Office projects. It will peak in midsummer at around 140,000."



http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/9_51/national_news/32642-1.html

4) More infrastructure and schools.....

"We actually hope to begin the phase of implementation by October. The projects are in infrastructure rehabilitation, water and sanitation and school rehabilitation,"

http://www.iraqdevelopmentprogram.org/idp/news/new407

5) Electrical Training......

"USAID is implementing a power sector O&M program that consists of performing facility condition assessments, trainingincluding on-the-job training (OJT)- coaching, mentoring, providing maintenance and plant outage support, and furnishing test equipment, special tools, permanent plant equipment, materials, services and parts for use in support of the electrical generation facilities in Iraq."

http://ftp.info.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/opmaint.html


The answer to the question is both. One of the problems is that the general American is waiting for that magic light switch or that magic wand to be waved. Weak, new governments, or those transforming themselves, need training wheels on the bicycle of state, and we try to insist instead that every government should jump on a Harley. The general American is impatient and spoiled. While pressuring Washington for the troops return, they are rushing Iraq into failure.
 

G-Man

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GySgt said:
This is because you don't want to see it. Don't confuse the headlines that sell papers as the end all be all story of Iraq. Here are just a quick few. There are literally hundreeds and hundreds of contractor companies busy at work inside Iraq.

1) A team of contractors, engineers, and SeaBees are actively building structures for education....

"A recent survey by UNICEF found that overall enrollment has surged from 3.6 million youngsters in primary school in 2000 to some 4.3 million at present."

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news..._IN_IRAQ_LACK_BASICS_FOR_DECENT_EDUCATION.asp

2) Infrastructure continues to be an effort....

"In support of the U.S. government's reconstruction effort in Iraq, Bechtel is under contract with the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), for the emergency repair, rehabilitation, and reconstruction of critical elements of Iraq’s infrastructure. This initial effort includes assessing and repairing selected power, municipal water, and sewage systems; dredging, repairing, and upgrading the Port of Umm Qasr; rehabilitating selected schools, clinics, and fire stations; reconstructing three key bridges; constructing a key rail line; restoring telephone service to more than 200,000 Baghdad subscribers; and restoring Iraq's main 2,000-kilometer, north-south fiber optic communications backbone.
In addition, on January 6, 2004, USAID awarded Bechtel a second contract known as Iraq Infrastructure II, a major USAID program of engineering, procurement, and construction services for a series of new infrastructure projects in Iraq. Bechtel is teamed with Parsons of Pasadena, California, and Horne Engineering Services of Fairfax, Virginia. This contract runs from January 2004 through December 2005 with a total value of up to $1.8 billion."


http://www.bechtel.com/iraq.htm

3) More infrastructure and schools....

"Lost in the headlines coming out of Iraq about car bombs and improvised explosive devices is the progress being made by one Defense Department organization. The Project and Contracting Office announced Wednesday at Pentagon press briefing it has started more than 1,000 construction projects this year in Iraq. They hope to start 1,200 projects by the end of the year.

We are looking at 70 to 100 construction starts per week," Hess said. "1,700 is our next milestone. Over 100,000 Iraqis are working on Project Contracting Office projects. It will peak in midsummer at around 140,000."



http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/9_51/national_news/32642-1.html

4) More infrastructure and schools.....

"We actually hope to begin the phase of implementation by October. The projects are in infrastructure rehabilitation, water and sanitation and school rehabilitation,"

http://www.iraqdevelopmentprogram.org/idp/news/new407

5) Electrical Training......

"USAID is implementing a power sector O&M program that consists of performing facility condition assessments, trainingincluding on-the-job training (OJT)- coaching, mentoring, providing maintenance and plant outage support, and furnishing test equipment, special tools, permanent plant equipment, materials, services and parts for use in support of the electrical generation facilities in Iraq."

http://ftp.info.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/opmaint.html


The answer to the question is both. One of the problems is that the general American is waiting for that magic light switch or that magic wand to be waved. Weak, new governments, or those transforming themselves, need training wheels on the bicycle of state, and we try to insist instead that every government should jump on a Harley. The general American is impatient and spoiled. While pressuring Washington for the troops return, they are rushing Iraq into failure.
Fair points Gysgt but no-one ever said there were NO reconstruction projects taking place in Iraq. Also, most of your points provide details of reconstruction jobs/tasks to be completed. Its been several years since the war ended, do we know how many of the above have been completed?

You are entitled to your own opinion but I don't think asking for clean water/sanitation/electricity within three years is asking to wave a magic wand. The problem with all this is that there were absolutely no plans for it whatsoever at the end of the war. We are still paying the price for this lack of preparation.

BTW you still haven't answered the question Gysgt......is the present situation better than that immediately after the war?

3 years ago you could walk down the street without fear of car/suicide bombings. 3 years ago you could sleep at night without fearing your Sunni/Shia neighbour will burst into your house and kidnap/murder you.

I may be impatient but when we are told 'months not years' and then wait 3 years to raise concerns I don't think thats out of line.

The task in Iraq is important but lets try and do it well. The present administration has shown a complete lack of understanding as to what is required or how to establish a 'safe' state.

I know when Bush was asked to name any mistakes he had made (or was it his worst mistake I can't remember) he couldn't think of any....personall I don't think thats right. But tell my Gysgt..are you also of the opinion that the administration has made no errors with the path of post-war Iraq?
 

Billo_Really

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12 new industrial projects for 2006
By Muthana Aydan Azzaman, February 11, 2006


The state company for industrial design and construction says it intends to implement 12 major projects in 2006. The projects are being designed and prepared for various government ministries, a statement by the company said. The statement said the total cost of these projects amounts to nearly 25 billion Iraqi dinars. Last year the company designed 14 projects at a cost of more than 12 billion dinars. The company designs industrial projects and supervises construction and implementation. Most of the projects are for key ministries like oil and electricity, the statement said. It said the company expected to sign more contracts with the ministry of oil which has the largest investment budget for 2006. The ministry’s $3 billion allocations will be used to upgrade refineries and boost oil output.

The statement said the company was engaged in the rehabilitation of the refinery in Qaiyra in the north. In the electricity field, the company is currently installing equipment for a power plant that will feed al-Huriya district in Baghdad
.

http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=news\2006-02-11\186.htm
What is bad in Iraq is very bad. But what is good in Iraq is very good.
 

ProudAmerican

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You are entitled to your own opinion but I don't think asking for clean water/sanitation/electricity within three years is asking to wave a magic wand.
considering we cant even resurect a structure in lower Manhattan within more than three years because of redtape and beurocracy, Id say asking to provide the things you mentioned for an entire country might be a tad harder than the oponents of this war are willing to admit.

3 years ago you could walk down the street without fear of car/suicide bombings. 3 years ago you could sleep at night without fearing your Sunni/Shia neighbour will burst into your house and kidnap/murder you.
trading that for rape rooms, torture chambers and being thrown off buildings on a whim really isnt that great a deal IMO.
 
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