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In The USA, Anti-Sharia Laws Are Unconstitutional [W:327]

You gave only your opinion, not the accepted world view of Islam, unless you can prove it lacks religious tenets as you claim.

Yeah, I know, you said that already. And I have told you that I have supported what Islam says it is. You apparently haven't kept up. So, prove that my proofs are wrong. Or be quiet. Because you don't know what your talking about.

Quantrill
 
That's an overly simplistic solution. They may practice Sharia so long as it doesn't violate the laws of the land. So if Sharia says a man can divorce his wife, then it's fine because it is permissable by secular law. If Sharia says a man can beat his wife for any reason, then he cannot here in the US. That isn't allowable. That part of Sharia will have to be rejected if practitioners wish to live in the US.

Or, in other words, abide by our laws. You get a divorce accepted by our laws. You don't beat your wife becausse our laws say you can't.

See, no need for Shariah law.

You don't give Shariah law any legal authority.

It is indeed a simple solution. And it works.

Quantrill
 
Or, in other words, abide by our laws. You get a divorce accepted by our laws. You don't beat your wife becausse our laws say you can't.

See, no need for Shariah law.

You don't give Shariah law any legal authority.

It is indeed a simple solution. And it works.

Quantrill

No religion in the United States can have legal authority.
 
Then no Shariah courts need be allowed. Correct?

Quantrill

Shariah courts aren't legal in the United States. Shariah courts would be unconstitutional, they can't be allowed. There is no provision for them or any religious court. As such there is no need to pass laws against Shariah law as the laws would be redundant. It would be the same thing if you and I tried to get a law passed that says a human can't take a crap on a buffet table in Baton Rouge. Baton Rouge already has a number of laws on the books that would prevent that. It's already covered.
 
Shariah courts aren't legal in the United States. Shariah courts would be unconstitutional, they can't be allowed. There is no provision for them or any religious court. As such there is no need to pass laws against Shariah law as the laws would be redundant. It would be the same thing if you and I tried to get a law passed that says a human can't take a crap on a buffet table in Baton Rouge. Baton Rouge already has a number of laws on the books that would prevent that. It's already covered.

The State can pass such laws. The State determines if there is a need to do so. Some states have so determined.

If Shariah Law is unconstitutional, then no problem. Correct?

Quantrill
 
Yeah, I know, you said that already. And I have told you that I have supported what Islam says it is. You apparently haven't kept up. So, prove that my proofs are wrong. Or be quiet. Because you don't know what your talking about.

Quantrill
If you wish to discuss things rationally then their would be no problem with you provided your proof, if it exists outside your own opinion ! I did not claim what you have said to be a world wide fact as you did, so it really is not on me to prove anything. As for being quite that is also your problem if you do not like what I say I suggest ignoring me so you do not bother yourself with things that conflict with your opinions, but be prepared to ignore a LOT of DP'ers if you choose that route ! On a passing note it appears I do know much more about sharia law & Islam than you do, unless of course you can prove me wrong about my statement concerning the reality of Islam being a religion and not as you claim a political party.
 
Or, in other words, abide by our laws. You get a divorce accepted by our laws. You don't beat your wife becausse our laws say you can't.
Exactamundo!

See, no need for Shariah law.

You don't give Shariah law any legal authority.

It is indeed a simple solution. And it works.

There's more to Sharia law than just those examples. If Sharia law says you must feed a traveler who comes to your door, then fine, do that. There's no need to throw everything out. Not ALL of Sharia is a bad thing to Western eyes, just some of it. So we need only toss out the parts that conflict with our society.

We are not monsters who insist our new citizens must disregard ALL of their cultural/religious history. We want them to integrate as smoothly as possible yet maintain as much of their cultural uniqueness as possible. This has historically been an advantage for the US. Let's not throw it away now.

If a Japanese man comes here and insists on living by the Bushido code (another set of laws) he can do that. If he insists on wearing traditional Samurai garb (a bit weird but whatever), that's fine too, but the Katana (a sword) cannot be worn. If the sword is the problem, just don't include the sword. We don't need state laws banning the whole of Bushido code. Just remove the part that doesn't fit. We've done this in the past and it works very well. The same can be done with Sharia. Just remove the parts that don't fit into our culture.
 
The State can pass such laws. The State determines if there is a need to do so. Some states have so determined.

If Sharia Law is unconstitutional, then no problem. Correct?

Quantrill

These days with all the dumbassery we see coming out of state legislatures and Congress, it doesn't surprise me to see some states passing laws banning Sharia. The laws are for show, to appease a largely ignorant public, as Sharia law would be unconstitutional. Sharia, no religion, can supersede our code of laws. Correct.
 
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Exactamundo!



There's more to Sharia law than just those examples. If Sharia law says you must feed a traveler who comes to your door, then fine, do that. There's no need to throw everything out. Not ALL of Sharia is a bad thing to Western eyes, just some of it. So we need only toss out the parts that conflict with our society.

We are not monsters who insist our new citizens must disregard ALL of their cultural/religious history. We want them to integrate as smoothly as possible yet maintain as much of their cultural uniqueness as possible. This has historically been an advantage for the US. Let's not throw it away now.

If a Japanese man comes here and insists on living by the Bushido code (another set of laws) he can do that. If he insists on wearing traditional Samurai garb (a bit weird but whatever), that's fine too, but the Katana (a sword) cannot be worn. If the sword is the problem, just don't include the sword. We don't need state laws banning the whole of Bushido code. Just remove the part that doesn't fit. We've done this in the past and it works very well. The same can be done with Sharia. Just remove the parts that don't fit into our culture.

Bingo! Sharia cannot replace or supersede the laws of the United States. It is idiotic for state legislatures to pass laws again Sharia. Other parts of Sharia are legal within the United States and thus they don't supersede US laws.
 
Non-secular laws are unconstitutional, as is barring religious practices which do not break secular laws..

Ya um implementing a non-secular legal system is unconstitutional and much of the practices which compromise Sharia are in fact against statutory law as well; such as, killing gays and apostates.
 
As best I can discover, the following states have enacted so-called "anti-Sharia" laws or amendments to their state constitutions, and several more have bills of this nature pending in their state legislatures.

* South Dakota
* Oklahoma
* Georgia
* Tennessee
* Alaska
* Arizona
* Arkansas
* Indiana
* Louisiana
* Mississippi
* Nebraska
* South Carolina
* Texas
* Utah
* Wyoming

And apparently, now Kansas.

http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/...haria_law.html

That's a rather unusual pattern; a third of all US states have taken up various ways to impair Sharia Law in our courts, most since January 2011.

The purpose of this thread is ONLY to focus on the US constitutional issues these proposed laws and state constitutional amendments present.

These various bills, laws and state constitutional amendments or proposed amendments are not all the same. Some, like Oklahoma, specifically target and prohibit application of Sharia Law in any state court for any reason. Such laws obviously fail Equal Protection tests under the 5th and 14th Amendments.

Most, however, ban any use of "foreign laws and customs","international law" or "laws established outside the United States". Such language at least facially passes an Equal Protection test, but are they constitutional? And if so, are they offensive to any other core principle of US constitutional law?

Here are some reasons (but not all) why these bans will never pass US constitutional muster:

* The US constitution reserves the right to make treaties with foreign nations exclusively to the federal government. (US constitution, Article II, Section II.) In additon to treaties that contemplate taxes, tarrifs, etc., the US is signatory to various international treaties dealing with child custody, inheritance, and other family law matters.

Any state court which failed to recognize the validity of a foreign-made child custody order would not only offend the US constitution, it would also imperil the rights of American parents, who would have less hope of enforcing their custody orders made here in foreign courts. There is also a good argument to be made that treaties with Native American tribes would be impaired by such bans, and since those treaties are federal government-made, these bans would fail under the Supremacy Clause. (Article VI, Paragragh II.)

* The US constitution protects the rights of individuals and businesses to make contracts. (Article I, Section X, among others.) This protection is not absolute, of course, but in general a contract will be respected as long as its provisions are legal. However, in states with "anti-foreign laws and customs" bans, a contract provision that called for arbitration between a US person or company and a foreign one is in grave doubt. (Like cannon law for Catholics and halakhah for Jews, Sharia Law has provisions for arbitration of certain disputes between adherents to Islam in a religious court.) To my way of thinking, there is no federal constitutional means by which civil arbitration can be constitutional or legal in any state which prohibits religious arbitration -- and many existing contracts will be in peril as a result.

This would impair huge market sectors -- for example, almost all insurance companies lay off risk on secondary markets, called reinsurers, and most secondary markets are foreign. Arbitration is key to all such contracts and if a US company is legally impaired from entering any contract which requires it, it is doubtful they could continue to do business with reinsurers at all.

I am comfortable predicting that, by creating ambiguity over contracts with foreign persons, every state with such "foreign laws and customs" bans has harmed its own business community, as the businesses situated there are far less able to fix rights and duties by contract as compared to businesses situated in other US states or in foreign countries that compete with them.

* Use of foreign laws and customs as evidence in US courts. If a state court may not "recognize" any foreign law or custom, can state judges permit evidence of such if that evidence bears on motive or intent? No one knows, of course, how the courts would interprete these laws and amendments if ever they are permitted to become effective, but my reading of the plain language of at least some proposed state constitutional amendments and laws is "no".

So, in family court, no one may show that a spouse does not keep kosher or request that doing so be made mandatory in a child custody agreement. In probate court, a will may not be contested by use of evidence that involves any Catholic religious practice. In fact, it is not even clear whether such a will, contract or judgment provision now in existence would remain effective under these "foreign laws and customs" bans.

So if it matters to you that your former spouse raise your children in a certain faith, you may be unable to legally obligate your spouse on this point if any anti-Sharia laws, etc., go into effect in a US state. And clearly, the most nonsensical of all results would be to create a barrier against any evidence of religious belief that is deemed "foreign" in a criminal proceeding, when that evidence bears directly on the defendant's alleged motive for committing the crime with which he is charged.

Should ANY of these laws, etc. take effect, even temporarily, there will be an instantly-created cottage industry for lawyers as to which religious practices are "foreign" and which are not.

I am also unable to see how, if these laws, etc. were effective, any defendant could exclude testimony by his cleric if that defendant was Muslim. To pass the Equality tests, this would mean none of us could keep out testimony by our spiritual leaders, such as pastors, priests, rabbis, etc. Any attempt to limit this to Muslim defendants and no others clearly fails all sots of constitutional tests.

* When Sharia Law in the United States is properly viewed, for legal purposes, solely as a collections of religious practices, any attempt to burden such religious practices will be unconstitutional here unless the state can show (a) it had a compelling reason to outlaw or burden adherents of this faith; and (b) no less burdensome means was possible. Any law or state constitutional amendment has to pass the strictest possible constitutional scrutiny. I can count on one hand the number of state laws which have survived this kind of review by the US Supreme Court.

Religious freedom in the US is EXTREMELY well-protected, and states may burden that freedom only in the most extreme cases (child neglect or abuse, etc.) and then only by the least restrictive means possible. Clearly, an outright ban on all the religious practices of Islam on the grounds that they are "foreign" is doomed for failure. (US constitution, Amendment I.)


What would permission to beat ones wife amount to? How about requiring 5 male witnesses to rape? How about the killing of gays and apostates? How about aspects of Sharia which grant less rights to women and more to men which is clearly a violation of the 14th amendments equal protection clause not to mention the civil rights act.
 
If you wish to discuss things rationally then their would be no problem with you provided your proof, if it exists outside your own opinion ! I did not claim what you have said to be a world wide fact as you did, so it really is not on me to prove anything. As for being quite that is also your problem if you do not like what I say I suggest ignoring me so you do not bother yourself with things that conflict with your opinions, but be prepared to ignore a LOT of DP'ers if you choose that route ! On a passing note it appears I do know much more about sharia law & Islam than you do, unless of course you can prove me wrong about my statement concerning the reality of Islam being a religion and not as you claim a political party.

Why should I ignore you. I just call your hand. I have provided the proofs. You offer nothing to disprove what I have already shown to be true.

So, keep on telling me you know more about Islam and Shariah law, but until you disprove what I have proved, then its just bs.

I never said Islam was a political party. So, pay attention a little bit.

Quantrill
 
These days with all the dumbassery we see coming out of state legislatures and Congress, it doesn't surprise me to see some states passing laws banning Sharia. The laws are for show, to appease a largely ignorant public, as Sharia law would be unconstitutional. Sharia, no religion, can supersede our code of laws. Correct.

No one is talking about 'superceding' our laws. We are talking about allowing another law, Shariah Law to have authority over muslims. We are talking about American courts making decisions in consideration of Sharaih law.

There is enough dumbassery going around as to affect the Federal courts also. Thus the need and purpose for the State laws.

But, no problem, right. As it is unconstitutional for Shariah law to be allowed anyway. As you say.

Quantrill
 
Exactamundo!



There's more to Sharia law than just those examples. If Sharia law says you must feed a traveler who comes to your door, then fine, do that. There's no need to throw everything out. Not ALL of Sharia is a bad thing to Western eyes, just some of it. So we need only toss out the parts that conflict with our society.

We are not monsters who insist our new citizens must disregard ALL of their cultural/religious history. We want them to integrate as smoothly as possible yet maintain as much of their cultural uniqueness as possible. This has historically been an advantage for the US. Let's not throw it away now.

If a Japanese man comes here and insists on living by the Bushido code (another set of laws) he can do that. If he insists on wearing traditional Samurai garb (a bit weird but whatever), that's fine too, but the Katana (a sword) cannot be worn. If the sword is the problem, just don't include the sword. We don't need state laws banning the whole of Bushido code. Just remove the part that doesn't fit. We've done this in the past and it works very well. The same can be done with Sharia. Just remove the parts that don't fit into our culture.

The muslims can feed anyone they want to. No one is saying they cant'.

What is being said is that Shariah law is not to be considered by the American courts when making any determinations. And Shariah law courts are not to be set up over muslims.

They can abide in their religion as long as it is withing the boundaries of our law.

No Shariah law.

Quantrill
 
I would prefer to also reject the intolerance & bigotry of both inferiority of women & non-Muslims in sharia law thus making all of it prohibited within the US !

Cannot do this see below and post 31

No one can be legally bound by religious law because religious laws cannot be espoused by the government. If the parties agree to it, religious laws cannot conflict with criminal or civil laws under the First Amendment, it would be enforceable within the religious community. "(See Watson v. Jones, 80 U.S. 679 (1872) (“All who united themselves to such a body [the general church] do so with an implied consent to [its] government, and are bound to submit to it.”)."

Foreign or religious law can and should be used in certain situations. "For example, parties to a contract enjoy a great deal of leeway to establish binding agreements requiring contractual disputes to be submitted to arbitration. In their arbitration agreement, the disputing parties can bind themselves to use a particular arbitrator. Courts have held that arbitration agreements providing for what is commonly referred to as “biblically based mediation” (relying on specified principles of the Christian Bible) are enforceable."

There have been attempts to use sharia law where domestic relations are at issue. For example, "sharia in domestic courts is S.D. v. M.J.R., a New Jersey domestic violence case. In that dispute, a Muslim wife filed for a restraining order against her husband after several instances of physical abuse and non-consensual sexual intercourse. Though the trial court found that the defendant had engaged in sexual acts that were clearly against his wife’s wishes, it did not grant a final restraining order because the husband lacked the requisite criminal intent to commit sexual assault. This decision was based on the theory that the defendant acted based on his religious belief that a husband may demand to have intercourse with his wife whenever he desired. On appeal, the New Jersey Appellate Division overturned the trial court’s decision and remanded the case to the lower court for entry of a final restraining order. Noting that the case involved “a conflict between the criminal law and religious precepts,” the appellate court held that the defendant knowingly engaged in non-consensual sexual intercourse and thus could not be excused for his religious beliefs."


Also, the government is prohibited from interfering with religious activities. "Proposals to ban sharia raise a serious dilemma for legal scholars and jurists because the composition of sharia remains debated among various Islamic sects and scholars. Without an authoritative body of law with specific parameters, courts may find themselves faced with a need to determine the precise principles of sharia and thus offer judgment on the content of a religious doctrine, which is generally impermissible under the First Amendment."

"In 1872, the Court recognized that matters of religious doctrine should be determined within the authority of the particular church and should be separate from any secular legal interpretation: The law knows no heresy, and is committed to the support of no dogma, the establishment of no sect. … "

All who united themselves to such a body [the general church] do so with an implied consent to [its] government, and are bound to submit to it. But it would be a vain consent and would lead to total subversion of such religious bodies, if any one aggrieved by one of their decisions could appeal to the secular courts and have them [sic] reversed. It is of the essence of these religious unions, and of their right to establish tribunals for the decision of questions arising among themselves, that those decisions should be binding in all cases of ecclesiastical cognizance, subject only to such appeals as the organism itself provides for*.​


Thus, the Court established the principle that determinations of church doctrine and practice were to be free of government control well before it had even developed other aspects of its First Amendment jurisprudence. That general principle has since been cited by the Court in a number of First Amendment cases involving challenges of government interference in internal church matters."


http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41824.pdf

*(see Watson v. Jones, 80 U.S. 679 (1872), quoted in Presbyterian Church v. Hull Memorial Presbyterian Church, 393 U.S. 440, 446 (1969). See also Gonzalez v. Archbishop, 280 U.S. 1 (1929) (“In the absence of fraud, collusion, or arbitrariness, the decisions of the proper church tribunals on matters purely ecclesiastical, although affecting civil rights, are accepted in litigation before the secular courts as conclusive, because the parties in interest made them so by contract or otherwise.”).
 
What is being said is that Shariah law is not to be considered by the American courts when making any determinations. And Shariah law courts are not to be set up over muslims.

They can abide in their religion as long as it is withing the boundaries of our law.

Agree. American secular courts should not follow Sharia law. And I don't think setting up Sharia courts here is a good idea either. It certainly isn't working for the UK. What Sharia practitioners can do is hire third party arbiters to judge their case as close to Sharia as possible without violating US secular law. This would suffice for civil cases. If it comes down to criminal law (murder for instance), well then they're just SOL. They have to suck it up and accept American secular law. That's just the way it goes and we're not changing that for nothing.
 
Agree. American secular courts should not follow Sharia law. And I don't think setting up Sharia courts here is a good idea either. It certainly isn't working for the UK. What Sharia practitioners can do is hire third party arbiters to judge their case as close to Sharia as possible without violating US secular law. This would suffice for civil cases. If it comes down to criminal law (murder for instance), well then they're just SOL. They have to suck it up and accept American secular law. That's just the way it goes and we're not changing that for nothing.

The US has no need to consider any third party arbitrations concerning Shariah Law. They just make the determinations based on US law. Which means the muslim is SOL period if want he wants is to live here but be under Shariah law. If he wants to be under Shariah law, he can go to Arabia, or England.

Quantrill
 
No one is talking about 'superceding' our laws. We are talking about allowing another law, Shariah Law to have authority over muslims. We are talking about American courts making decisions in consideration of Sharaih law.

There is enough dumbassery going around as to affect the Federal courts also. Thus the need and purpose for the State laws.

But, no problem, right. As it is unconstitutional for Shariah law to be allowed anyway. As you say.

Quantrill

Do try to keep up, Quantrill. State laws disallowing Sharia are redundant. Plain, simple, complete. There is no need for legislation banning Sheria law. It isn't necessary.
 
Do try to keep up, Quantrill. State laws disallowing Sharia are redundant. Plain, simple, complete. There is no need for legislation banning Sheria law. It isn't necessary.

Redundant is not illegal. Redundant is not unconstitutionsal. Its simply a state law. And as others have indicated, not unconstitutional.

So, the titile of this thread is, 'Anti-Shariah laws are unconstitutional'. And its been proven they are not unconstitutional.

So, try to keep to the subject, if you can. Do try and keep up.

The framers of the Constitution believed that there was no need for a Bill of Rights. Why? Because what was asked for in the Bill of Rights was already covered by the Constitution.

Do you agree there was no need for a Bill of Rights? Just like you say there is no need for a state law forbidding Sharaih law?

Quantrill
 
Redundant is not illegal. Redundant is not unconstitutionsal. Its simply a state law. And as others have indicated, not unconstitutional.

So, the titile of this thread is, 'Anti-Shariah laws are unconstitutional'. And its been proven they are not unconstitutional.

So, try to keep to the subject, if you can. Do try and keep up.

The framers of the Constitution believed that there was no need for a Bill of Rights. Why? Because what was asked for in the Bill of Rights was already covered by the Constitution.

Do you agree there was no need for a Bill of Rights? Just like you say there is no need for a state law forbidding Sharaih law?

Quantrill

The Bill of Rights is Sharia law!!!! Who knew?
 
The Bill of Rights is Sharia law!!!! Who knew?

Please. Don't act stupid. Just answer the question. Do you think there was a need for the Bill of Rights? A Bill which the framers of the Constitution said wasn't necessarry because everything the Bill of Rights protected was already in the Constitution.

Likewise, you and others say there is no need for states to pass no-Shariah Law legislation, as it is already illegal for Shariah law to exist in our country.

Quantrill
 
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Can you make your question more coherent ?
Maybe if you can answer a few of my questions I can better make sense of what you want to know.
Exactly where is it that you believe sharia law is practiced and functions, specifically which middle eastern borders ?
Do you believe Muslim laws function underneath Muslims ?

The question is very coherent and easy: From where does Quantrill derive the notion that Muslim laws are functioning over and above constitutional governments outside of the Middle East? He cannot answer that of course, because Muslum (Sharia) law is not functioning as such anywhere outside of its boarder countries. He also says that sharia is secular, which is nonsense: it's sectarian; it's no different than Vatican City.

I noted the word "over" because that's the word he used, so I challenged his definition.

Now, what questions do you have?
 
Please. Don't act stupid. Just answer the question. Do you think there was a need for the Bill of Rights? A Bill which the framers of the Constitution said wasn't necessarry because everything the Bill of Rights protected was already in the Constitution.

Likewise, you and others say there is no need for states to pass no-Shariah Law legislation, as it is already illegal for Shariah law to exist in our country.

Quantrill

The comparison you are trying to make doesn't work. The BOR clarify the Constitution.

Look no one is saying states can't pass laws for whatever reasons they want. If you support anti-Sharia laws that's fine. It's a waste of time and money but do what you want. Passing the laws at state level is redundant. Not necessary. If it makes the weak and paranoid feel safe then I guess we will have states pass those laws.
 
The comparison you are trying to make doesn't work. The BOR clarify the Constitution.

Look no one is saying states can't pass laws for whatever reasons they want. If you support anti-Sharia laws that's fine. It's a waste of time and money but do what you want. Passing the laws at state level is redundant. Not necessary. If it makes the weak and paranoid feel safe then I guess we will have states pass those laws.

The comparison works quite well, which is why you don't want to answer the question. Just as the framers insured there was no need for the Bill of rights because the Constitution already offered these protections, so you and others are saying there is no need for state law to protect from Shariah law as we are already protected by the constitution.

So, was the Bill of Rights redundant? Or have we found that its a good thing that our forefathers had the good sense to have them implemented?

The reason States see the need to have such laws is that they see too much the Federal govt allowing things which they do not want.

Quantrill
 
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