• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

In The USA, Anti-Sharia Laws Are Unconstitutional [W:327]

Pinkie

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
12,316
Reaction score
3,220
Location
Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
As best I can discover, the following states have enacted so-called "anti-Sharia" laws or amendments to their state constitutions, and several more have bills of this nature pending in their state legislatures.

* South Dakota
* Oklahoma
* Georgia
* Tennessee
* Alaska
* Arizona
* Arkansas
* Indiana
* Louisiana
* Mississippi
* Nebraska
* South Carolina
* Texas
* Utah
* Wyoming

And apparently, now Kansas.

http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/...haria_law.html

That's a rather unusual pattern; a third of all US states have taken up various ways to impair Sharia Law in our courts, most since January 2011.

The purpose of this thread is ONLY to focus on the US constitutional issues these proposed laws and state constitutional amendments present.

These various bills, laws and state constitutional amendments or proposed amendments are not all the same. Some, like Oklahoma, specifically target and prohibit application of Sharia Law in any state court for any reason. Such laws obviously fail Equal Protection tests under the 5th and 14th Amendments.

Most, however, ban any use of "foreign laws and customs","international law" or "laws established outside the United States". Such language at least facially passes an Equal Protection test, but are they constitutional? And if so, are they offensive to any other core principle of US constitutional law?

Here are some reasons (but not all) why these bans will never pass US constitutional muster:

* The US constitution reserves the right to make treaties with foreign nations exclusively to the federal government. (US constitution, Article II, Section II.) In additon to treaties that contemplate taxes, tarrifs, etc., the US is signatory to various international treaties dealing with child custody, inheritance, and other family law matters.

Any state court which failed to recognize the validity of a foreign-made child custody order would not only offend the US constitution, it would also imperil the rights of American parents, who would have less hope of enforcing their custody orders made here in foreign courts. There is also a good argument to be made that treaties with Native American tribes would be impaired by such bans, and since those treaties are federal government-made, these bans would fail under the Supremacy Clause. (Article VI, Paragragh II.)

* The US constitution protects the rights of individuals and businesses to make contracts. (Article I, Section X, among others.) This protection is not absolute, of course, but in general a contract will be respected as long as its provisions are legal. However, in states with "anti-foreign laws and customs" bans, a contract provision that called for arbitration between a US person or company and a foreign one is in grave doubt. (Like cannon law for Catholics and halakhah for Jews, Sharia Law has provisions for arbitration of certain disputes between adherents to Islam in a religious court.) To my way of thinking, there is no federal constitutional means by which civil arbitration can be constitutional or legal in any state which prohibits religious arbitration -- and many existing contracts will be in peril as a result.

This would impair huge market sectors -- for example, almost all insurance companies lay off risk on secondary markets, called reinsurers, and most secondary markets are foreign. Arbitration is key to all such contracts and if a US company is legally impaired from entering any contract which requires it, it is doubtful they could continue to do business with reinsurers at all.

I am comfortable predicting that, by creating ambiguity over contracts with foreign persons, every state with such "foreign laws and customs" bans has harmed its own business community, as the businesses situated there are far less able to fix rights and duties by contract as compared to businesses situated in other US states or in foreign countries that compete with them.

* Use of foreign laws and customs as evidence in US courts. If a state court may not "recognize" any foreign law or custom, can state judges permit evidence of such if that evidence bears on motive or intent? No one knows, of course, how the courts would interprete these laws and amendments if ever they are permitted to become effective, but my reading of the plain language of at least some proposed state constitutional amendments and laws is "no".

So, in family court, no one may show that a spouse does not keep kosher or request that doing so be made mandatory in a child custody agreement. In probate court, a will may not be contested by use of evidence that involves any Catholic religious practice. In fact, it is not even clear whether such a will, contract or judgment provision now in existence would remain effective under these "foreign laws and customs" bans.

So if it matters to you that your former spouse raise your children in a certain faith, you may be unable to legally obligate your spouse on this point if any anti-Sharia laws, etc., go into effect in a US state. And clearly, the most nonsensical of all results would be to create a barrier against any evidence of religious belief that is deemed "foreign" in a criminal proceeding, when that evidence bears directly on the defendant's alleged motive for committing the crime with which he is charged.

Should ANY of these laws, etc. take effect, even temporarily, there will be an instantly-created cottage industry for lawyers as to which religious practices are "foreign" and which are not.

I am also unable to see how, if these laws, etc. were effective, any defendant could exclude testimony by his cleric if that defendant was Muslim. To pass the Equality tests, this would mean none of us could keep out testimony by our spiritual leaders, such as pastors, priests, rabbis, etc. Any attempt to limit this to Muslim defendants and no others clearly fails all sots of constitutional tests.

* When Sharia Law in the United States is properly viewed, for legal purposes, solely as a collections of religious practices, any attempt to burden such religious practices will be unconstitutional here unless the state can show (a) it had a compelling reason to outlaw or burden adherents of this faith; and (b) no less burdensome means was possible. Any law or state constitutional amendment has to pass the strictest possible constitutional scrutiny. I can count on one hand the number of state laws which have survived this kind of review by the US Supreme Court.

Religious freedom in the US is EXTREMELY well-protected, and states may burden that freedom only in the most extreme cases (child neglect or abuse, etc.) and then only by the least restrictive means possible. Clearly, an outright ban on all the religious practices of Islam on the grounds that they are "foreign" is doomed for failure. (US constitution, Amendment I.)

Furthermore, by elevating some religions as "nonforeign" above others, all these states move in a completely unconstitutional fashion towards establishing a government-sanctioned religion, and the bans they've adopted or are considering will fail on this ground as well.

I am 100% certain no state constitutional amendment or law attempting to prevent the use of Sharia Law in any state court proceeding that has been drafted to date will pass US constitutional muster. I am also 100% that such a task is an impossibility, and none ever will.

That's a whole lot of time, money and energy wasted on a snipe hunt inspired by ignorance and bigotry. I am absolutely bumfuddled as to why, in this economy, the citizens of these states are not outraged that their lawmakers are wasting time they could be spending on jobs, business development or the like trying to prevent harm which MAY flow from an unseen threat no one seriously expects will ever materialize in the US.

If anyone mistakenly thinks a charge of murder, e.g., could successfully be defended in any US state court merely by asserting an "honor killing" defense under Sharia Law, which is a perversion of that body of religious doctrine anyway, they could not possibly be more wrong.

No matter how any American worships (or not) God, we are all bound to adhere to OUR civil law or pay the consequences for violating it.
 
WOW. Quite a load there, but consider this. Is a judge, well versed in state law and precedent, suddenly to put that aside and decide a case using rules, laws or principles taylored to the wants of one (or even both) parties in a case? Our courts should use the statutes, and legal precedents, applicable to our law. The level of the court defines the level of law applicable, which may be appealed to a higher level. At just what level would this 'Sharia law' apply? Tenets of many laws are contained within our local, state and federal laws, all the way up to our constitution itself, but only laws passed by our gov'ts are to be considered in our courts.
 
WOW. Quite a load there, but consider this. Is a judge, well versed in state law and precedent, suddenly to put that aside and decide a case using rules, laws or principles taylored to the wants of one (or even both) parties in a case? Our courts should use the statutes, and legal precedents, applicable to our law. The level of the court defines the level of law applicable, which may be appealed to a higher level. At just what level would this 'Sharia law' apply? Tenets of many laws are contained within our local, state and federal laws, all the way up to our constitution itself, but only laws passed by our gov'ts are to be considered in our courts.

I'm not sure. "Facts" are certainly always welcome in state legal proceedings, and some "facts" are religious in nature. For example, whether a baby was baptized as a Catholic may have some bearing if one litigant presses the other in a divorce to raise the kids in that faith. Whether a dead person had the presence of mind to request the Last Rites might be some evidence of his or her competence in a will contest. Etc. I have no doubt, Sharia Law touches on such matters as births and deaths, and in that way, could enter the courtroom.

OTOH, if parents from "the old country" (and there are many all over Planet Earth) sought to annul a daughter's marriage against her will because they had not chosen her spouse for her, I doubt such a case would ever get heard in any state court in the US.

Catholic religious law, which is the only one I know much about, has no provision in it for any sort of arbitration. But Jewish and Islamic laws both do. If you and I are both devote Jews who enter a contract and agree within it to have any disputes heard before rabbis rather than a state court judge, can you enforce that against me?

I don't know. If we'd agreed to civil arbitration, that would be enforcable. My guess is sometimes yes, sometimes no....a heavy showing that such a proceeding would be so grossly unfair to me as to offend justice might allow me to escape into state court. Say, if you were a multimillionaire who was building a new temple and I was already embroiled in a separate dispute with the rabbis.

The only place in the world I know where someone might could provide some ideas is Israel, where it is becoming more common to litigate (so to speak) who is and is not a Jew. Among other rights, any Jew anywhere has a "right of return", meaning that Israel must allow that person to emigrate there...so it's not simply "religious" rights that can be affected.

In the US, I think the bottom line is that certain facts about the litigants' religious beliefs have always been admissable. If one or more such litigants were Islamic, Sharia Law would be of as much (or as little) evidentiary value as the facts of any other religious person's life have always been.

But certainly no moreso.
 
Last edited:
Sharia Law in the United States doesn't exist. It is not part of any US Code, or State code. Frankly there is no need for anti-Sharia Law in the US, since no judge should be referring to it. The only way you could be arrested for breaking a Sharia Law is if it happened to be the same as a local, state or federal law.
 
Sharia Law in the United States doesn't exist. It is not part of any US Code, or State code. Frankly there is no need for anti-Sharia Law in the US, since no judge should be referring to it. The only way you could be arrested for breaking a Sharia Law is if it happened to be the same as a local, state or federal law.

I agree with this completely. The states seem to be wasting time and money. If "Sharia" law violates the USSC or state laws, that alone would be sufficient to strike it down
 
I agree with this completely. The states seem to be wasting time and money. If "Sharia" law violates the USSC or state laws, that alone would be sufficient to strike it down

That be the truth of the matter. If people want to agree to certain rules of conduct, well we have right to contract and they may do so. The limitation is that they cannot infringe upon the rights of others or break our laws in the process of acting out the contract. But barring that, it's fine. If someone wants to hold someone to laws which infringe upon their rights our violate our Constitution, then they're just SOL.
 
Sharia Law in the United States doesn't exist. It is not part of any US Code, or State code. Frankly there is no need for anti-Sharia Law in the US, since no judge should be referring to it. The only way you could be arrested for breaking a Sharia Law is if it happened to be the same as a local, state or federal law.

Bold: Unfortenately some court judges have refered to things like Sharia Law when deciding some cases. I think that that is what many state legislatures are trying to stop.

Shariah Law and American State Courts
 
Jews have Jewish courts to decide civil cases through binding arbitration, which has the force & authority of American law.

That means that American law is enforcing civil case decisions that were made using Jewish regulations/laws.

If this is OK, than so are Muslim courts to decide Muslim civil cases for Muslims.
 
Jews have Jewish courts to decide civil cases through binding arbitration, which has the force & authority of American law.

That means that American law is enforcing civil case decisions that were made using Jewish regulations/laws.

If this is OK, than so are Muslim courts to decide Muslim civil cases for Muslims.

It's not OK.

Got any other talking points?
 
Jews have Jewish courts to decide civil cases through binding arbitration, which has the force & authority of American law.

That means that American law is enforcing civil case decisions that were made using Jewish regulations/laws.

If this is OK, than so are Muslim courts to decide Muslim civil cases for Muslims.

So long as all parties agreed to hold themselves to the religious rules, and those rules do not violate the rights of others or our Constitution; then through right of contract one may exercise those special requirements. It doesn't mean our judicial system recognizes it as anything more than contract agreed to by parties involved.
 
disregarding facts as talking points, is pretty nifty.

IE no you have no other talking points. Sorry that you couldn't prove that I was being hypocritical. Which is what made your post a talking point. You were just fishing to try and prove that someone (more than likely me since I am against courts using sharia law) was being hypocritical.
 
Last edited:
So long as all parties agreed to hold themselves to the religious rules, and those rules do not violate the rights of others or our Constitution; then through right of contract one may exercise those special requirements. It doesn't mean our judicial system recognizes it as anything more than contract agreed to by parties involved.

I would add the part in red below to your post.

"do not violate the rights of others or our Constitution or laws..."
 
IE no you have no other talking points. Sorry that you couldn't prove that I was being hypocritical. Which is what made your post a talking point. You were just fishing to try and prove that someone (more than likely me since I am against courts using sharia law) was being hypocritical.

Are you against Beth Din courts too? Don't sidestep the hypocrisy allegation.
 
From the 10th circuit court of appeals,:

Appellants do not identify any actual problem the challenged amendment seeks to solve. Indeed, they admitted at the preliminary injunction hearing that they did not know of even a single instance where an Oklahoma court had applied Sharia law or used the legal precepts of other nations or cultures, let alone that such applications or uses had resulted in concrete problems in Oklahoma. See Awad, 754 F. Supp. 2d at 1308; Aplt. App. Vol. 1 at 67-68.

Given the lack of evidence of any concrete problem, any harm Appellants seek to remedy with the proposed amendment is speculative at best and cannot support a compelling interest.15 “To sacrifice First Amendment protections for so speculative a gain is not warranted . . . .” Columbia Broad. Sys., Inc. v. Democratic Nat’l Co., 412 U.S. 94, 127 (1973).


And scene.
 
Are you against Beth Din courts too? Don't sidestep the hypocrisy allegation.

What are Beth Din courts? If they are courts not based entirely on American law then yes, I am against them.

Even though I thought I had already made this clear lets try this ONE more time. If people don't get it after this then they are just SOL.

I do not condone nor want any court verdict that is not based entirely upon American Law. Nor do I want any courts that base their rulings on anything but American Law in the US.
 
Is there a danger that we're going to become an Islamic dictatorship?
 
Is there a danger that we're going to become an Islamic dictatorship?

Funny,but I've been asking that same question on another thread.
Don't seem to be getting a straight answer in that one.
Hope you have better luck in this one.
 
Bold: Unfortenately some court judges have refered to things like Sharia Law when deciding some cases. I think that that is what many state legislatures are trying to stop.

Shariah Law and American State Courts

Then they need to be thrown off the bench. It's high time this country start putting its foot up the asses of court judges who misuse their positions of power. We pass laws in this country to govern ourselves, we don't use the law of other countries. If that were true what would we need our government for.
 
I agree with this completely. The states seem to be wasting time and money. If "Sharia" law violates the USSC or state laws, that alone would be sufficient to strike it down

True. But as you're probably aware, that's not generally where either Sharia or any other religious law shows up in our courts. Usually it's referred to in contractual matters. If judges are willing and able to apply (e.g.) Cannon, and Talmudic law to the extent that they're relevant to contractual analysis, there's no good reason they shouldn't also do so with Sharia. To treat religious law disparately in court is, obviously, a legitimate constitutional issue.
 
Then they need to be thrown off the bench. It's high time this country start putting its foot up the asses of court judges who misuse their positions of power. We pass laws in this country to govern ourselves, we don't use the law of other countries. If that were true what would we need our government for.

I agree whole heartedly.
 
True. But as you're probably aware, that's not generally where either Sharia or any other religious law shows up in our courts. Usually it's referred to in contractual matters. If judges are willing and able to apply (e.g.) Cannon, and Talmudic law to the extent that they're relevant to contractual analysis, there's no good reason they shouldn't also do so with Sharia. To treat religious law disparately in court is, obviously, a legitimate constitutional issue.

No private contract is valid if it breaks or tries to supersede our laws.
 
Back
Top Bottom