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If you support Israel please do the following.

If you strip away the religious ties the Christians have for the Jews, is there any real alliance between us and Israel?
 
blaxshep said:
If you strip away the religious ties the Christians have for the Jews, is there any real alliance between us and Israel?
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Following on from that, who's interests does that alliance best serve because its difficult to see any upside for the US here ?
 
flogger said:
Following on from that, who's interests does that alliance best serve because its difficult to see any upside for the US here ?
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If you have issues with the US-Israeli relations you can vote to candidates who oppose it.
Of course seeing that you're a British citizen it'd probably be hard to find one. Which brings me to question why you take interest in such an issue to begin with seeing it has no effect over your personal life, and seeing how this must be the third or fourth time in your short time on these boards that you engage in that argument.

Regardless as you've already been explained in various other threads where you've promoted the argument against the US-Israeli relations, the US-Israeli relations are based on first of all cultural similarities, secondly there are the shared geopolitical interests in the Mideast region and outside it, thirdly there is a strong economic cooperation, and finally the high rate of pro-Israelis among American citizens (an all-time high of around 76% in the most recent surveys) and of pro-Americans among Israeli citizens (around 88%).

Israel also develops, some with US aid and some without, technologies on many different fields that are later being adopted by American industries. These are mainly defensive technologies such as the Iron Dome, Arrow missile, Jericho missiles, various assault rifles such as the TAR-21 - but there are also technologies on other fields such as the recent aid Israel is giving to California in facing the water issues that Israel is familiar with.

With all that being said I recognize that you've already been told the above several times before, and yet you choose to maintain your positions, so I think it's quite safe to assume that it is not logic that you're basing your assertions on but sheer and pure hatred.
 
Apocalypse said:
I think it's quite safe to assume that it is not logic that you're basing your assertions on but sheer and pure hatred.
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:shock:

I was going to address all the points in your post at some length and in great detail until you came out with that !!
 
flogger said:
:shock:

I was going to address all the points in your post at some length and in great detail until you came out with that !!
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You must be having memory issues as you've already "addressed" these points several months ago in another thread. The fact you haven't changed your positions at all after these points were expressed towards you is the reason for this final conclusion of mine. Hopefully it clarifies.
 
I am against all foreign aid, understanding that you don't buy friends. This is particularly true when we borrow the money to give to other countries. I certainly support selling Israel the equipment they need to defend themselves. Long live Israel. Just stay out of our pockets.
 
Apocalypse said:
You must be having memory issues as you've already "addressed" these points several months ago in another thread. The fact you haven't changed your positions at all after these points were expressed towards you is the reason for this final conclusion of mine.
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Simply questioning why the US is so pro Israeli does not automatically mean I hate Israelis. That smacks of a kind of McCarthyism where instead of being smeared as a 'commie' I get smeared as an 'anti Semite' instead. This makes rational discussion next to impossible on this issue especially given that I'm also a European asking the question and all the 'historic overtones you would doubtless like Americans to infer from that :(
 
flogger said:
Simply questioning why the US is so pro Israeli does not automatically mean I hate Israelis. That smacks of a kind of McCarthyism where instead of being smeared as a 'commie' I get smeared as an 'anti Semite' instead. This makes rational discussion next to impossible on this issue especially given that I'm also a European asking the question and all the 'historic overtones you would doubtless like Americans to infer from that
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I don't believe I have called you an anti-Semite. Not here and not in the other threads where I've argued these same points with you that you're recycling again here.
 
Apocalypse said:
I don't believe I have called you an anti-Semite. Not here and not in the other threads where I've argued these same points with you that you're recycling again here.
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I'm sure its an inference you would like others to draw though as it stifles debate. The post cold war continuance of the US/Israeli relationship is in my view the most expensive (in more ways than one) foreign policy blunder America has made in recent decades. I could understand it when the Soviets were meddling with Egypt and others in the Middle East in the 60s early 70s and the US needed a counterpoint in the region but once they withdrew (and the US paid off Egypt not to attack you in 1979) there was no strategic interest for the US still being served there. There certainly isn't today so why should the US taxpayer continue bankrolling you ?
 
HowardBThiname said:
You don't have the option of refusing.
You could always move to a country that does not send aid to Israel, I suppose.
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Why an affluent country with no formal alliance with the US is being given any aid in the first place was the point at issue ?
 
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X Factor said:
It's kind of interesting who your hate for Israel has you crawling into bed (figuratively) with. Wonder what else you agree with AS on.
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The nazi left and nazi right stand in the same spot but are looking in different directions. That is why they never notice one another.
 
flogger said:
Why an affluent country with no formal alliance with the US is being given any aid in the first place was the point at issue ?
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"Formal alliance," is just parsing of words. We have a Strategic Cooperation Agreement, signed in 1981, that is as close to an alliance as you can get - but without the label.

Israel is an important strategic asset for the US and we both have much in common, being democracies that promote equal rights, but because Israel is a strong Middle Eastern power - we need to keep that relationship strong.

Both the US and Israel have been the subjects of Arab terrorist strikes, which makes Israel our ally in that sense as well. When Israel took out Iraq's reactor in 81, it was of great benefit to the US and Israel also played a valuable role for us in the Cold War.

So yes, we keep them happy - and they continue to turn out some of the world's greatest scientific discoveries.

Not a bad deal at all.
 
"Formal alliance," is just parsing of words. We have a Strategic Cooperation Agreement, signed in 1981, that is as close to an alliance as you can get - but without the label.
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You have 'formal' alliances with many major powers but do not arm them at your taxpayers expense nor grant them immunity from sanction for their actions within the UN

Both the US and Israel have been the subjects of Arab terrorist strikes, which makes Israel our ally in that sense as well. When Israel took out Iraq's reactor in 81, it was of great benefit to the US and Israel also played a valuable role for us in the Cold War.
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Really ? How many Palestinian attacks has the US suffered then ? As far as the Cold War goes its over and Israels strategic utility ended for the US when the Soviets withdrew from the region in the 70s. It is now in fact your greatest liability

So yes, we keep them happy - and they continue to turn out some of the world's greatest scientific discoveries.
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It could fairly be argued that your ongoing relationship with Israel has been a catalyst for many the troubles you have in the region. Certainly the captured 9/11 attackers/planners made no bones about that fact

Not a bad deal at all.
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Until you normalise your relationship with Israel it will continue be the worst deal possible for you. You are in effect paying to make yourself a target
 
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flogger said:
You have 'formal' alliances with many major powers but do not arm them at your taxpayers expense nor grant them immunity from sanction for their actions within the UN

Really ? How many Palestinian attacks has the US suffered then ? As far as the Cold War goes its over and Israels strategic utility ended for the US when the Soviets withdrew from the region in the 70s. It is now in fact your greatest liability

It could fairly be argued that your ongoing relationship with Israel has been a catalyst for many the troubles you have in the region. Certainly the captured 9/11 attackers/planners made no bones about that fact

Until you normalise your relationship with Israel it will continue be the worst deal possible for you. You are in effect paying to make yourself a target
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What does "normalise your relationship with Israel" mean to you?

And what net affect would it have?
 
Fledermaus said:
What does "normalise your relationship with Israel" mean to you?

And what net affect would it have?
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Treating them just like any other developed nation by holding them accountable for their actions rather than bankrolling them . The effect being we might actually see a negotiated end to this regional conflict one day
 
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flogger said:
Treating them just like any other developed nation by holding them accountable for their actions rather than bankrolling them . The effect being we might actually see a negotiated end to this regional conflict one day
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Huh? You think the Arabs will stop hating the Jews if we stop bankrolling them?
 
flogger said:
Treating them just like any other developed nation by holding them accountable for their actions rather than bankrolling them . The effect being we might actually see a negotiated end to this regional conflict one day
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What do you mean by "holding them accountable for their actions"?

You can hold a nation accountable for their actions without an alliance... Ask Iraq.
 
flogger said:
Why are you bankrolling them in the first place which is the topic of this thread ?
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You mean why are WE bankrolling them? There are all kinds of reasons, most of which are probably in place to generate profits for wealthy Americans.
 
flogger said:
The big difference being Iraq didn't get off with ignoring UN resolutions Israel always does. Enter the US veto stage left
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Yes Iraq did, they also refused inspectors access, which I'll bet Iran will now do.
 
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