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If you label someone an anti-semite fraudulently, you risk creating one genuinely

new coup for you

Upper West Side Jacobin
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Frank, pointed, discussion and criticism of Israel in the West (and particularly in the US) has long been hampered by the specious conflation of criticism of Israel and anti-Zionism and genuine anti-Semitism.

The label of anti-semite is bandied about by the rightwing and the Israeli lobby with frequency. I think there are three distinct political and cultural reasons for this:

1)Calculated and conscious attempt to quiet dissent on the part of the Israeli lobby and control the framing of the Israeli-American relations debate. These interests want the debate to be "between the Palestinians and the Israelis which party is morally superior?" Obviously between the two most Westerners will choose the Israelis. What they don't want the debate to become is "what interests does the United States genuinely have in Israel and what interests and capital does it loose in supporting Israel?" This debate is slightly more rigorous.

Instead of the ease of condemning suicide bombers and Hamas it becomes "is supporting Israel worth the vast capital we invested in it? Is supporting Israel worth infuriating the entire Middle East? Is supporting Israel worth 9/11?" It no longer becomes "do you like Israel" it becomes "do you think Israel is a legitimate American concern?" Canada is a moral and friendly country, however most Americans would balk if the government attempted to spend the kind of money arming and protecting Canada (and expend the international good will if the rest of the world found Canada offensive) that it spends on Israel.

So the Israel lobby has to bank on anti-semitism to give its national project the facade of defeating a genuine evil.

2)Blatant partisan hackery of various Western rightwing groups. The right (although in the US, most of the left as well), for various cultural, economic and religious reasons is far more engendered towards blindly supporting Israel. However, I believe that the right finds attacking the left with the label of anti-semitism emotionally satisfying as well. The right has long suffered the left's labels of "racism" and "ignorance" and now it's been provided with an opportunity to attack the exact same academic and social institutions that have so long criticized their extreme quarters. They revel in the ability to dismiss the lefts defense of "criticism of Israel without a criticism of Jews" as glibly as the left dismissed their "defense of state's rights without a defense of segregation."

3)Legitimate engrained cultural tendencies within the Jewish community. For most of recorded history the Jews were legitimately the a nationless people of victims. Many Jews and many among the right confuse the Jewish people and the Israeli national project. This allows Israel to cloak itself in the legitimate persecution of a race of people, rather then a nation of people. To a modern observer, with no knowledge of Jewish history, the contrast between Israel and the Palestinians is fairly simple. The Israeli's have cruise missiles, F-16s and tanks whereas the Palestinians have what are essentially over sized bottle rockets, smuggled weapons and nothing but their own mass to protect them. Clearly, Israel is not the victim. However, the Jewish people are still legitimately reeling from untold centuries of victimization. By obscuring the difference between an international Jew and a national Israeli instead of an Israeli soldier herding Palestinians into detention camps, we see European Jews being herded into death camps. This is not nationless victims, it is a nation of people who, rightly or wrongly, are pursuing their national interest with force.

So what happens with one of these operatives are used to label someone as an anti-semite? It closes the debate, but not in the way that the pro-Israeli forces intend to. Yes, the individual critical of Israel may be cowed into silence and swallow his criticism.

However this does not create a supporter of Israel, all it creates is a bitter individual, resentful that exterior forces have censored him.

To do this activates longstanding and ancient conspiracies theories regarding Jews in the media and national control.

When you wont allow people to freely discuss Israel's effect upon the United State's foreign policy without labeling them as anti-semites or terrorist supporters in public- they'll find another place to do it.

They'll find Stormfront, or a Klan meeting or a White Power skinhead group.

By forcing non anti-semetic people to cower and hide their legitimate criticisms of Israel you're forcing them to imbed themselves into the only environments where any (and all) criticism of Israel is allowed. And this can quickly transfer to a place where any (and all) criticism of the Jewish people are allowed.

The nation of Israel and its chauvinism has done more to create contemporary anti-semitism in the West then all the fringe hate groups combined.
 
The label of anti-semite is bandied about by the rightwing and the Israeli lobby with frequency.

Do you have some specific examples that we could discuss?

:2wave:
 
I agree that we should not be spending such vast amounts of capital on Israel (or any nation for that matter) but why would an accusation of anti-semitism force someone to swallow their criticism? Unless you are a pitifully weak debator and spineless to boot this tactic should pose no problem for you. Moreover, I haven't seen this tactic much employed, at least not here or in my personal experiences; this seems a bit overblown.
 
So what happens with one of these operatives are used to label someone as an anti-semite? It closes the debate, but not in the way that the pro-Israeli forces intend to. Yes, the individual critical of Israel may be cowed into silence and swallow his criticism.
I'm Jewish. I'm Israeli. I've been here for four years and I never utilize any of this "Jewish lobby" stuff you puff about.

Who does it here at DP? Anyone? Name some names.
 
Vader most recently, Bkhad ocassionally, TOT did it all the time.
TOT is long gone. I've never seen bhkad accuse anyone of being anti-Semitic. Vader goes with "terrorist sympathizer" rather than anti-Semitic.

There are some folks who love to bash Israel, not because they love Palestine, but simply because Israel is Israel. Folks attack the Vatican for much the same reason. It's an easy way to indirectly attack Catholics.

You sound like a little crybaby here. You're just going to have to toughen up a bit.
 
I have heard of this happening. I think it happened to Chomsky despite the fact he is Jewish but I'm not sure it happens to often and it seems to be limited to the US mostly. You don't really get it in Britain.
 
Thanks, new coup. I'm not sure if I agree with you on all points (but then my thoughts on the conflict are almost universally ambivalent), but the OP was carefully considered and well-written, I felt.
 
TOT is long gone. I've never seen bhkad accuse anyone of being anti-Semitic. Vader goes with "terrorist sympathizer" rather than anti-Semitic.

There are some folks who love to bash Israel, not because they love Palestine, but simply because Israel is Israel. Folks attack the Vatican for much the same reason. It's an easy way to indirectly attack Catholics.

You sound like a little crybaby here. You're just going to have to toughen up a bit.

I think you forgot to read this post

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ir-strikes-target-gaza-95.html#post1057866183
 
I find great irony, in NCFY showing disdain for painting people they don't agree with, with a broad generalized brush.
 
Saying that they were also wrong is different from saying that they deserved it, I'm sorry that you can't make this nuance
You're the first to cry a river when Palestinian civilians suffer. But when I show you the other side of the coin, your response?

But they were driving by settlements!

It's you who fail miserably at both nuance and compassion.
 
You're the first to cry a river when Palestinian civilians suffer. But when I show you the other side of the coin, your response?

But they were driving by settlements!

It's you who fail miserably at both nuance and compassion.

...says the one who does not give a damn when Israeli kids start a pogrom against Palestinian kids
 
...says the one who does not give a damn when Israeli kids start a pogrom against Palestinian kids
Show us that post punk.
 
Show us that post punk.

You post examples of Palestinians throwing stones at Israeli cars
=> I point out that Israeli are not innocent because that has happened in West Bank
=> You say that I approve it because I did not explicitely condemn it in this post

Laila posts an example of Israeli kids starting a kind of pogrom against Arab kids
=> You point out that the intent of this thread is to bash Israeli
=> You didn't condemn the Israel kids neither. According to your own reasoning, then you must approve the pogrom?
 
Couldn't find any such post huh? Because no such post exists. Weasel.
 
Originally Posted by new coup for you
So what happens with one of these operatives are used to label someone as an anti-semite? It closes the debate, but not in the way that the pro-Israeli forces intend to. Yes, the individual critical of Israel may be cowed into silence and swallow his criticism.

I think that you have it backwards.
Those that are pro-Israeli get attacked as Zionist far more often than anybody anti-Israel gets attacked.
 
Couldn't find any such post huh? Because no such post exists. Weasel.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/44690-i-kicked-arab-i-stepped-his-head.html#post1057945599

read the 15 first posts of this thread and you'll see that

You post examples of Palestinians throwing stones at Israeli cars
=> I point out that Israeli are not innocent because that has happened in West Bank
=> You say that I approve it because I did not explicitely condemn it in this post

Laila posts an example of Israeli kids starting a kind of pogrom against Arab kids
=> You point out that the intent of this thread is to bash Israeli
=> You didn't condemn the Israel kids neither. According to your own reasoning, then you must approve the pogrom?


Oh and you don't need to add words like "asshole", "weasel", "punk" or "euromope" at the end of your posts, you know!
 
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Moderator's Warning:
I know this is a volatile subject, but let's keep our emotions in check and cease the namecalling.
 
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/44690-i-kicked-arab-i-stepped-his-head.html#post1057945599

read the 15 first posts of this thread and you'll see that

You post examples of Palestinians throwing stones at Israeli cars
=> I point out that Israeli are not innocent because that has happened in West Bank
=> You say that I approve it because I did not explicitely condemn it in this post
Right up there where I bolded your text. What you are saying in effect here is that it is okay for Israeli civilians to be attacked simply because they are driving through the West Bank. Strange bub, because you argued just the opposite when a Palestinian in a car had rocks thrown at him as he drove through an Israeli city. Remember the riot thread?

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways bub.

Laila posts an example of Israeli kids starting a kind of pogrom against Arab kids
=> You point out that the intent of this thread is to bash Israeli
=> You didn't condemn the Israel kids neither. According to your own reasoning, then you must approve the pogrom?
I didn't say anything about that aspect because my posts in that thread specifically addressed the thread theme rather than the thread content. This is something you still can't seem to grasp even though everyone else - including Laila - easily grasped.

Oh and you don't need to add words like "asshole", "weasel", "punk" or "euromope" at the end of your posts, you know!
Bah. I'm a Zionist, you're a Euromope. Touché. Here's a hanky []
 
There are some folks who love to bash Israel, not because they love Palestine, but simply because Israel is Israel. Folks attack the Vatican for much the same reason. It's an easy way to indirectly attack Catholics.

I agree, it a trend that can be seen outside of this board.

Some bash Israel automatically just because it's Israel it tends to be because of predjudices towards the inhabitants of Israel.

Saying that, there are also just as many people who attack Palestinians mainly because they have a form of hatred against Arabs or Muslims.
 
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Someone called me a "ni**er-lover" the other day and when I woke up this morning, I had an inexplicable desire to start rapping and shooting 3's.
 
Someone called me a "ni**er-lover" the other day and when I woke up this morning, I had an inexplicable desire to start rapping and shooting 3's.

I feel like doing those things all the time.
 
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