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If NATO is just a harmless organization, why is Russia so against it and the US back Ukraine joining it with everything we have? (1 Viewer)

ralfy said:
Right, so why did the U.S. continue what Clinton started? Might points by Wolfowitz help? He was one of several mentioned by Dave Smith, whose video you tried to implicitly dismiss earlier.
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Defense treaties aren't a threat.
 
Deuce said:
Defense treaties aren't a threat.
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Defense treaties are (at the minimum) an implicit threat to engage in warfare if attacked.
 
Geoist said:
NATO poses no threat to Russia so long as Russia doesn't invade NATO states. Not really that difficult to understand.
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Or other European democracies that don't happen to be in NATO, for that matter...
 
Geoist said:
NATO poses no threat to Russia so long as Russia doesn't invade NATO states. Not really that difficult to understand.
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At least you admit that NATO poses a threat. NATO very much depends on the US nuclear arsenal as a "deterrent," so NATO is very much a threat to many beings on Earth. Russia's nuclear arsenal is very much a threat to many beings on Earth, too.
 
Antiwar said:
If Russia and China had a "defensive alliance" (that very much relied on the Russian nuclear arsenal as its deterrence) on and near the borders of the US, the US would be okay with that?
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Sure

However what you are missing here is the IS is a democracy and those other two countries are not. This means we simply have a better system and simply are a better society.
 
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tacomancer said:
Ok, so?

It doesn’t matter what Clinton’s opinion was once he stepped down from office.
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Again, you're not paying attention. Clinton did not simply make an opinion.
 
tacomancer said:
That’s indeed what he did.
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You're still not paying attention. NATO enlargement took place.

It's pointless discussing this issue with you.
 
8085 said:
More than 200,000 military personnel have died so far in the war in Ukraine, yet the Biden speech claims it is all about nothing.

That Ukraine joining NATO posed no threat to Russia,

despite NATO Gen Sec stating that the objective of the conflict in Ukraine was to destroy as much Russian military might as possible,
to discredit Vladimir Putin, produce regime change in Russia with an aim of breaking up Russia into a number of small republics.

While the US is saying one thing, NATO is giving an entirely different story.

Which one is right?
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NATO, in this particular instnace.
 
8085 said:
More than 200,000 military personnel have died so far in the war in Ukraine, yet the Biden speech claims it is all about nothing.

That Ukraine joining NATO posed no threat to Russia,

despite NATO Gen Sec stating that the objective of the conflict in Ukraine was to destroy as much Russian military might as possible,
to discredit Vladimir Putin, produce regime change in Russia with an aim of breaking up Russia into a number of small republics.

While the US is saying one thing, NATO is giving an entirely different story.

Which one is right?
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The russian propagandists are coming on this board for the election next year.

I've seen this since 2016. All of a sudden, new names pop up posting russian propaganda.

You russians need to start paying attention to your own nation and stop trying to damage democracy in other nations.

The Ukraine war has not worked out the way putin planned. Hundreds of thousands of russians have died. The russian military has been damaged. Possibly beyond repair for years to come. You're running out of tanks, trucks and ammunition. You can't get normal russians to sacrifice their lives in that meat grinder so putin has gone to your prisons to use criminals to carry out putin's war crimes and genocide on the Ukraine people.

Biden isn't weak and he's not trump. Biden loves freedom and democracy so he rallied most of the rest of the developed world to help Ukraine remain free and putin is losing. There's strength in numbers and teamwork. Your bombs aren't a match for the new PATRIOT systems that the US and I think it was England have given to Ukraine. Those PATRIOT systems are now shooting your bombs out of the sky.

www.newsweek.com

U.S. patriot system behind downing of Russian hypersonic missile: Ukraine

Putin had claimed Russia's hypersonic missiles were "invulnerable to today's missile defense and air defense systems."
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com

You can post all the russian propaganda you want, personally I will just scroll right by it.

Everyone who loves the United States will do the same thing.

You can't bring our nation down with your propaganda. We are way too smart for that. It worked once. We're on to you now.

We know that you russians have joined up with china to interfere with our elections. Your problem is that your game is old and most Americans aren't stupid.

You all may want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship but we Americans don't.
 
tacomancer said:
Sure
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Alright, an agreement! That's quite the accomplishment on DP.

tacomancer said:
However what you are missing here is the IS is a democracy and those other two countries are not. This means we simply have a better system and simply are a better society.
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Oh, bummer. You had to try to negate the agreement with something an irrelevance.

But, it's an interesting peephole view into how you believe/feel, and therefore why your reasoning on this issue is faulty.

Can you tell me why you thought that second part was relevant to the issue? Is it something like this?: 'I believe that the US has a better system and is a better society, therefore the US can militarily dominate the world, and that's a good thing, even though it threatens pretty much all of society, humanity, and nearly all beings and many things on Earth.' Because you sure seem to be overlooking the massive nuclear elephant in humanity's living room. Can we discuss this openly and honestly, or would discussing it openly and honestly interfere with your beliefs about the US?
 
Antiwar said:
Alright, an agreement! That's quite the accomplishment on DP.



Oh, bummer. You had to try to negate the agreement with something an irrelevance.

But, it's an interesting peephole view into how you believe/feel, and therefore why your reasoning on this issue is faulty.

Can you tell me why you thought that second part was relevant to the issue? Is it something like this?: 'I believe that the US has a better system and is a better society, therefore the US can militarily dominate the world, and that's a good thing, even though it threatens pretty much all of society, humanity, and nearly all beings and many things on Earth.' Because you sure seem to be overlooking the massive nuclear elephant in humanity's living room. Can we discuss this openly and honestly, or would discussing it openly and honestly interfere with your beliefs about the US?
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It is part of the US’s place to help other countries develop a more just system of government.
 
Liberal7360 said:
The russian propagandists are coming on this board for the election next year.

I've seen this since 2016. All of a sudden, new names pop up posting russian propaganda.

You russians need to start paying attention to your own nation and stop trying to damage democracy in other nations.

The Ukraine war has not worked out the way putin planned. Hundreds of thousands of russians have died. The russian military has been damaged. Possibly beyond repair for years to come. You're running out of tanks, trucks and ammunition. You can't get normal russians to sacrifice their lives in that meat grinder so putin has gone to your prisons to use criminals to carry out putin's war crimes and genocide on the Ukraine people.

Biden isn't weak and he's not trump. Biden loves freedom and democracy so he rallied most of the rest of the developed world to help Ukraine remain free and putin is losing. There's strength in numbers and teamwork. Your bombs aren't a match for the new PATRIOT systems that the US and I think it was England have given to Ukraine. Those PATRIOT systems are now shooting your bombs out of the sky.

www.newsweek.com

U.S. patriot system behind downing of Russian hypersonic missile: Ukraine

Putin had claimed Russia's hypersonic missiles were "invulnerable to today's missile defense and air defense systems."
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com

You can post all the russian propaganda you want, personally I will just scroll right by it.

Everyone who loves the United States will do the same thing.

You can't bring our nation down with your propaganda. We are way too smart for that. It worked once. We're on to you now.

We know that you russians have joined up with china to interfere with our elections. Your problem is that your game is old and most Americans aren't stupid.

You all may want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship but we Americans don't.
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That's an interesting conspiracy theory. Similar to my #64: Thanks for the interesting peephole view into how you believe/feel, and therefore why your reasoning on this issue is faulty.

What's faulty about your reasoning?

1. Well, I'm not a Russian propagandists, I'm anti-war.

2. The discussions about the popular war heated up when the popular war started, which was a bit over a year ago- 2022, not 2016.

3. The Russian interference in the US election was found mostly to be Russian trolls trying to influence people on social media. I believe that they concluded that the effects weren't very significant.

3a. The two things that got T**** elected were: (1) Some Republican purged the hell out of voter rolls using Interstate Crosscheck (2) The Electoral College unfairly gives different states vastly different levels of voting-power, and Republicans have ended up with the advantage, historically. These two things, which overlap, are the mechanisms that explain how T**** was elected. The other part, not really a mechanism, is that lots of people voted for T**** and didn't like Hillary.

4. Regarding your last sentence, "You all may want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship but we Americans don't." I don't want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship. I also don't want nuclear war and/or environmental collapse (both due to US militarism) to destroy human society and much more. It's pretty easy to understand that humanity is the closest it's ever been to nuclear war. Nuclear winter wouldn't be fun, to put it very mildly. The US and Russia have the two massive nuclear arsenals on Earth. Nuclear war could easily start every hour of every day. There's no magical "Russia wouldn't start a nuclear war" button. Sure, there's some deterrence, but when that deterrence fails, the consequences are surely going to be disastrous.

5. I see you put China in there, too. Have you watched the (free on Youtube) video "The Coming War On China"? People don't have to watch the whole thing to get the picture: The US is fomenting war with China, and that could very easily become a nuclear war.

5a. And no one is really doing anything to stop the alleged genocide currently ongoing in China.
 
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tacomancer said:
It is part of the US’s place to help other countries develop a more just system of government.
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So you do overlook the massive nuclear elephant in humanity's living room, and overlooked it in my comment.
 
Antiwar said:
So you do overlook the massive nuclear elephant in humanity's living room, and overlooked it in my comment.
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Ahh, you’re back to the nuclear annihilation schtick.
 
tacomancer said:
Ahh, you’re back to the nuclear annihilation schtick.
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Shtick? Is the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists a "shtick" organization?
 
Antiwar said:
So you do overlook the massive nuclear elephant in humanity's living room, and overlooked it in my comment.
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I like our nuclear umbrella

It protects us
 
Deuce said:
Of course that is the goal. Russia is the aggressor. We want the invader to lose.

Are you for the invasion? The war crimes?
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That's the biggest key for me. The continuous war crimes of Russia is a nonstarter for any desire to understand their reason for invasion. Nazis, indeed!
 
Antiwar said:
At least you admit that NATO poses a threat.
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As long as Russia isn't invading its NATO neighbors then NATO is not a threat.

Antiwar said:
NATO very much depends on the US nuclear arsenal as a "deterrent," so NATO is very much a threat to many beings on Earth.
Russia's nuclear arsenal is very much a threat to many beings on Earth, too.
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Okay?
 
Antiwar said:
If Russia and China had a "defensive alliance" (that very much relied on the Russian nuclear arsenal as its deterrence) on and near the borders of the US, the US would be okay with that?
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It would probably shut up the MAGAt Republicans constantly threatening to invade Mexico.
 
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