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If healthcare is a basic right....

I don't consider it a right like that.

But something that should be there in every civilized society.
How selfish do people need to be to not help others around them. I personally do not mind my taxmoney going to others because i know when i need to see the doctors and go hospital if seriously ill, it will be with other peoples money

And that's a more reasonable argument.

I think Celtic was focusing specifically on whether it was a RIGHT or not because people on this forum recently have been saying there a "Right to Health Care" with some even saying that Life in the statement "Right to Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness" equates to the RIGHT to have the government provide your health care.
 
so the kidney is voluntary, but the time I spend working to pay for your health care is involuntary?

Why the inconsistency in your position?

Some people have more money then they need. Others have more kidneys then they need. You clearly have no problem taking peoples excess money against their will, why not a kidney?

Here is the problem I have with the statement, "so the time I spend working to pay for your healthcare is involuntary?" You are already paying for everyone elses healthcare! That is what insurance premiums do! As more people use healthcare, premiums go up.

The difference with universal healthcare is that people who normally would not go for preventative medicine due to costs, would do so and overall healthcare costs would drop. Not to mention the fact that the pool of all citizens into one group would make individual cost drop dramatically. Taxes are already paying for poor people to go to the hospital, as well as to those who are uninsured and use the ER for general needs. If a hospital writes off losses, the rest of us pick-up the tab. The only difference we will see is cheaper cost to healthcare, everyone is covered, and companies will actually be able to give raises, since they will not be hampered down with the ridiculous cost of healthcare under private insurance companies.
 
...are there any healthcare services that are not a basic right?

What should society not guarantee to people in terms of healthcare?

Where is the line drawn where healthcare ceases to be a right? What are the limits of society's obligations in terms of healthcare?

As the Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly, there is no such thing as an absolute right; that's why my right to freedom of speech does not entitle me to burst into your home, jump on your living room table, and lecture about the importance of health care rights, or why people can't hold an impromptu march down main street celebrating their political or moral cause (they have to petition the city council first or whatever legal channel is in place in their region). The extent to which government can guarantee a right varies according to the degree available resources and other constraints confer capability for protecting a right. That's true for every single right, both in established legal theory and in practice; it would be nonetheless true for health care rights.
 
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...are there any healthcare services that are not a basic right?

What should society not guarantee to people in terms of healthcare?

Where is the line drawn where healthcare ceases to be a right? What are the limits of society's obligations in terms of healthcare?

As the Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly, there is no such thing as an absolute right; that's why my right to freedom of speech does not entitle me to burst into your home, jump on your living room table, and lecture about the importance of health care rights, or why people can't hold an impromptu march down main street celebrating their political or moral cause (they have to petition the city council first or whatever legal channel is in place in their region). The extent to which government can guarantee a right varies according to the degree available resources and other constraints confer capability for protecting a right. That's true for every single right, both in established legal theory and in practice; it would be nonetheless true for health care rights.

That's nice. Care to answer the questions asked? Where do you draw the lines--that's what I want to know.
 
Here is the problem I have with the statement, "so the time I spend working to pay for your healthcare is involuntary?" You are already paying for everyone elses healthcare! That is what insurance premiums do! As more people use healthcare, premiums go up.

The difference with universal healthcare is that people who normally would not go for preventative medicine due to costs, would do so and overall healthcare costs would drop. Not to mention the fact that the pool of all citizens into one group would make individual cost drop dramatically. Taxes are already paying for poor people to go to the hospital, as well as to those who are uninsured and use the ER for general needs. If a hospital writes off losses, the rest of us pick-up the tab. The only difference we will see is cheaper cost to healthcare, everyone is covered, and companies will actually be able to give raises, since they will not be hampered down with the ridiculous cost of healthcare under private insurance companies.

My insurance premium is voluntary, as in I choose to pay it. You are really stretching how premiums operate as well. I am paying into a pool that needs to charge enough to make a profit, while providing insurance to that pool, but it is also possibly that my own personal premiums will be much lower than the service I receive. This is simply insurance.

Your rhetoric about health care dropping is false too. I was discussing this in another thread, but the fee is not the main barrier with people neglecting to receive preventative colonoscopys for example. Providing health care with hidden costs will cause demand to go up, but that does not equate to a reduction in costly medicine, which would also now be provided at reduced/hidden costs. You want UHC and will apparently accept concepts that can’t be proven to support your desire

If overall dollars on health care go down, it is because of price fixing, not because of preventative maintenance.
 
That's nice. Care to answer the questions asked? Where do you draw the lines--that's what I want to know.

I don't bother drawing a line; there is an "equation" to this sort of thing. Governments are not dissimilar to corporations in that they are utilitarian in their policies; whereas profit is the good to be maximized by a business, the good to be maximized by a government are things like liberty, private property, safety, rights, etc -- the tensions between these goods, like between individual liberty and public safety and convenience, make this a difficult, imprecise job, all the more so because there are disagreements over where we should put the emphasis. Anyway, like private insurance, the government is going to apportion medical funds for treatment to all insured persons who meet the minimum qualifications (will endeavor for their own part to remain healthy, for example), and influence the distribution of medical resources (like kidneys) to those who are most probably going to survive. The main difference between a public option and a private option is that the public option doesn't have to turn a profit; it just has to remain deficit neutral. I consider that a good thing, since decisions can relate much more to the well-being of patients and acquiring the exact amount of money necessary to finance medical procedures rather than growth of the business and making a profit.
 
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Anyway, like private insurance, the government is going to apportion medical funds for treatment to all insured persons who meet the minimum qualifications (will endeavor for their own part to remain healthy, for example), and influence the distribution of medical resources (like kidneys) to those who are most probably going to survive. The main difference between a public option and a private option is that the public option doesn't have to turn a profit; it just has to remain deficit neutral. I consider that a good thing, since decisions can relate much more to the well-being of patients and acquiring the exact amount of money necessary to finance medical procedures rather than growth of the business and making a profit.
Except the qualification for receiving coverage under private insurance is payment of the premium....period. You pay the premium you get the coverage you paid for.

What coverage do you think people should get that they do not pay for?

Draw some lines, don't just talk in generalities. I am asking for specifics. Pretend you're the government--whom will you treat and whom will you not treat?
 
My insurance premium is voluntary, as in I choose to pay it. You are really stretching how premiums operate as well. I am paying into a pool that needs to charge enough to make a profit, while providing insurance to that pool, but it is also possibly that my own personal premiums will be much lower than the service I receive. This is simply insurance.

Your rhetoric about health care dropping is false too. I was discussing this in another thread, but the fee is not the main barrier with people neglecting to receive preventative colonoscopys for example. Providing health care with hidden costs will cause demand to go up, but that does not equate to a reduction in costly medicine, which would also now be provided at reduced/hidden costs. You want UHC and will apparently accept concepts that can’t be proven to support your desire

If overall dollars on health care go down, it is because of price fixing, not because of preventative maintenance.

What do you do for a living?
 
Except the qualification for receiving coverage under private insurance is payment of the premium....period. You pay the premium you get the coverage you paid for.

What coverage do you think people should get that they do not pay for?

Draw some lines, don't just talk in generalities. I am asking for specifics. Pretend you're the government--whom will you treat and whom will you not treat?

I can't draw lines because the line is going to shift and vary from person to person according to the government's capability to finance medical procedures and the patient's capability to make a recovery; it is intrinsically impossible not to speak in generalities. I suppose I will call the system effective and the health care right respected if it provides affordable health care, with service at least somewhat comparable to the efficiency we currently have, for most of the population unable to afford or only receiving minimal service in the private sector. If that occurs, I will consider the coverage good.

Also, there are plenty of technicalities (and more legitimate excuses) other than the premium insurance companies can appeal to in order to avoid paying for treatments.
 
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My insurance premium is voluntary, as in I choose to pay it. You are really stretching how premiums operate as well. I am paying into a pool that needs to charge enough to make a profit, while providing insurance to that pool, but it is also possibly that my own personal premiums will be much lower than the service I receive. This is simply insurance.

What would be the difference if you were covered under UHC than what you describe above? I almost never need my coverage for anything other than general checkups, as I live a healthy lifestyle. So, I and my employer are not getting our moneys worth, are we?
 
What do you do for a living?

I’m a computer programming consultant and have written numerous systems for health care companies dealing with Actuarial Science
 
What would be the difference if you were covered under UHC than what you describe above? I almost never need my coverage for anything other than general checkups, as I live a healthy lifestyle. So, I and my employer are not getting our moneys worth, are we?

I use my car insurance and home owners insurance even less…talk about not getting my money’s worth. If everyone gets their money’s worth, then the insurer will not be able to stay in business.
 
I can't draw lines because the line is going to shift and vary from person to person according to the government's capability to finance medical procedures and the patient's capability to make a recovery; it is intrinsically impossible not to speak in generalities.

If this is so, how, then, can healthcare be a basic right?

The right to keep and bear arms is a basic right--we can discuss with specificity what that right entails.

The right to free speech is a basic right--we can discuss with specificity what that right entails.

The right against self-incrimination is a basic right--we can discuss with specificity what that right entails.

The right to healthcare is a basic right--but we cannot discuss with specificity what that right entails????
 
I use my car insurance and home owners insurance even less…talk about not getting my money’s worth. If everyone gets their money’s worth, then the insurer will not be able to stay in business.

There you go. You have to pay anyway. What does it matter if your premiums continue to go up, or you simply pay a tax? You spend the money regardless.
 
I use my car insurance and home owners insurance even less…talk about not getting my money’s worth. If everyone gets their money’s worth, then the insurer will not be able to stay in business.

... which is what makes privatized insurance a scam by its very nature. At least with nationalized insurance, any profits can be re-apportioned to other programs or to reducing the debt.
 
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I’m a computer programming consultant and have written numerous systems for health care companies dealing with Actuarial Science

Oh, so you are biased?

Dude, he's a programmer....that means he's got six different opinions, based on four different sets of assumptions, addressing ten different contexts, and has a work flow diagram that makes it all perfectly clear!:lol:

(and as long as it's not written in Visual C++, it has a 60% chance of compiling and running correctly the first time!)

I can say these things because I build the systems that programmers crash...errr..."work on".
 
I use my car insurance and home owners insurance even less…talk about not getting my money’s worth. If everyone gets their money’s worth, then the insurer will not be able to stay in business.

My point is that an insurer is unneeded. All they are is a middle man there to grab a profit. They deny claims as they see fit, they dictate protocol to doctors, and they squeeze both ends for money to increase their profits. What is they're purpose? If they did not exist healthcare cost would drop, plain and simple, you cannot prove otherwise.
 
What would be the difference if you were covered under UHC than what you describe above? I almost never need my coverage for anything other than general checkups, as I live a healthy lifestyle. So, I and my employer are not getting our moneys worth, are we?
I hear the complaint of no return on investment alot from people, I usually tell them congratulations when they don't have to claim anything. When you think about it getting your investment on premiums back life isn't so good at the moment. Interestingly, HSAs are doing phenomenally well right now, I have seen term life improve with Return of Premium riders, etc., the companies are doing their best to keep customers happy, but it is a learning curve like everything else.

I use my car insurance and home owners insurance even less…talk about not getting my money’s worth. If everyone gets their money’s worth, then the insurer will not be able to stay in business.
Congratulations!

I’m a computer programming consultant and have written numerous systems for health care companies dealing with Actuarial Science
Actuaries are incredible in the insurance industry, especially life, Most of the time they are plus/minus one life off every year for estimates of what will kill who in which age group at a given frequency.
 
My point is that an insurer is unneeded. All they are is a middle man there to grab a profit. They deny claims as they see fit, they dictate protocol to doctors, and they squeeze both ends for money to increase their profits. What is they're purpose? If they did not exist healthcare cost would drop, plain and simple, you cannot prove otherwise.

You aren’t eliminating the insurer. You are just transferring the insurer from a entity consumed with profits to one consumed with power and electability.
 
My point is that an insurer is unneeded. All they are is a middle man there to grab a profit. They deny claims as they see fit, they dictate protocol to doctors, and they squeeze both ends for money to increase their profits. What is they're purpose? If they did not exist healthcare cost would drop, plain and simple, you cannot prove otherwise.
While I can agree with the principle that the insurer is an unnecessary and inefficient middleman, the notion that they are arbitrary and capricious in their denials is simply not true. There are things insurance covers, and things insurance does not cover--and sometimes what you need is not what you paid for.

Health insurance is a perverse enterprise, but its perversity stems from the cost-shifting environment in which it arose. It is a symptom, not the disease.
 
... which is what makes privatized insurance a scam by its very nature. At least with nationalized insurance, any profits can be re-apportioned to other programs or to reducing the debt.

You could argue the same with every single business. Rather than allow for profits, just nationalize it and internalize the gain/loss.
 
... which is what makes privatized insurance a scam by its very nature. At least with nationalized insurance, any profits can be re-apportioned to other programs or to reducing the debt.
When has the government ever done a "re-apportioning" of profit, which is the wrong word BTW since the government isn't investing anything, they are taking from citizens in the form of more taxation. Insurance isn't a scam, some companies are, if you have to buy a ton of riders just to cover probable or possible conditions or diseases chances are you have a bad policy. Nationalized healthcare is a scam because:
a) The only way to implement it is to eliminate private competition and thus force people into it to inflate numbers
b) it has no profit mechanism so it will always require more funding, which comes from taxes
c) it leads to diet and behavior control and rationing to protect "the people's" program
d) There is no way to get rid of it since there is no competition and no other options
e) Everyone will be in the same bad way when quality slips, except for the snake oil salesmen in Washington an a select few groups of contributors and political backers as exempted by law. Why do you think they don't want to join this "brilliant" system?
Sounds like a scam to me.
 
To be clear, I don't think there is anything wrong with privatization in most industries; indeed, I see limited utility in nationalizing the postal service. But since insurance is by its nature a business where profits are always going to far exceed the services provided, I can't help but consider privatized insurance a scam; other privatized industries make profit, sometimes large ones, and there is nothing wrong with that; but they are nearly always performing some kind of labor on behalf of their consumers, and their profits are smaller. In contrast, privatized insurance collects massive profits for doing nothing, most of the time.

I would trade a nationalized postal service for a nationalized insurance program any day.

When has the government ever done a "re-apportioning" of profit, which is the wrong word BTW since the government isn't investing anything, they are taking from citizens in the form of more taxation. Insurance isn't a scam, some companies are, if you have to buy a ton of riders just to cover probable or possible conditions or diseases chances are you have a bad policy. Nationalized healthcare is a scam because:
a) The only way to implement it is to eliminate private competition and thus force people into it to inflate numbers
b) it has no profit mechanism so it will always require more funding, which comes from taxes
c) it leads to diet and behavior control and rationing to protect "the people's" program
d) There is no way to get rid of it since there is no competition and no other options
e) Everyone will be in the same bad way when quality slips, except for the snake oil salesmen in Washington an a select few groups of contributors and political backers as exempted by law. Why do you think they don't want to join this "brilliant" system?
Sounds like a scam to me.

I hear many horror stories about nationalized health care (which aren't getting), but nationalized health care nations still rank higher than us in terms of efficiency. If you want horror stories, I can provide an abundance involving private insurance. For that matter, private insurance companies demand diet and behavior control, or they will refuse to finance certain operations.

As far as "re-apportioning" profit goes; what I mean is a nationalized insurance program has no need of the massive amounts of money it is making from, say, home owner's insurance, or car insurance, which most people never use, or rarely use, and never anywhere -- never anywhere near -- to the amount they pay. Since I don't think a privatized industry has the right to that kind of profit, I would prefer to see it in the government's hands.

Simply put, a service where you pay overwhelmingly more than what you receive is a scam. That sums up insurance pretty nicely; almost everybody is always paying far more than you receive.

With a nationalized insurance program, I imagine taxes would be far less. One rationale for nationalizing the postal service is that it provides a source of revenue besides taxation. With nationalized insurance, taxation could very well become a thing of the past.

Haha, not really. But it would be far reduced.
 
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