If Fascism was a literal ideology, then why are there no pro Hitler liberal politicians?

[aociswundumho]

Hitler and his cronies got started in the 'Freikorps', far-right groups of war vets who literally fought socialists and communists in the streets.

Hitler was never in the Freikorps. At that time Hitler was an elected representative in a communist government - the Bavarian Soviet Republic:

Adolf Hitler himself acted as a liaison between his army battalion – he had been elected "deputy battalion representative" – and the Soviet's Department of Propaganda. Both film footage and a still photograph appear to show Hitler marching in Eisner's funeral procession. He wears both a black mourning band and a red band showing support for the Far-Left Government.

 

[Bullseye]

So they were talking positively about hitler?

nope.

 

[Slartibartfast]

nope.

Then what we’re they doing in your opinion?

What quotes would you give to show what you think they were doing?

 

[uptower]

Don’t apply logic, Taco. The objective is to point fingers, call names and project.

 

[Bullseye]

Then what we’re they doing in your opinion?

What quotes would you give to show what you think they were doing?

Sorry, I'm not interested in getting into a debate about bullshit comments and mindless LW jabber.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry, I'm not interested in getting int a debate about bullshit comments and mindless LW jabber.

I get it, a lot of people prefer not to be in uncomfortable conversations where there are no easy answers to defend one’s tribe.

No worries.

 

[Bullseye]

I get it, a lot of people prefer not to be in uncomfortable conversations where there are no easy answers to defend one’s tribe.

No worries.

Others just don't want to get into conversations with clueless ideologues. Get that.

 

[Bullseye]

Then what we’re they doing in your opinion?

What quotes would you give to show what you think they were doing?

Your posting history would be a good start.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Your posting history would be a good start.

Your response doesn’t follow what you quoted in any logical way here.

 

[justoneman]

Ernst Rohm, leader of the S.A., was an original member of the socialist German Workers Party, as were many S.A. rank-and-file. Gregor Strasser, leader of the leftist Strasserist faction of the new Nazi party went down that night too. His brother Otto had already fled to Czechoslovakia, being better able to read the writing on the wall.
You're right, there were several stripes of Freikorps but Hitler and his group were definitely anti leftist and anti socialist. They were far-right. Once Hitler consolidated his power he supported Franco's conservative rebellion against the socialist government in Spain and had socialists confined in concentration camps.
But simple-minded rightists still insist on pointing to that 'S' and calling Nazism leftist.

Hitler was anti-Marxist. He hated the "Jewish Communist" Karl Marx.

 

[Yes_Minister]

Hitler was a national socialist, not a fascist. The Nazis never called themselves fascists, and Hitler would often criticize Mussolini.

Hitler was a social conservative:

Kinder, Küche, Kirche - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hitler claimed he was fighting Cultural Marxism, something conservatives claim to fight today:

Cultural Bolshevism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hitler was helped into power by conservatives like Franz Von Papen, the Social Democrats voted against the Enabling Act, conservatives voted for the Enabling Act.

And look at all the Neo Nazis who showed up to the Unite the Right, why did they show up to a Unite the Right rally if they are socialists?

Also the 14 points of fascism shows what fascism is really about:

Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism

One of the key questions today is can we use words like fascism with fidelity to the meaning of that word in world history?

www.openculture.com

 

[Athanasius68]

Ernst Rohm, leader of the S.A., was an original member of the socialist German Workers Party, as were many S.A. rank-and-file. Gregor Strasser, leader of the leftist Strasserist faction of the new Nazi party went down that night too. His brother Otto had already fled to Czechoslovakia, being better able to read the writing on the wall.
You're right, there were several stripes of Freikorps but Hitler and his group were definitely anti leftist and anti socialist. They were far-right. Once Hitler consolidated his power he supported Franco's conservative rebellion against the socialist government in Spain and had socialists confined in concentration camps.
But simple-minded rightists still insist on pointing to that 'S' and calling Nazism leftist.

The Strassers andHitler disagreed over tactics. They all agreed that the Jews were the problem and that Germany needed living space.

 

[aociswundumho]

Also the 14 points of fascism shows what fascism is really about:

A better way is to look at what the father of fascism actually did when he got into power.

 

[Yes_Minister]

A better way is to look at what the father of fascism actually did when he got into power.

Do you think Umberto Eco 's 14 points are wrong? Why?

Also, I don't believe the Right's supposed small-government ideology is anything but a lie, the Right believes in state power supporting social hierarchies they will adhere to or abandon this small-government ideology as much as it supports their desired hierarchies, its why there are quite a few right-wing Pinochet supporters on this forum. If the Right is for small government, explain their support for anti-LBGT laws, militarized police, the military-industrial complex, and social conservatism in general? Also, explain this:

Lee Atwater - Wikiquote

en.wikiquote.org

A lot of conservatives are fine with state power being used against black people in the name of law and order:




So this whole argument ''Fascism is left-wing because its big government'' is bunk, the Right loves big government that enforces social hierarchies and that's what fascists support.

Debating the merits of conservative small-government ideology is like debating the merits of the North Korean ideology of Juche, it's a fake ideology that is a cover for a different ideology. I barely ever see any conservatives apply their supposed small-government ideology that is a threat to the social hierarchies the conservative movement supports.

 

[aociswundumho]

Do you think Umberto Eco 's 14 points are wrong? Why?

1. Because most of them also apply to socialist governments.

2. Nazism and fascism are different ideologies.

3. Again, look at what Mussolini (who was a socialist his whole life) did when he got into power. He did everything leftists want done.

How about addressing this last point: If Mussolini was "far right", why did he do everything leftists want done? Why did a democratic socialist like FDR have a man-crush on Mussolini?

Also, I don't believe the Right's supposed small-government ideology is anything but a lie, the Right believes in state power supporting social hierarchies they will adhere to or abandon this small-government ideology as much as it supports their desired hierarchies, its why there are quite a few right-wing Pinochet supporters on this forum. If the Right is for small government, explain their support for anti-LBGT laws, militarized police, the military-industrial complex, and social conservatism in general?

You are talking about Republicans. The far right consists of people like Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, etc. - people who support individualism and free market capitalism.

So this whole argument ''Fascism is left-wing because its big government'' is bunk, the Right loves big government that enforces social hierarchies and that's what fascists support.

No, many Republicans like big government. Consider Reagan who was the quintessential Republican. He was a rapid drug warrior, supported lots of gun control, and FDR was one of his personal heroes.

 

[Nickyjo]

Hitler was a national socialist, not a fascist. The Nazis never called themselves fascists, and Hitler would often criticize Mussolini.

Just because Hitler built the autobahn, doesn’t mean he was a socialist as generally understood.

 

[lurchadams]

This guy is not a liberal, for example

Republican Lawmaker Says Homeless Should Look to Hitler for Inspiration

Tennessee State Sen. Frank Niceley gave a "history lesson" about how the homeless should look to Adolph Hitler for inspiration.

www.rollingstone.com

This girl isn;t a liberal,

‘Hitler was right on one thing,’ Republican congresswoman tells pro-Trump rally

Newly sworn-in House member from Illinois Mary Miller quotes Nazi leader's Mein Kampf at DC demonstration against certifying election results; ADL demands apology

www.timesofisrael.com

Certainly no liberals here,

GOP lawmakers will appear alongside white nationalists, Nazi apologists, at rally to support insurrectionists

A rally planned for Saturday at the Arizona Capitol that aims to support “political prisoners” of the January 6 insurrection will feature speakers who are white nationalists, have endorsed Nazi ideology and are facing charges for storming the U.S. Capitol alongside GOP legislators.

www.azmirror.com

Republicans project. It is they who almost made an evil moron king. It's so obvious - to everyone but them.

 

[lurchadams]

1. Because most of them also apply to socialist governments.

2. Nazism and fascism are different ideologies.

3. Again, look at what Mussolini (who was a socialist his whole life) did when he got into power. He did everything leftists want done.

How about addressing this last point: If Mussolini was "far right", why did he do everything leftists want done? Why did a democratic socialist like FDR have a man-crush on Mussolini?



You are talking about Republicans. The far right consists of people like Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, etc. - people who support individualism and free market capitalism.



No, many Republicans like big government. Consider Reagan who was the quintessential Republican. He was a rapid drug warrior, supported lots of gun control, and FDR was one of his personal heroes.

And yet it was you who were ready to cede all power to one man, Donald Trump. Seriously, how do you guys reconcile the evil he inflicts on us? It's really weird.

 

[Tigerace117]

1. Because most of them also apply to socialist governments.

2. Nazism and fascism are different ideologies.

3. Again, look at what Mussolini (who was a socialist his whole life) did when he got into power. He did everything leftists want done.

How about addressing this last point: If Mussolini was "far right", why did he do everything leftists want done? Why did a democratic socialist like FDR have a man-crush on Mussolini?



You are talking about Republicans. The far right consists of people like Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, etc. - people who support individualism and free market capitalism.



No, many Republicans like big government. Consider Reagan who was the quintessential Republican. He was a rapid drug warrior, supported lots of gun control, and FDR was one of his personal heroes.

Leftists wanted to be brutally murdered en masse, fight numerous colonial wars of conquest, and join Germany’s “Crusade Against Bolshevism”? Since when?

The far right is especially unhinged and clueless, yes. Thanks for reminding us.

 

[Grand Mal]

Hitler was never in the Freikorps. At that time Hitler was an elected representative in a communist government - the Bavarian Soviet Republic:

Bullshit.
Know why Hitler was imprisoned?

 

[iguanaman]

No socialist country has ever allowed independent unions, and Hitler was a communist in 1919:






There are many different kinds of socialism.

Nazism was socialism based on race, fascism was socialism with a nationalist bent.

So Hitler was a far right socialist then? The kind that round up all the "Bolsheviks" and put them in concentration camps like he promised the wealthy industrialists who financed his rise to power. Interesting....

Hitler's millionaire backers: how Germany's elite facilitated the rise of the Nazis​

When the story of the Third Reich is told, several explanations are put forward for how a party that gained only 2.6 per cent of votes in the German elections of 1928 was able to establish a radical dictatorship just five years later: the Wall Street Crash, the legacy of the First World War and Hitler’s charisma, to name a few. But one aspect that often receives less attention is the influence of Germany’s elite on the events of the late 1920s and early 1930s. According to University of Edinburgh historian Stephan Malinowski, contributor to a new BBC Two series, The Rise of the Nazis, a small group of powerful actors played a critical role in the creation of the Third Reich.

https://www.historyextra.com/period...man-elite-facilitated-rise-nazis-third-reich/

 

[Yes_Minister]

1. Because most of them also apply to socialist governments.

2. Nazism and fascism are different ideologies.

3. Again, look at what Mussolini (who was a socialist his whole life) did when he got into power. He did everything leftists want done.

How about addressing this last point: If Mussolini was "far right", why did he do everything leftists want done? Why did a democratic socialist like FDR have a man-crush on Mussolini?



You are talking about Republicans. The far right consists of people like Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, etc. - people who support individualism and free market capitalism.



No, many Republicans like big government. Consider Reagan who was the quintessential Republican. He was a rapid drug warrior, supported lots of gun control, and FDR was one of his personal heroes.

So Republicans don't count as right-wing, since when? This is such a ''No True Scotsman'' argument. So the millions of conservatives who support Bush and Trump and social conservativism don't count, why? Because I see millions of conservatives who support big government in the name of winning the culture wars and saying they don't count is foolish or dishonest.


Either you are incorrect about what true conservatism is or true conservatism is such a small group it's irrelevant and not worth paying attention to. I believe it's the former, I saw a lot of Libertarians supported the War on Terror back in the day, including Thomas Sowell.

A lot of Libertarians played footsies with the alt-right:

The Insidious Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline

Is it just a phase they go through—or is there something about libertarianism that attracts, well, uh, you know, racist kooks?

www.thedailybeast.com

We also have Libertarian Stefan Molyneux, who believes in race science and is a cult leader, he claims to believe in the free market, but also claims black people are naturally inferior to whites, what are Libertarians doing to combat people like him?

Stefan Molyneux - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The opposite of equality is not freedom, its hierarchy, you can't say you believe in freedom for all and then turn a blind eye to race science promoters like Molyneux or someone like Ron Paul promoting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories:

Ron Paul tweets extremely racist and anti-Semitic cartoon - later claims it wasn't him

***

www.haaretz.com

You can't treat the current system as a fair meritocracy and then pretend stuff like redlining and systemic racism never existed, if you do you are promoting social hierarchies, not freedom.

 

[aociswundumho]

Just because Hitler built the autobahn, doesn’t mean he was a socialist as generally understood.

Socialism is public control over the means of production. Hitler's government controlled the German economy to the same extent as Lenin's did over the Russian economy but he did it in a different way. Socialism comes in many different varieties and there are many different ways to get the same result.

You mention the autobahn, but the list is very long. One example is the state-owned Reichswerke Hermann Goring:

By the end of 1941 the Reichswerke became the largest company in Europe and probably in the whole world, with a capital of 2.4 billion reichsmarks and about half a million workers.[8]

Hitler could never have done what he did without complete control over the economy.

 

[Nickyjo]

Socialism is public control over the means of production. Hitler's government controlled the German economy to the same extent as Lenin's did over the Russian economy but he did it in a different way. Socialism comes in many different varieties and there are many different ways to get the same result.

You mention the autobahn, but the list is very long. One example is the state-owned Reichswerke Hermann Goring:



Hitler could never have done what he did without complete control over the economy.

Perhaps I am too influenced by the democratic tendencies that I see in modern socialists, who after all, refer to themselves as “Democratic Socialists.”

 

[Hamish Howl]

fascism was socialism with a nationalist bent.

wut