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I have to ask.

Chuz Life

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"

If it's just a Red Herring, I have to admit,.... it's a persistant and prevailing one as I see it everywhere.

If I were a woman (I'm male) and I wanted to get an abortion,... for whatever reason i felt it was justified,.... I don't think I would much care if the 'thing' I am aborting might feel pain, move, think or suffer on any level.

So, I have to ask; "Why is this an issue?"
 

majora$$hole

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"

If it's just a Red Herring, I have to admit,.... it's a persistant and prevailing one as I see it everywhere.

If I were a woman (I'm male) and I wanted to get an abortion,... for whatever reason i felt it was justified,.... I don't think I would much care if the 'thing' I am aborting might feel pain, move, think or suffer on any level.

So, I have to ask; "Why is this an issue?"
i think the "feel pain", "self aware" arguements are maybe a little far for me that is why i advocate the start of brain function as a point from where a human begins life. whether they can feel pain or are self aware is not the point again we don't define death as when someone can nolonger feel pain it's when the brain no longer functions.
 

Chuz Life

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i think the "feel pain", "self aware" arguements are maybe a little far for me that is why i advocate the start of brain function as a point from where a human begins life. whether they can feel pain or are self aware is not the point again we don't define death as when someone can nolonger feel pain it's when the brain no longer functions.
Can you provide a reference which supports this belief?

A definition that says "personhood requires brain function?"

Or is this just an arbitrarily decided point where you think the line should be drawn?
 

majora$$hole

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Can you provide a reference which supports this belief?

A definition that says "personhood requires brain function?"

Or is this just an arbitrarily decided point where you think the line should be drawn?
nope, i just think we only need ONE standard to determine when someone starts and stops liiving. and the standard 48 states have decided that is the point of death is the brain and not the body stops functioning. and i think that standard should be the same for when life begins.
 

Chuz Life

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Can you provide a reference which supports this belief?

A definition that says "personhood requires brain function?"

Or is this just an arbitrarily decided point where you think the line should be drawn?
nope, i just think we only need ONE standard to determine when someone starts and stops liiving. and the standard 48 states have decided that is the point of death is the brain and not the body stops functioning. and i think that standard should be the same for when life begins.
Well at least you're honest.

And to think I almost put you on ignore because you (your style and your nick) come off like a trolling sock-puppet.

And, while I disagree with your take on the matter,... I do appreciate your desire for a simple definition every bit as much as I appreciate your honesty and candor.

As someone who has dealt with both ends,.... having a preemie baby, a wife with Toxemia, and my 2nd wife in a coma after 45 minutes of CPR,.... I have a better grasp than I used to about the differences between when a life begins and when it ends.

If you can stomach drawing such lines and living with other's arbitrarily drawn lines?

Great,.... that's fine for you.

I can't do the same and I refuse to be held to them.
 
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iangb

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"

If it's just a Red Herring, I have to admit,.... it's a persistant and prevailing one as I see it everywhere.

If I were a woman (I'm male) and I wanted to get an abortion,... for whatever reason i felt it was justified,.... I don't think I would much care if the 'thing' I am aborting might feel pain, move, think or suffer on any level.

So, I have to ask; "Why is this an issue?"
Firstly: Person: 4. Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being.

Secondly: A question I've asked you several times now. How come Lakshmi is considered to be one 'person', but Abigail and Brittany are considered to be two?

Thirdly: As Major pointed out, brain function is very closely linked to whether someone's considered 'alive' or not.
 
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Chuz Life

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"

If it's just a Red Herring, I have to admit,.... it's a persistant and prevailing one as I see it everywhere.

If I were a woman (I'm male) and I wanted to get an abortion,... for whatever reason i felt it was justified,.... I don't think I would much care if the 'thing' I am aborting might feel pain, move, think or suffer on any level.

So, I have to ask; "Why is this an issue?"
Firstly: Person: 4. Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being.

Secondly: A question I've asked you several times now. How come Lakshmi is considered to be one 'person', but Abigail and Brittany are considered to be two?

Thirdly: As Major pointed out, brain function is very closely linked to whether someone's considered 'alive' or not.
Your "first" point? Too vague. Are you suggesting that definition number 4. negates all the others? If so, why are any of the other definitions even listed?

To your second point? I don't see where your question answers mine in the OP. Nice try to divert the thread though.

To your third point,... The fallacy of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" is a very easy one to fall into,... but it's a fallacious argument just the same. Just because 'brainwaves' can be (and for the most part ARE) used as indicators of life when it comes to someone who is near death,.... that doesn't in and of itself mean that they were not 'alive' in their earliest days prior to when their brainwaves first began.

Does it.
 
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iangb

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Your "first" point? Too vague. Are you suggesting that definition number 4. negates all the others? If so, why are any of the other definitions even listed?
This directly contradicts your original statement: "No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.. It shows directly "where this line of thinking comes from".

To your second point? I don't see where your question answers mine in the OP. Nice try to divert the thread though.
If you could answer the question, you'd see why it is incredibly relevant to the OP. It's just a shame that I'm not sure you ever will.

Just because you're not going to do it yourself; I'll answer it for you. The difference is that Abigail and Brittany have two seperate self-awarenesses, feel pain seperately from each other and, as such, are considered to be two different people. Lakshmi, on the other hand, only has one self-awareness and is therefore considered to be one person. Extrapolate that back further and you'll see that something without any self-awareness is not considered a person at all.

Number of self-awarenesses = number of people. Last time I talked about this I included evidence that this is causing real legal issues where someone with Multiple Personality Disorder uses it as a defence; there's indecision on whether one personality can be punished for the actions of another (and, worse, those that abuse such a defence).

To your third point,... The fallacy of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" is a very easy one to fall into,... but it's a fallacious argument just the same. Just because 'brainwaves' can be (and for the most part ARE) used as indicators of life when it comes to someone who is near death,.... that doesn't in and of itself mean that they were not 'alive' in their earliest days prior to when their brainwaves first began.

Does it.
From your link, the Ad Hoc fallacy is when causality is inferred where no such causal link actually exists. But it's a fact that there is a causal link between someone being pronounced permenantly brain dead and someone being pronounced legally/actually dead. As such, this doesn't match that fallacy.

If brain activity is the difference between life and death, then yes, it does mean exactly that.
 

jallman

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"
Rationality. Reason. An examination of moral consequence. :shrug:

If it's just a Red Herring, I have to admit,.... it's a persistant and prevailing one as I see it everywhere.

If I were a woman (I'm male) and I wanted to get an abortion,... for whatever reason i felt it was justified,.... I don't think I would much care if the 'thing' I am aborting might feel pain, move, think or suffer on any level.
That may be a difference between you and me. I am a compassionate person who holds the suffering of others in high regard when I am making a decisions. You may not value compassion as much as I do.

So, I have to ask; "Why is this an issue?"
Again, it is an examination fo where moral consequence begins. It also has to do with human empathy and our natural capacity to wish to remove or avoid the suffering of others.
 

Chuz Life

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Good posts,... work happens and little time to read them, let alone respond.
 

Chuz Life

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"
Rationality. Reason. An examination of moral consequence. :shrug:
I had to make time to ask this.

Do you mean to suggest that I myself (and others who are anti-elective abortion) are neither rational, reasonable or that we have no grasp of 'moral consequences?"
 

jallman

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I had to make time to ask this.

Do you mean to suggest that I myself (and others who are anti-elective abortion) are neither rational, reasonable or that we have no grasp of 'moral consequences?"
I did not say that at all. But you asked why others come to their conclusions and I gave you an answer from the perspective of one who has reached those conclusions. I made no condemnation of how you think you came to your own conclusions.
 

mac

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"

If it's just a Red Herring, I have to admit,.... it's a persistant and prevailing one as I see it everywhere.

If I were a woman (I'm male) and I wanted to get an abortion,... for whatever reason i felt it was justified,.... I don't think I would much care if the 'thing' I am aborting might feel pain, move, think or suffer on any level.

So, I have to ask; "Why is this an issue?"
Personally, I think it's an excuse. Kinda like a second round in the gun. If it can be determined that a fetus is not a human being up to a certain point that makes removing it no different than removing a cancerous lump, or an appendix.
 

iangb

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Personally, I think it's an excuse. Kinda like a second round in the gun. If it can be determined that a fetus is not a human being up to a certain point that makes removing it no different than removing a cancerous lump, or an appendix.
...however, this is an ad hominem attack (and one which has been brewing for the last few days, in fact) and as such is largely irrelevant (not to mention false!).
 
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mac

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...however, this is an ad hominem attack which has been brewing for the last few days, and as such is largely irrelevant (not to mention false!).
It's not an attack, it's my opinion on why it's used in the abortion debate. How is it false?
 

iangb

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It's not an attack, it's my opinion on why it's used in the abortion debate. How is it false?
It's false because in this thread (and others), plenty of reasons have been given; none of which matches your version. Seeing as it's our knowledge of our reasons vs your guesses at our reasons, our knowledge wins out.
 

prometeus

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There are now (and have been in the past),... multiple conversations on the abortion issue that have been oriented around the moment that a fetus begins to 'feel pain' or becomes 'self aware.'

No definition of 'person' or personhood that I have found so far has either the ability to feel pain or even 'sentience' as a requirment for the definition or the word (person) to apply.

So, I have to ask; "Where does this line of thinking come from?"

If it's just a Red Herring, I have to admit,.... it's a persistant and prevailing one as I see it everywhere.

If I were a woman (I'm male) and I wanted to get an abortion,... for whatever reason i felt it was justified,.... I don't think I would much care if the 'thing' I am aborting might feel pain, move, think or suffer on any level.

So, I have to ask; "Why is this an issue?"
I must ask first, how did you come up with the connection between personhood and pain? I do not believe that there is any connection, at least that is relevant to the abortion issue.
Many people are of the belief that even if they support the legal status of abortion, they wish to make sure that if it is done it should not cause pain or suffering to the fetus.
 

Chuz Life

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I had to make time to ask this.

Do you mean to suggest that I myself (and others who are anti-elective abortion) are neither rational, reasonable or that we have no grasp of 'moral consequences?"
I did not say that at all. But you asked why others come to their conclusions and I gave you an answer from the perspective of one who has reached those conclusions. I made no condemnation of how you think you came to your own conclusions.
I see,.... well unless you are claiming we are both correct in our conclusions,... I fail to see how you are not making the suggestion I mentioned (that one of us is incorrect).
 
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jallman

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I see,.... well unless you are claiming we are both correct in our conclusions,... I fail to see how you are not making the suggestion I mentioned.
If it's an argument you are looking for, Chuz, you aren't going to find it here today. I suggest you drop this feigned offense now and let the conversation carry on in an amicable manner.
 

Chuz Life

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I see,.... well unless you are claiming we are both correct in our conclusions,... I fail to see how you are not making the suggestion I mentioned.
If it's an argument you are looking for, Chuz, you aren't going to find it here today. I suggest you drop this feigned offense now and let the conversation carry on in an amicable manner.
I'm certainly not offended.

I think we are just now getting to the root of our differences on this aspect.

You mentioned that you arrive at your conclusion that a child's life begins at 'brain activity' by way of 'rationality, reason and an examination of the moral consequences.'

Many who have arrived at a completely different conclusion claim to use the same methods.

So, again.... unless you are claiming we are both correct,.... you are (whether you intend to or not) implying that one of us is incorrect.

Are you claiming we are both correct in our conclusions about when a child's life begins?

Or no?
 

iangb

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I think we are just now getting to the root of our differences on this aspect.

You mentioned that you arrive at your conclusion that a child's life begins at 'brain activity' by way of 'rationality, reason and an examination of the moral consequences.'

Many who have arrived at a completely different conclusion claim to use the same methods.

So, again.... unless you are claiming we are both correct,.... you are (whether you intend to or not) implying that one of us is incorrect.

Are you claiming we are both correct in our conclusions about when a child's life begins?

Or no?
It is possible for two different people to have two different rationales, different reasons, or different moral weightings, yes? That's the nature of subjectivity...

Just because I don't agree with your reasons doesn't mean that you don't have them

EDIT: But enough of this. On-topic!
 
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Chuz Life

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I'm certainly not offended.

I think we are just now getting to the root of our differences on this aspect.

You mentioned that you arrive at your conclusion that a child's life begins at 'brain activity' by way of 'rationality, reason and an examination of the moral consequences.'

Many who have arrived at a completely different conclusion claim to use the same methods.

So, again.... unless you are claiming we are both correct,.... you are (whether you intend to or not) implying that one of us is incorrect.

Are you claiming we are both correct in our conclusions about when a child's life begins?

Or no?
It is possible for two different people to have two different rationales, different reasons, or different moral weightings, yes? That's the nature of subjectivity...

Just because I don't agree with your reasons doesn't mean that you don't have them

EDIT: But enough of this. On-topic!
I am on topic, as I am speaking not only to the rationale, the reasoning and the moral consequences,... but also to the conclusions drawn as well.

Yourself, Jallman and others arrive at the conclusion that a child's life begins at 'brain activity' and I (and my ilk) for the most part conclude that the child's life begins much earlier (conception.)

I don't see how the case can be made that we are both correct in our conclusions.

So, I'll ask again.... Are we both correct in our conclusions for when a child's life begins or is one of us factually incorrect?
 
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Aunt Spiker

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Why are some people so opinionated on the issue that they obsess over it and restate their quandaries and beliefs as if it's new - over and over?

Aside that - to me, personally, it doesn't matter.
 

Chuz Life

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Why are some people so opinionated on the issue that they obsess over it and restate their quandaries and beliefs as if it's new - over and over?

Aside that - to me, personally, it doesn't matter.
If you read a little more into it,... I think we are not only breaking a little bit of new ground here,... but we are doing so in a quite productive way.

And if something 'doesn't matter' to you?

Where in the hell does the need to announce it come from?
 

prometeus

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The definition of life has not been established and short of both sides agreeing on that it is possible that cherries and watermelons are being compared while arguing which is a legume?
 
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