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I dont agree with the Supreme Court, but they have a point...

I mean, abortion isnt mentioned in the Constitution, so technically it was beyond their scope of responsibilities, right?

What's wrong with giving the decision on it over to the states? This weakens the grip of federal power over the whole country, which is a good thing.

Im pro-choice, btw. Just in case anyone wants to know.
Would you say that any constitutional rights not mentioned in the constitution (unenumerated rights) should no longer be protected?

That the right to travel, presumption of innocence, and even the right to marry, all 9th amendment rights, should be subject to the will of state governments instead of protected rights for all Americans?

Why even have a 9th amendment? Well of course James Madison already answered that question but the courts seem not to care.
 
November is also a few months after possible vacation related rolls in the hay, and many may have to contemplate the hard reality of this latest ruling.

There's a problem though. Women who have had an abortion usually don't tell everyone about it. You can count on their vote for the pro-choice party, but their families? Their friends or former partners?

Compare this to some other issue which only a few people have immediate impact from. Let's say, banning bump stocks on guns. Someone who enjoys that "full auto feel" at the gun range is going to tell EVERYONE THEY MEET about how their rights have been infringed by a ban on bump stocks. At least some people are going to take them seriously and it will affect their vote.

It's not wrong, that abortion is a private thing. But it doesn't help politically.
 
Well the 10th says that the feds have only powers delegated to it by the Constitution, and since abortion isnt mentioned in the document, it means their interpretation is correct.

It isn't about powers delegated to the Federal Government, though. It's about the powers that aren't delegated to the Feds and not prohibited to the States - the reserved powers of the 10th Amendment. How those reserved powers are delegated to the States and to the people is a controversy arising from the Constitution, is it not?
 
I mean, abortion isnt mentioned in the Constitution, so technically it was beyond their scope of responsibilities, right?

What's wrong with giving the decision on it over to the states? This weakens the grip of federal power over the whole country, which is a good thing.

Im pro-choice, btw. Just in case anyone wants to know.

With respect:

"Not mentioned in the constitution" is not how rights work. The human right to breathe isn't in the constitution. The human right to travel isn't in the constitution. Does that mean that those rights should be up to the states to decide? Absolutely not.

The constitution was the deed to the stolen land and the document that outlined the federal government. They tacked on some bull:poop: like the bill of rights to make the sale. The constitution was and is a con job. Does that mean that I don't believe in rights? Absolutely not. I believe in many more rights and ethics than the con job constitution mentions.

What's wrong with outlawing abortion in many states?! Seriously? No, not seriously. You're not a serious commenter.
 
Mixed feelings about the whole business... or to be precise, mixed thoughts.

I do rather hate to see more fuel thrown on the fire just now, in a time when the country is so divided and hostile.
The fire though was set by one side, the left one and so to the extent this causes more division I feel no responsibility for it.
 
With respect:

"Not mentioned in the constitution" is not how rights work. The human right to breathe isn't in the constitution. The human right to travel isn't in the constitution. Does that mean that those rights should be up to the states to decide? Absolutely not.

Yes. The right to travel is derived from the right of free association, which itself is derived from the right to "assemble" in the first amendment.

But it is a natural right also. Not speaking as a lawyer, but rights seem to "grow outward" from the enumerated rights, where they are on fertile ground of natural rights. Government needs a compelling state (or public) interest to imprison anyone within state borders, town precincts or whatever. The right to LEAVE is a natural right.

The constitution was the deed to the stolen land and the document that outlined the federal government. They tacked on some bull:poop: like the bill of rights to make the sale. The constitution was and is a con job. Does that mean that I don't believe in rights? Absolutely not. I believe in many more rights and ethics than the con job constitution mentions.

I have a less cynical view of the US constitution. The land was stolen already, but they had the opportunity then to prevent further theft of land in the form of new states.

But then most of North America would speak French :confused:
 
I have a less cynical view of the US constitution. The land was stolen already, but they had the opportunity then to prevent further theft of land in the form of new states.

With respect:

"We had to register the stolen car so it wouldn't be stolen again." :ROFLMAO:
 
I agree, though the country has been divided for decades now, so the timing will never be right.


But there is no mention of abortion in the Constitution, so how can SCOTUS make a judgement on it? Their point is that the issue is for others to decide on, not them.

The 9th amendment was conceived and written for the very purpose of protecting those “no mention” rights in the “Constitution.”

The majority is correct to observe the prior Court decisions used the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment to create rights despite the fact the plain text doesn’t do so. However, to declare the “issue is for others to decide” isn’t accurate, the 9th amendment protects unenumerated rights.
 
Unfortunately, we are living in the political era of "ends justifies the means" and might makes right. The SCOTUS ruling is out of lock and step with what the general population of the U.S. supports. They are de facto representing a fringe minority. Nobody seems to care about due process anymore. We are seeing the beginning of the end for the United States as an institution. That is my non-partisan opinion. When institutions like SCOTUS can unilaterally decide to turf the decades of tradition that came before them, then we have gone off the grid. At this point, some kind of civil collapse is inevitable.

What you’ve focused upon above is irrelevant as to what the text of the Constitution says. After all, SCOTUS is reading the text of the Constitution, and polling data, what you perhaps mischaracterize as “fringe,” and misplaced “ends justifies the means" and might makes right” doesn’t inform anyone as to what the text of the Constitution says.

The majority was right to say the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment doesn’t protect a liberty interest creating a privacy right to have an abortion. The plain text itself doesn’t protect rights at all but described how liberty, property, and life can be taken away. Nothing you’ve said demonstrates this part of the opinion was incorrect.

Regardless, the majority opinion has a flaw. The flaw is the text of the 9th amendment, and not your considerations.
 
The Constitution also does not mention the unborn. We cannot enumerate every important right and issue explicitly in the Constitution (I say that not even accounting for the fact that the Constitution is virtually impossible to amend on any issue where there is even moderate regional disagreement).

That's why we have broad concepts in the Constitution like due process and equal protection. The due process clause says no one can be deprived of liberty without due process of law. Control over one's body unquestionably is an aspect of liberty. In order to deprive women of the liberty of control of their own bodies, there must be damn good justification, and I do not see how there is any justification for criminalizing abortion from the moment of fertilization. The interests of a day-old fetus with no organs let alone a will, and a fully grown woman, are not even remotely in the same universe, and no State has a valid interest in using women as incubators.

Not bad but the due process clause, specifically the phrase “due process of law” originally didn’t mean or refer to liberty interests of such importance that strict scrutiny applied. The phrase “due process of law” merely refers to “process” or “procedural” steps to take away liberty. Hence, the majority opinion is correct by deciding the 14th amendment due process clause doesn’t protect unenumerated rights in the manner as stated by Roe.

The 9th amendment is the amendment expressly conceived to protest unenumerated rights, a flaw to the majority decision.
 
The 9th amendment was conceived and written for the very purpose of protecting those “no mention” rights in the “Constitution.”

The majority is correct to observe the prior Court decisions used the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment to create rights despite the fact the plain text doesn’t do so. However, to declare the “issue is for others to decide” isn’t accurate, the 9th amendment protects unenumerated rights.

I agree.

Without anyone taking up the cause of the 9th amendment it doesn't mean anything which clearly can't be it's intent.

The majority of the court is simply wrong in that a right not being mentioned specifically in the constitution gives states the rights to do as they please about it. It's not what the document says or means.
 
I mean, abortion isnt mentioned in the Constitution, so technically it was beyond their scope of responsibilities, right?

What's wrong with giving the decision on it over to the states? This weakens the grip of federal power over the whole country, which is a good thing.

Im pro-choice, btw. Just in case anyone wants to know.

What bothers me and should bother everyone is that is was settled law.

That means whatever personal belief the court has is now used for rulings.
 
With respect:

"We had to register the stolen car so it wouldn't be stolen again." :ROFLMAO:

You're disregarding that Native Americans lived in tribes, and thus there was not "one America" which was impacted by forcible colonization. Remaining Indian lands are mostly out West, for two reasons: it's arid and nearly useless land which the white man didn't want, but also because outright genocide became less fashionable.

The US Constitution could have included a "treaty" clause requiring that no one tribe ever again be deprived of more than half its land. New Zealand (admittedly a lot later) reached such an agreement with the Maori. Many Maori live on what the US would call "reservations" but it's not the shit land no-one else wants. Other than the passage of time making outright dispossession unfashionable, it's hard to see why the Maori got a much better deal than the Native American tribes.

You probably think of all colonialism as equally brutal and rapacious, but I disagree. The Dutch are remembered least fondly in their former colonies, followed by the British, then the French. They were all brutal, applying double standards of justice etc, but the French were the least greedy. Considering modern capitalist colonialism, it's not all the same either. Capitalists who build a big mine and pollute the drinking water, are hated much more than those who build a factory and employ local labor. Unlike military colonialists, capitalist colonialists temper their greed with a share for the locals, because they don't have the option of sending in redcoats ... and absent the rule of law their assets are very vulnerable.
 
What bothers me and should bother everyone is that is was settled law.

Isn't the standard of settled law, that it has so many subsequent decisions dependent on it that overturning it would be too much work for the court?

That means whatever personal belief the court has is now used for rulings.

Maybe we should start appointing Justices with no experience of law at all. Their bad decisions would be easier to undo, and they would occasionally hit on a good decision which is sound. Even random spattering would be better than ideological judges who can make a case out of cardboard and have it stand up.
 
Okay, but when the rights of the individual come into conflict with the rights of the State to make it's own laws, which do you figure should prevail?

You don't have a right to many things, activities, actions, decisions, behaviors.

You don't even have the freedom to drive a car without wearing a seatbelt.
 
You don't have a right to many things, activities, actions, decisions, behaviors.

You don't even have the freedom to drive a car without wearing a seatbelt.

Wearing or not wearing a seat belt is a pretty trivial matter, though.... are you suggesting that exercising individual rights should be similarly trivial? Would you classify any of the enumerated rights within the Constitution as trivial?

The way I figure it, you've got the sublime on one side, and you've got the ridiculous on the other. Admittedly, sometimes the line between the two can be pretty hard to discern.... but getting worked up about having to wear a seat belt is pretty obviously on the ridiculous side.
 
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Wearing or not wearing a seat belt is a pretty trivial matter, though.... are you suggesting that exercising individual rights should be similarly trivial? Would you classify any of the enumerated rights within the Constitution as trivial?

The way I figure it, you've got the sublime on one side, and you've got the ridiculous on the other. Admittedly, sometimes the line between the two can be pretty hard to discern.... but getting worked up about having to wear a seat belt is pretty obviously on the ridiculous side.

In a lot of states, the fine is only $25. Which makes the infringement of liberties even more trivial.

Some people think seatbelts are only to protect themselves, and thus should be left to "personal responsibility." In fact, seatbelts also protect others outside the vehicle. Flying bodies can kill.
 
Coney Barrett and Kavanaugh specifically said when they were being nominated that they had no interest in going after abortion, even though they themselves were pro-life. So they basically lied. This was always going to happen.
No, that isn't what they said.

https://www.heritage.org/life/comme...nt-lie-about-roe-v-wade-and-democrats-know-it

Kavanaugh: Senator, I said that it is settled as a precedent of the Supreme Court, entitled the respect under principles of stare decisis. And one of the important things to keep in mind about Roe v. Wade is that it has been reaffirmed many times over the past 45 years, as you know, and most prominently, most importantly, reaffirmed in Planned Parenthood v. Casey in 1992.
And as you well recall, senator, I know when that case came up, the Supreme Court did not just reaffirm it in passing. The court specifically went through all the factors of stare decisis in considering whether to overrule it, and the joint opinion of Justice Kennedy, Justice O’Connor and Justice Souter, at great length went through those factors. That was the question presented in the case.

Kavanaugh: Well, as a general proposition, I understand the importance of the precedent set forth in Roe v. Wade. So Roe v. Wade held, of course, and it reaffirmed in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, that a woman has a constitutional right to obtain an abortion before viability, subject to reasonable regulation by the state up to the point where that regulation constitutes an undue burden on the woman’s right to obtain an abortion.
And one of the reasons for that holding, as explained by the court in Roe, and also in Planned Parenthood v. Casey more fully, is along the lines of what you said, Sen. Feinstein, about the quote from Justice O’Connor. So that is one of the rationales that undergirds Roe v. Wade. It is one of the rationales that undergirds Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

Kavanaugh: In that draft letter, it was referring to the views of legal scholars, and I think my comment in the email is that might be overstating the position of legal scholars, and so it was not a technically accurate description in the letter of what legal scholars thought. At that time, I believe Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice Scalia were still on the court at that time.
But the broader point was simply that I think it was overstating something about legal scholars. And I am always concerned with accuracy, and I thought that was not quite accurate description of legal, all legal scholars because it referred to “all.”
To your point, your broader point, Roe v. Wade is an important precedent of the Supreme Court. It has been reaffirmed many times. It was reaffirmed in Planned Parenthood v. Casey in 1992 when the court specifically considered whether to reaffirm it or whether to overturn it. In that case, in great detail, the three-justice opinion of Justice Kennedy, Justice Souter and Justice O’Connor went through all the factors, the stare decisis factors, analyzed those, and decided to reaffirm Roe.
That makes Casey precedent on precedent. It has been relied on. Casey itself has been cited as authority in subsequent cases such as Glucksberg and other cases. So that precedent on precedent is quite important as you think about stare decisis in this context.
 
I mean, abortion isnt mentioned in the Constitution, so technically it was beyond their scope of responsibilities, right?

What's wrong with giving the decision on it over to the states? This weakens the grip of federal power over the whole country, which is a good thing.

Im pro-choice, btw. Just in case anyone wants to know.
The court is merely "easing" us into their preconceived radical religious belief that abortion is murder and women are murderers. They don't really care what is in the Constitution, they answer to a higher power and plan to be our high priests in charge of the reformation of America in their image. They are the Council of Trent all over again. God help us all.
 
So he lied. Nice to know.
He didn't lie, none of them lied. Problem is they articulted their answers at a level for beyond your grasp.

Every Supreme Court nominee who has referred to a precedent as “settled” has not only meant the same thing but has even defined it during their hearings. A precedent is settled because it is a precedent—that’s it, nothing more. Calling a precedent “settled” means only that it exists and says absolutely nothing about whether it could, or should, be unsettled. In Justice Samuel Alito’s January 2006 hearing, Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL) asked if Roe v. Wade “is the settled law of the land.” Alito responded that “settled” did not mean “it can’t be re-examined.” Instead, “settled” means that Roe is “a precedent that is entitled to respect as stare decisis.”

In her July 2009 hearing, Justice Sonia Sotomayor explained that “[a]ll precedents of the Supreme Court I consider settled law subject to the deference [which the] doctrine of stare decisis would counsel.” She gave the identical response about whether several individual precedents were settled: “That is the precedent of the Court, so it is settled law.” Asked about Casey in particular, Sotomayor repeated that it “is the precedent of the Court and settled in terms of the holding of the Court.”

Justice Elena Kagan followed the same script during her July 2010 hearing. District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago, holding that gun bans violated the Second Amendment, are, Kagan said, “settled law” and are “entitled to all the respect of binding precedent.” She put in the same “settled” category precedents such as Citizens United v. FEC, holding that restrictions on election-related expression violated the First Amendment; Gonzalez v. Carhart, finding the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act constitutional; and United States v. Lopez and United States v. Morrison, which held that two federal statutes exceeded Congress’ authority to regulate interstate commerce. Kagan explained to Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) that she did not distinguish between “precedent” and “settled law.” She was crystal clear: “What I mean to say when I use those phrases is, these are decisions of the court.”
 
The Constitution also does not mention the unborn. We cannot enumerate every important right and issue explicitly in the Constitution (I say that not even accounting for the fact that the Constitution is virtually impossible to amend on any issue where there is even moderate regional disagreement).
That is the whole point of this ruling. The SCOTUS can only rule on what's on the Constitution, so that means if you want them to make a ruling on something, then put it on the Constitution.

That is a naïve, overly bullshit excuse. Abortion was not really the issue, it is the rights of women that are the issue. The Constitution mentions nothing about women until the 19th Amendment. So according to your logic, women only may vote and nothing else.
This isnt about abortion, but about the SCOTUS putting limits to itself, and thats a good thing.

Your anti-federalist opinions really have no bearing on whether the decision was right or wrong.

You're not though. "Pro-choice in my state" is not pro-choice.

If you won't defend the reproductive rights of ALL AMERICAN WOMEN, then you are not pro-choice.

But I know from other threads that you make claims about yourself which are clearly untrue. Which a less polite person might call "false flag trolling".
You make a lot of dumb comments, and this is one of the dumbest ever. Congrats on proving that you know nothing about US law and government.

Perhaps you ought to try commenting on a subject you do know about, but what that is, I have no idea- ice fishing in Norway perhaps?
Would you say that any constitutional rights not mentioned in the constitution (unenumerated rights) should no longer be protected?
People need to stop thinking of SCOTUS as a monolithic decider on every aspect of our lives. They have purposely done this ruling to limit their own power, and to prove that they had no jurisdiction over things like abortion because its not in the Constitution. I think thats a good thing.
It isn't about powers delegated to the Federal Government, though. It's about the powers that aren't delegated to the Feds and not prohibited to the States - the reserved powers of the 10th Amendment. How those reserved powers are delegated to the States and to the people is a controversy arising from the Constitution, is it not?
Look, if you want the SCOTUS to have jurisdiction on something, then let's have a Constitutional convention and make changes that way. Congress has been dragging their feet on stuff like this when this is what they should be doing instead of passing moronic tax and spend laws. Congress could have also codified abortion, but they didnt do that either.

The constitution was the deed to the stolen land and the document that outlined the federal government. They tacked on some bull:poop: like the bill of rights to make the sale. The constitution was and is a con job. Does that mean that I don't believe in rights? Absolutely not. I believe in many more rights and ethics than the con job constitution mentions.

What's wrong with outlawing abortion in many states?! Seriously? No, not seriously. You're not a serious commenter.
More moronic statements coming from you, but thats not a surprise is it.

If you think American land is stolen and all that, go move to Cuba or Venezuela and you can live happily ever after with like-minded people.


The court is merely "easing" us into their preconceived radical religious belief that abortion is murder and women are murderers. They don't really care what is in the Constitution, they answer to a higher power and plan to be our high priests in charge of the reformation of America in their image. They are the Council of Trent all over again. God help us all.

Thats a very cynical way of looking at things and I disagree. I see hope in this, because SCOTUS has purposely set their own limits, thereby swinging the pendulum back to local communities, which is what the Founding Fathers intended in the first place.
 
I mean, abortion isnt mentioned in the Constitution, so technically it was beyond their scope of responsibilities, right?

What's wrong with giving the decision on it over to the states? This weakens the grip of federal power over the whole country, which is a good thing.

Im pro-choice, btw. Just in case anyone wants to know.
It doesn't technically say in the constitution that the government can't put all men in steel, government owned chastity cages when they turn 18, so why don't we just leave it to the states?

Sound like a dumbass argument? Yeah, I thought so too when you made it. The government doesn't have a right over our bodies just because that specific thing wasn't mentioned in the constitution.
 
It's not about abortion, per se.... it's about deciding who has the power to decide this issue under the terms of the 10th Amendment? The States or the people? As a matter arising out of the Constitution, the Supreme Court has jurisdiction on this matter, under Article III §2 cl. 1 - "The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution..."

Only in matters that are called out in A1S8.
 
I think the SC putting abortion on the agenda, particularly with the 5-4 overturn of RvW (which is frankly unnecessary, given how much the other decision gave to red states) has certainly improved Democrat chances this November.

As always, it's hard to predict the Senate without going state-by-state, but in the House Republicans will lose a lot of seats in purple and blue states. It will be a lot closer than it would have been.

Inflation and petrol prices will still be the main concern though. If those ease up (and I expect petrol prices at least, will) then abortion moves up the agenda and could carry the election for Democrats.

Nostradamus has spoken.

I'll bookmark this one to have some fun post November.
 
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