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I am seeking examples...

And I'll bet you think the same about Cuba, right???

Kindof yeah. It's not some magic virtue of 'freedum' or democracy that makes states economies thrive. There are other factors at play.
 
Something to ponder

How much of Cuba's current problems are due to the embargo from the US

I'm not sure about that. Somehow, I don't think nationalizing all the American-owned businesses and property there worked out exactly how they thought it would.
 
Kindof yeah. It's not some magic virtue of 'freedum' or democracy that makes states economies thrive. There are other factors at play.

But you have no idea what these factors are, right??
 
Kindof yeah. It's not some magic virtue of 'freedum' or democracy that makes states economies thrive. There are other factors at play.

Without freedum and democracy you can't have the stability that comes with freedom and democracy, which is kind of vital for economic progress. Strikes (e.g., an iranian election) cost a lot of money. You wouldn't believe how unproductive people can become in a totalitarian society. Parts of the population tend to be less motivated, wonder why that is...
 
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Without freedum and democracy you can't have the stability that comes with freedom and democracy, which is kind of vital for economic progress. Strikes (e.g., an iranian election) cost a lot of money. You wouldn't believe how unproductive people can become in a totalitarian society. Parts of the population tend to be less motivated, wonder why that is...

Then you might have a go at explaining Chinese super-productivity and double-digit growth for God knows how long. Surely, one of the most autocratic regimes on Earth, and possibly, currently THE most productive.
 
Then you might have a go at explaining Chinese super-productivity and double-digit growth for God knows how long. Surely, one of the most autocratic regimes on Earth, and possibly, currently THE most productive.

define productivity first.. not an easy thing to do!
 
Then you might have a go at explaining Chinese super-productivity and double-digit growth for God knows how long. Surely, one of the most autocratic regimes on Earth, and possibly, currently THE most productive.

Not if you compare the output of the avg chinese with the avg european, or japanese for that matter. Secondly, China's not stable, and certainly not as stable as the avg democracy.
 
I was under the impression that the term is "human rights". Human. But my fault -- apparently, I was under the wrong impression that all people regardless of nationality have inalienable rights and that America's claims to fight for the good are more than just empty rhetoric.

Good luck winning hearts and minds, and setting a good example others look up to and are willing to emulate.
Freedom isn't free, someone has to pay for it. If some countries are not willing to have a revolution when it is clear that one is needed, that is their problem. I object to fighting for the freedom of countries where the citizens apparently don't want it enough to fight for it themselves...
 
define productivity first.. not an easy thing to do!
It is that thing that some supervisors and managers only think they have accomplished, while they sit in their offices with their feet up, waiting for reports from their subordinates.
Once lower level management gets an office with a door, they tend to become useless.
 
Not if you compare the output of the avg chinese with the avg european, or japanese for that matter. Secondly, China's not stable, and certainly not as stable as the avg democracy.

Define 'your' version of stability?

Paul
 
Define 'your' version of stability?

Paul

It doesn't have high levels of unemployment, demonstrations, protests, ethnic tensions and violence, clashes between ethnic Uighur and ethnic Han groups, clashes between the police and Tibetan protestors (resulting in over 100 deaths).

The potential for future unrest remains.
 
Ah, to live in a comfortable cage. To give away your freedom for stability. Oh how I love socialism!
 
Ah, to live in a comfortable cage. To give away your freedom for stability. Oh how I love socialism!

You know who did love Socialism? Albert Einstein. He wrote an interesting piece on it.

Innumerable voices have been asserting for some time now that human society is passing through a crisis, that its stability has been gravely shattered. It is characteristic of such a situation that individuals feel indifferent or even hostile toward the group, small or large, to which they belong. In order to illustrate my meaning, let me record here a personal experience. I recently discussed with an intelligent and well-disposed man the threat of another war, which in my opinion would seriously endanger the existence of mankind, and I remarked that only a supra-national organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: "Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?"

I am sure that as little as a century ago no one would have so lightly made a statement of this kind. It is the statement of a man who has striven in vain to attain an equilibrium within himself and has more or less lost hope of succeeding. It is the expression of a painful solitude and isolation from which so many people are suffering in these days. What is the cause? Is there a way out?

It is easy to raise such questions, but difficult to answer them with any degree of assurance. I must try, however, as best I can, although I am very conscious of the fact that our feelings and strivings are often contradictory and obscure and that they cannot be expressed in easy and simple formulas.

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting, strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished—just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable and susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make new combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human being which are not dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life through his own conduct, and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.

Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable, including the natural urges which are characteristic of the human species. In addition, during his lifetime, he acquires a cultural constitution which he adopts from society through communication and through many other types of influences. It is this cultural constitution which, with the passage of time, is subject to change and which determines to a very large extent the relationship between the individual and society. Modern anthropology has taught us, through comparative investigation of so-called primitive cultures, that the social behavior of human beings may differ greatly, depending upon prevailing cultural patterns and the types of organization which predominate in society. It is on this that those who are striving to improve the lot of man may ground their hopes: human beings are not condemned, because of their biological constitution, to annihilate each other or to be at the mercy of a cruel, self-inflicted fate.

If we ask ourselves how the structure of society and the cultural attitude of man should be changed in order to make human life as satisfying as possible, we should constantly be conscious of the fact that there are certain conditions which we are unable to modify. As mentioned before, the biological nature of man is, for all practical purposes, not subject to change. Furthermore, technological and demographic developments of the last few centuries have created conditions which are here to stay. In relatively densely settled populations with the goods which are indispensable to their continued existence, an extreme division of labor and a highly-centralized productive apparatus are absolutely necessary. The time—which, looking back, seems so idyllic—is gone forever when individuals or relatively small groups could be completely self-sufficient. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that mankind constitutes even now a planetary community of production and consumption.

I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production—that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods—may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call “workers” all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production—although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. Insofar as the labor contract is “free,” what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists' requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized by two main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the “free labor contract” for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present day economy does not differ much from “pure” capitalism.

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an “army of unemployed” almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society....
 
Albert Einstein believed in communism? Why, of course I should agree with him because he's just so right.
 
Then you might have a go at explaining Chinese super-productivity and double-digit growth for God knows how long. Surely, one of the most autocratic regimes on Earth, and possibly, currently THE most productive.

The Chinese have obviously veered away from their original Communist ideals that were so infamous (murdering 30 million people as one quick example) even while so many so many Leftists were admiring Mao's Little Red Book. Communist leadership is slowly decaying but they will hold on as long as possible, as people with power always do.

Brain dead Leftists would admire anything Communist and defend it by pointing out the medical system in Cuba they thought was so superior and now they'll admire the "productivity" in China. They will say anything to present Communism in a positive light, despite knowing of its anti human murderous past. This is a serious sickness of the human mind, and it is very widespread.
 
You know who did love Socialism? Albert Einstein. He wrote an interesting piece on it.

That's hardly original thinking at all and of course his conclusions are as simplistic and naive as the thinking that got him there. It just demonstrates once again that being good, or even a genius, in one area, does not make us an expert in all, or even many areas.
 
The Chinese have obviously veered away from their original Communist ideals that were so infamous (murdering 30 million people as one quick example) even while so many so many Leftists were admiring Mao's Little Red Book. Communist leadership is slowly decaying but they will hold on as long as possible, as people with power always do.

Brain dead Leftists would admire anything Communist and defend it by pointing out the medical system in Cuba they thought was so superior and now they'll admire the "productivity" in China. They will say anything to present Communism in a positive light, despite knowing of its anti human murderous past. This is a serious sickness of the human mind, and it is very widespread.
I don't think the right has a claim on human rights especially when they defend the use of torture, put people in prison without trial and millions more for minor offenses, scapegoat minorities, undermine free speech at townhalls, engage in nationalism by calling themselves patriots, subvert elections thru intimidation and fraud, use extremist propaganda to deligitimize opposing views and are working to put all the wealth and power into the hands of few. But of course, it's not called communism when the rightwing does it, eh? No, instead I think it's more like fascism. Viva Il Duce.
 
...of nations negatively affected by socialism. I need to build a platform that indicates as proof to the naive as to why socialism is a failed political concept.

Russia, Cuba, Poland, Lithuania, Yugoslavia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, China, North Korea, Cambodia.... take your pick.
 
I don't think the right has a claim on human rights especially when they defend the use of torture, put people in prison without trial and millions more for minor offenses, scapegoat minorities, undermine free speech at townhalls, engage in nationalism by calling themselves patriots, subvert elections thru intimidation and fraud, use extremist propaganda to deligitimize opposing views and are working to put all the wealth and power into the hands of few. But of course, it's not called communism when the rightwing does it, eh? No, instead I think it's more like fascism. Viva Il Duce.


The difference, you ask? People on this very board DEFENDING Communism whilst still crowing on about fascists at every election.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...nst-oppression-anybody-else-see-oxymoron.html

Extremism only cuts one way, evidently.
 
The difference, you ask? People on this very board DEFENDING Communism whilst still crowing on about fascists at every election.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...nst-oppression-anybody-else-see-oxymoron.html

Extremism only cuts one way, evidently.
It looks like you are trying to paint the Liberals in the US as some sort of Stalin communists just because they want affordable health care. So how does health care equate to a totalitarian dictatorship responsible for killing millions of people? I dunno, but it's rather naive and extreme of you to think it does.
 
The question was on Socialism, though Liberals do act more left wing all the time in the way they order people about.



.....affordable health care.

As with the cry of racist, that's pretty much a stock phrase to use to quieten people down. 'We care, we love healthcare'.


That doesn't guarantee political sanity from those we all know and love:

Illegal aliens will be covered under Obama's healthcare bill - Norfolk Crime | Examiner.com



'Peace' protester:

"If a dictator provides clean water for their people... if they provide free health care, I like that dictator. If he provides university and education for everyone, I like that dictator."

ProtestWarrior.com - Crashing the Protests
 
Oh yeah, I forgot, Americans hate civil liberties these days. Human rights and civil liberties are just socialist concepts that keep the true American Übermensch from liberating the world.

It's really sad what America has become. Pathetic. Words don't even begin to cover the contempt I have for this criminal arrogance and self-righteousness.

I would qualify your statement as follows: It's sad to see what America has become under Barack Obama who wages illegal Droid wars against innocent Pakistani villagers.

Bush is gone. Focus on Obama because he's the guy with his finger on the trigger at this very moment.

Btw, why does Hamburg seen to be a focal point of terrorist attacks against America? I'm thinking Mohammed Atta.
 
It doesn't have high levels of unemployment, demonstrations, protests, ethnic tensions and violence, clashes between ethnic Uighur and ethnic Han groups, clashes between the police and Tibetan protestors (resulting in over 100 deaths).

The potential for future unrest remains.

Interesting. It seems China has a lower unemployment rate than the USA

China 4.1%

USA 9.6%

List of countries by unemployment rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some of your remaining indicators [demonstrations, protests, ethnic tensions and violence] are most definitely analogous with that of the US.
I would be more inclined to look at state control measures etc

Paul
 
The Chinese have obviously veered away from their original Communist ideals that were so infamous (murdering 30 million people as one quick example) even while so many so many Leftists were admiring Mao's Little Red Book. Communist leadership is slowly decaying but they will hold on as long as possible, as people with power always do.

Brain dead Leftists would admire anything Communist and defend it by pointing out the medical system in Cuba they thought was so superior and now they'll admire the "productivity" in China. They will say anything to present Communism in a positive light, despite knowing of its anti human murderous past. This is a serious sickness of the human mind, and it is very widespread.

Rather, i think its the insistence from the right that 'any' Communist regime can in anyway be economically productive, more to the point in China's case, super productive. That's not suggesting China is some kind of ideal Communist state, far from it.

Paul
 
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