human euthanasia--it is happening

[Donkey1499]

It's not possible. That's the problem. It's an impossible illogical statement. You cannot be both the Father and the Son at the same time. Christianity's trinity is inherently irratational. You have to believe in on faith, not reason, which is why it's stupid.

Is it "stupid" because you don't follow a religion? Is it "stupid" because your mind can't comprehend the POSSIBILITY that there MIGHT be an intelligent being out there that MIGHT have created us? I only say "MIGHT" and "POSSIBILITY" because I don't want to offend any athiests.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Is it "stupid" because you don't follow a religion? Is it "stupid" because your mind can't comprehend the POSSIBILITY that there MIGHT be an intelligent being out there that MIGHT have created us? I only say "MIGHT" and "POSSIBILITY" because I don't want to offend any athiests.

No. It's stupid because it's illogical and is contrary to reason, not because I don't agree with it. I like to employ Occam's Razor. It's effective in giving ghosts, goblins, and other silly metaphysical creatures the shaving they need.

 

[Donkey1499]

No. It's stupid because it's illogical and is contrary to reason, not because I don't agree with it. I like to employ Occam's Razor. It's effective in giving ghosts, goblins, and other silly metaphysical creatures the shaving they need.

This is what I got on Occam's Razor from Wikipedia.Com.

Occam's Razor (also spelled Ockham's Razor), is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. It forms the basis of methodological reductionism, also called the principle of parsimony or law of economy.

In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed. Put into everyday language, it says

Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler.
For example, a charred tree could be caused by a lightning strike or by someone who used a machine to burn the upper branches of a tree and then replanted the grass leading up to the tree to hide the machine's tracks. According to Occam's Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions.

*** For some, like me, it is easier to say that an intelligent being created us; instead of single celled organisms. Maybe because I'm just to lazy to learn all those big words. :2razz: But I know, in my mind, that God exists. And no one's gonna change that.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Occam's Razor does not say to pick the simplest answer. It says not to multiply entities unnecessarily. If you have to choose among competing theories with equal quantities of evidence, you pick the simplest theory of the equally powerful competing theories. With Occam's Razor, you shave away any unnecessary entitiets that are unfalsifable and/or redundant.

God is neither falsifiable nor is God a theory at all, nor does it have any explanatory mechanism, therefore, it's shaven away via the Razor.

*** For some, like me, it is easier to say that an intelligent being created us; instead of single celled organisms. Maybe because I'm just to lazy to learn all those big words. But I know, in my mind, that God exists. And no one's gonna change that.

For someone like you it is; for educated scientists and logicians, it is not. This is why Joe H. Random AMerican should not make decisions. He should leave it up to his betters. I know, in my mind, that God doesn't exist. Feelings don't prove anything.

Occam's Razor is typically used to shave away metaphysical beings.

 

[dthmstr254]

You still don't get what I'm trying to say... Jesus claims to be the SON OF GOD; then later on he claims to BE GOD! How is that possible? Either he is one or the other. And God wouldn't need to manifest himself to one form, He appeared to Moses as a Burning Bush for crying out loud!!! If I was to follow your reasoning then the Anti-Christ is really Satan, and that can't be possible either. It's like saying that you and a woman produced a son, then you tell everyone that that boy isn't really a boy of his own person, but really just a clone of you even tho he carries his mother's traits (ex. Hair, eyes, or nose).

I'm trying to explain my case here, but you'll probably still just say that I deny that God is all powerful. Which is just as bad as calling me a heretic. But go ahead, see if I care.

because God was both!!! you have once again put a limit on the all-powerful God. you really need to rethink your doctrine. you cannot explain God in human terms. God has NO LIMITS to His abilities, please explain it from the other side of the issue, can God be two things if He wants to. the OT displays that quite clearly in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. a few portraits of Jesus include:
Adam was created sinless and brought sin into the world. Jesus was born sinless and defeated the father of sin (Satan) at the cross.
the ram that Abraham offered after God stayed his hand at the altar where he was about to sacrifice his own son.
the rock that Moses strikes, symbolizing how the Messiah would be struck by his own people.
in Joshua you will notice a little similarity between the meaning of Joshua's name and the meaning of Jesus's name. they both mean "the Lord saves"
and in Ruth, Jesus is portrayed as our Kinsman-Redeemer.
nearly the entire book of Isaiah is dedicated to Messianic prophecies, including the fact that the Messiah would have the name "the mighty God" and that he would be despised by the Jews, and that He came to save the earth, not just the Jews.
if you want to use the OT to argue against Jesus being God, I can show how He earned that title, and still has that title today. that is why it God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Donkey1499]

because God was both!!! you have once again put a limit on the all-powerful God. you really need to rethink your doctrine. you cannot explain God in human terms. God has NO LIMITS to His abilities, please explain it from the other side of the issue, can God be two things if He wants to. the OT displays that quite clearly in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. a few portraits of Jesus include:
Adam was created sinless and brought sin into the world. Jesus was born sinless and defeated the father of sin (Satan) at the cross.
the ram that Abraham offered after God stayed his hand at the altar where he was about to sacrifice his own son.
the rock that Moses strikes, symbolizing how the Messiah would be struck by his own people.
in Joshua you will notice a little similarity between the meaning of Joshua's name and the meaning of Jesus's name. they both mean "the Lord saves"
and in Ruth, Jesus is portrayed as our Kinsman-Redeemer.
nearly the entire book of Isaiah is dedicated to Messianic prophecies, including the fact that the Messiah would have the name "the mighty God" and that he would be despised by the Jews, and that He came to save the earth, not just the Jews.
if you want to use the OT to argue against Jesus being God, I can show how He earned that title, and still has that title today. that is why it God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.

Another example to backup my argument is the "Apostles Creed". It says that, "Jesus SITS on the RIGHT HAND of GOD the Father Almighty". Once again proving my point that Jesus and God are two seperate beings.

But I think I have an explanation on why Jesus at that one time said he IS God. I THINK that, just like Satan, God can POSSESS a person's body and use them as a tool for his will. So really, God was just using Jesus at that moment to get in a word.

 

[galenrox]

We have all seen the news, and one of the most televised event of the year is the Terri Schiavo case. Did you know that the state of Florida euthanizes over 8000 people a year?
I held a personal interview with Terri's parents and listened to a message by their lawyer Dr. David Gibbs III. I am going to give a basic set of topics that surround this event, including murder and hate, and love, determination, and trials.
Euthanasia is not a way to make a person comfortable, or end their pain. Yes, their pain does end, but they don't have a chance to live. these people have put their lives in the hands of their loved ones and those loved ones have betrayed them. Mr Schiavo actually promised that he would do everything in his power to help Terri recover.
You say "but Terri was disabled."
This is true, but she was still able to do many things that we are able to do. Accounts from the Schindlers and Dr Gibbs tell of an energetic young woman who was excited to meet visitors, especially her mother. She would jump out of the La-Z-Boy chair in her hospital room, run up to her mother, hug her, and say "Ama". she was rehabilitating well with her speech, and was able to communicate pretty clearly what it was that she wanted. This disabled woman would cry when her mother left the room. This is not terminal illness that we are dealing with; just the results of a terrible occurence that left her brain damaged.
You say "but she was on a one-way road to death"
This is a flagrant lie. Terri didn't require a respirator, lung machine, or heart regulator. the only thing that she needed was to be fed, which everybody requires. If a prison decided to stop feeding the prisoners, the Federal Government would be all over them about breaking regulations and removing the prisoners constitutional rights. If we decided not to feed prisoners of war the Geneva Convention would be all over us for violating the POW's rights. where has America come to when a POW and convicted murderer have more rights than a young, disabled citizen of the United States? Is Terri Schiavo going to be just a stepping stone to a day where if a person gets too old we can exterminate him? or will we as Americans say "the buck stops here!"? what is your choice?
note: this was a hard topic to categorize, so i just stuck it here.

So thus you completely ignore the autopsy that says yes indeed, she was brain dead. You're gonna listen to a family and an obviously biased doctor, and take their opinion over unbiased doctors who performed the autopsy?

Can I have your dealer's phone number?

 

[UtahBill]

Religious fervor is the original addictive device used to turn the minds of men to mush, making them easily manipulated for the dealer's personal gain.
There are books to be written, and sold to the gullible.:roll:

I would pay money to see a video of her getting out of the chair and running to her mother. Such a video cannot exist, or otherwise the media would be running it still.

 

[Donkey1499]

The first autopsy report on Shiavo was released by the Pinellas County Coroners Office. The coroner said that her pretty much was mush. The Schindlers didn't want to hear that, so they wanted another coroner to do an autopsy, but Mr. Shiavo had her buried.

Y'all probably already knew this, but I was bored and felt like typing something.

 

[dthmstr254]

So thus you completely ignore the autopsy that says yes indeed, she was brain dead. You're gonna listen to a family and an obviously biased doctor, and take their opinion over unbiased doctors who performed the autopsy?

Can I have your dealer's phone number?

unbiased doctors disagreed with it. this doctor was right if he was referring to her directly before death, not at any time before the beginning of her starvation can this be considered a reliable account. here is why:
the gland that creates the barrier between the brain and the blood was damaged at the time of the accident in such a way that, if not recieving a full days worth of nutrition, it would shut down. after it shuts down the barrier remains for only a limited amount of time, after which it breaks down, allowing the digestive enzymes in the blood to get into the brain tissue and start digesting it. this is why her brain was jello.

 

[dthmstr254]

Another example to backup my argument is the "Apostles Creed". It says that, "Jesus SITS on the RIGHT HAND of GOD the Father Almighty". Once again proving my point that Jesus and God are two seperate beings.

But I think I have an explanation on why Jesus at that one time said he IS God. I THINK that, just like Satan, God can POSSESS a person's body and use them as a tool for his will. So really, God was just using Jesus at that moment to get in a word.

i see that you have disagreed with the fact that God can be in two places at once, and that God can do whatever He wants so the argument is pointless, you, my friend, are a finitist.

 

[Donkey1499]

i see that you have disagreed with the fact that God can be in two places at once, and that God can do whatever He wants so the argument is pointless, you, my friend, are a finitist.

Finitist? Please describe that.

 

[UtahBill]

unbiased doctors disagreed with it. this doctor was right if he was referring to her directly before death, not at any time before the beginning of her starvation can this be considered a reliable account. here is why:
the gland that creates the barrier between the brain and the blood was damaged at the time of the accident in such a way that, if not recieving a full days worth of nutrition, it would shut down. after it shuts down the barrier remains for only a limited amount of time, after which it breaks down, allowing the digestive enzymes in the blood to get into the brain tissue and start digesting it. this is why her brain was jello.

OK, Doctor Deathmaster, what is the name of that gland? Or is this just something else you make up as you go?
And digestive enzymes in the blood? I thought those were in the digestive tract. Got some info on that as well? I am beginning to think that you are an alien being.

 

[dthmstr254]

OK, Doctor Deathmaster, what is the name of that gland? Or is this just something else you make up as you go?
And digestive enzymes in the blood? I thought those were in the digestive tract. Got some info on that as well? I am beginning to think that you are an alien being.

every gland in the body would shut down, other than the heart and lymph nodes, in a systematic progression. there is a liquid barrier between the brain and the blood, meaning there is a gland to secrete the liquid.
also, since all glands shut down, you have to assume that "all" includes the mucus glands, and according to my biology books, without mucus being constantly secreted into the stomach lining, the gastric juices and digestive enzymes could start eating the stomach lining in 30 minutes. the book i cite is Exploring God's Creation Through Biology. after the digestive enzymes eat away the stomach, they can go anywhere they want in the body, and since the blood vessels are included in "everywhere" than the digestive enzymes can go there too.

 

[dthmstr254]

Finitist? Please describe that.

a finitist is someone who believes that God is not all-powerful. this idea was first perpetuated by Rabbi Kushner.

here is some information on what he first popularized:

Does the existence of evil prove God is finite?

One author who popularized a form of finite godism was Rabbi Kushner, who wrote WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE. In wrestling with the premature death of his son, Kushner concluded that God wants the righteous to live happy lives, but sometimes He cannot bring that about. There are some things God simply cannot control. God is good, but He is not powerful enough to bring about all the good things He desires. In short, God is finite.

Finitism fails to consider that God's timing is not human timing. As noted previously the fact that God has not defeated evil TODAY does not mean He is not eliminating it in the future. As we consult Revelation 21--22 it is quite clear that God WILL deal with evil in the future (see also 2 Pet. 3:7-12).

Finitism clearly goes against the biblical testimony of God. Scripture portrays God as being OMNIPOTENT -- meaning that He is all-powerful. He has the power to do all that He desires and wills. Some 56 times Scripture declares that God is ALMIGHTY (e.g., Rev. 19:6). God is abundant in strength (Ps. 147:5) and has incomparably great power (2 Chron. 20:6; Eph. 1:19-21). No one can hold back God's hand (Dan. 4:35). No one can reverse God (Isa. 43:13) and no one can thwart Him (Isa. 14:27). Nothing is impossible with God (Matt. 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 1:37), and nothing is too difficult for Him (Gen. 18:14; Jer. 32:17,27). The Almighty reigns (Rev. 19:6).

i describe you as a finitist because you do not believe that God can BE in three forms as the Trinity aspect so obviously believes.
ever heard of this belief?
here is the reason i believe that God is triune. man is also triune, consisting of body, spirit and soul. God the Son is the body of God; God the Father is the soul of God; while God the Holy Spirit, obviously, is the Spirit of God. combining the two beliefs gives a very consistent argument, because God said, "let US make man in OUR image" indicating that God is either a multi-part God, or there are other gods around. combine the creation of man with John 1:1 and you disclude the latter, because Jesus is the Word. it is later reinforced when Jesus says "before Abraham was, I Am." also translatable as "before Abraham was YHWH"

 

[Donkey1499]

a finitist is someone who believes that God is not all-powerful. this idea was first perpetuated by Rabbi Kushner.

here is some information on what he first popularized:

Does the existence of evil prove God is finite?


i describe you as a finitist because you do not believe that God can BE in three forms as the Trinity aspect so obviously believes.
ever heard of this belief?
here is the reason i believe that God is triune. man is also triune, consisting of body, spirit and soul. God the Son is the body of God; God the Father is the soul of God; while God the Holy Spirit, obviously, is the Spirit of God. combining the two beliefs gives a very consistent argument, because God said, "let US make man in OUR image" indicating that God is either a multi-part God, or there are other gods around. combine the creation of man with John 1:1 and you disclude the latter, because Jesus is the Word. it is later reinforced when Jesus says "before Abraham was, I Am." also translatable as "before Abraham was YHWH"

Ok, but I'll just ask my Pastor this stuff. Maybe he can clear it all up for me. It's just all confusing. Because if Jesus is God and God is Jesus' then why was Jesus talking to God/Himself on the cross? I'm just a bit confused. I know that God is everywhere, but I just need some explaining first.

 

[UtahBill]

Ok, but I'll just ask my Pastor this stuff. Maybe he can clear it all up for me. It's just all confusing. Because if Jesus is God and God is Jesus' then why was Jesus talking to God/Himself on the cross? I'm just a bit confused. I know that God is everywhere, but I just need some explaining first.

Asking your pastor if something is right is like asking a used car salesman if he has the right car for you. The saleman is going to try to sell you what he has in stock, not find one at another dealership and send you there. It is better to go to all the dealerships on your own, and find what you want. So ask your pastor, but then go ask the same of other Christian religions, and even non-Christian religions, to get more options. Most of us just accept whatever our parents believed and never ask questions. That might be dangerous.
If pastors, preachers, etc. were given a minimal stipend by the government, like in some countries, instead of charging what the market will bear, most of them would go find other jobs. The ones that are left are either honestly religious, or too lazy to work a real job.
Ultimately, it isn't what we believe that matters, it is what we do. There will be many who claim to be Christians on judgement day, but when asked what they DID for their fellow man will not have much to say for themselves.

 

[Donkey1499]

Asking your pastor if something is right is like asking a used car salesman if he has the right car for you. The saleman is going to try to sell you what he has in stock, not find one at another dealership and send you there. It is better to go to all the dealerships on your own, and find what you want. So ask your pastor, but then go ask the same of other Christian religions, and even non-Christian religions, to get more options. Most of us just accept whatever our parents believed and never ask questions. That might be dangerous.
If pastors, preachers, etc. were given a minimal stipend by the government, like in some countries, instead of charging what the market will bear, most of them would go find other jobs. The ones that are left are either honestly religious, or too lazy to work a real job.
Ultimately, it isn't what we believe that matters, it is what we do. There will be many who claim to be Christians on judgement day, but when asked what they DID for their fellow man will not have much to say for themselves.

I actually trust my Pastor. He went to a Christian University for 3 years. So I think his word is trustworthy.

 

[UtahBill]

I actually trust my Pastor. He went to a Christian University for 3 years. So I think his word is trustworthy.

That just means that for 3 years he listened to only one used car salesman.
You will never find out if chevvies are better than fords if you only go to the ford dealership.
But suit yourself...

 

[dthmstr254]

Ok, but I'll just ask my Pastor this stuff. Maybe he can clear it all up for me. It's just all confusing. Because if Jesus is God and God is Jesus' then why was Jesus talking to God/Himself on the cross? I'm just a bit confused. I know that God is everywhere, but I just need some explaining first.

the first thing i have heard anyone say that had any sense.