human euthanasia--it is happening

[Kelzie]

but isnt it considered a hate crime to back, in any way shape or form, the death of a person based on the mental, racial, religious, and now sexual persuasions of that individual? this was the legalized hate homicide of a 41 yr old woman, not the execution of a criminal. Terri Shiavo was killed in a way that would be criminal if we did it to a dog or cat. take a convicted mass murderer or serial killer who is sentenced to death and say that we will not feed him/her, and that will be the manner of their executionand the constitution would stand up and say that we could not do that, this is cruel and unusual. so why should the death of Terry be any different from murder? if you were to have walked into her room and stabbed her to death, would that be the same as what they did to her? i already know what you will say, but go ahead and say it, that way i have the fun of hearing you say it.

Damn...now I have to think of what I'm supposed to be saying...I give up. What is it?

 

[dthmstr254]

The date on this was stated on CNN as well as the BBC. It was 96/97. You don't recover from massive atrophy of the brain tissue, so the doctor in the 21st century who examined her was full of ****.

then so were the many visitors she had. either the Schindlers were administering some kind of drug which caused hallucinations to every non-medical visitor, or the reports you have are false. the problem with this is, those drugs would have to cause the exact same hallucination that they wanted, because no one person responds to hallucinogens in the same way. i dont see that as being possible. i also want to know: is there a way a person with Down's Syndrome unable to recover as well. last i checked, with hard work a person with Down's will be able to live a normal life. the brain doesnt change, it is still designed the same way it was at the beginning. so what changes? evidently something more powerful than the brain took over the body and fought the mental handicap. this leads me to conclude that something independent of the brain is what causes a human to overcome mental illness. why couldnt that be fully functioning and working on overcoming the problems that the brain had?

 

[dthmstr254]

Damn...now I have to think of what I'm supposed to be saying...I give up. What is it?

dont back out of the debate so early into it, why you leaving me hanging? :rofl

 

[Kelzie]

dont back out of the debate so early into it, why you leaving me hanging? :rofl

Well, since you already know what I'm going to say, I don't really know why you need me.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Now, see, my one problem with utilitarianism is a situation that happened a couple years ago (I might be jacking this from some text book...nobody tell on me). A women was mugged or something, and went to the police station to report it. The cop that took her case made her strip and took a bunch of photos which he later passed around the precinct. Utilitarians would be okay with this, because the happiness caused far outweighs the unhappiness it caused the young women. But it's still wrong.

Here you do bring up a valid concern, but I would hope I could dispell such fears. The Original Utilitarianism proably would not have thought this would have even occured. It was the last thing on the mind of people trying to come up with something that could reform society. THere are some sadistic people who would try to cause misery to others only to benefit themselves. At first glance, it would seem like such a practice as above would be justified under Utility, but I disagree on several points.

Modern Utilitarianism is not the same as Classical Utilitarianism. Classical Utilitarianism focused only on pure happiness, and all happiness was equal. Modern Utilitarianism is largely preference Utilitarianism, and although it has the same general goal to "Do the Greatest Good for the Greatest Number" the means and considerations have changed.

1. It deals with maximizing the preferences of Persons, but also minimizing suffering. In essense, it is compatible with Human Rights.

2. Under Modern Utilitarianism, Person's have moral value, and this moral value is attached to rights, which ought to be respected. This is why, in my arguments, I don't dismiss rights as earlier utilitarians. you are a Person, and modern Utilitarianism respects the wishes and desires of persons. That's the heart of Preference Utilitarianism. As a person you have access to human rights, and even under a utilitarian construct, rights are important, because they are universally useful in society. A society with rights-constructs is better and more happy, overall, than a society without them, therefore, it is useful to keep this tradition in place unless there is some powerful, extrinsic reason to violate a right. By forcing the woman to strip and then taking pictures of her, they are, by getting happy, doing so by objectively violating your rights unnecessarily. They aren't minimizing suffering or saving lives by doing it. Modern Utilitarianism respects the human rights of moral persons in its quest to maximize happiness and minimize suffering. As a rationally atuonomous person, you ought not be exploited against you will merely for the temporary, subjective gain of sadists,

3. Sadism and the Objective vs Subjective. Modern Utilitarianism also looks into the calculous further than other, older varieties. I also take into consideration whether happiness gained is malicious, sadistic, and whether or not there are objective benefits/damages. Most modern Utilitarian calculuses have a clause which discourages malicious or sadistic pleasures, especially if doing so would violate the rights of those with moral personhood. When looking at a calculation, you want to look and see whether the happiness gained is gained at the objective expense of another "person." Happiness is subjective. It is valuable, but not at the expense of the Objecive. Objective gains/damages always outweigh the purely subjective.


For example, Five of my buddies might get really happy if we strap a dog to a chair and torture it mentally, but the objective pain/suffering and damage done to the dog would outweigh the high we might experience, because the damage done is objective, while the happiness gained is not only malicious, but temporary and subjecive. I don't factor in malicious acts into a legitimate calculous, becaus malicious happiness is not good happiness. It serves no greater social purpouse. It never objectively helps society. The dog will most likely be emotional scarred or traumatized. The mental damage and or physical damage done to the woman exploited would not be far removed from that of the dog, except that the woman's suffering capacity is far greater, since she is a "person." I don't think the suffering and human rights violations would be outweighed by the temporary, sadistic pleasure gained by the cops. No quanity of pure happiness (subjective), can be validated via the objective mental, phsyical anguish and pain of another sapient being. It's malcious, unncessary, and totally against the point of spreading happiness--to make a better world.



4. If we look at it from a rule-perspective, what the cops did was wrong, overall, regardless of their temporary subjective gain because of the objective damage it does/can easily do to society. Allowing people in high positions or people in authority to exploit those they are ment to serve and protect is not something I would consider wise or utilitarian. The police are ment to help, and if you were to allow police to freely exploit, punish, injure, or violate a citizen, then you are setting an extremely dangerous precedent. Society would not be very good if the police were allowed to morally do the above. No one would want to live in such a place, so the issue has effects beyond the indivdiual act itself. For example, no one would want to live in a society in which doctors randomly took people from the waiting room, killed them, and then harvested their organs to give to people. Even though they're doing good, they are violating the autonomy and rights of morally important Persons, and at the same time, they are establishing a socially dangerous precedent.


Modern Utilitarianism, is, in a nutshell, the desire to maximize the preferences of all relevant individuals while respecting their moral personhood and trying to minimize suffering. Maximize preferences/Minimize Suffering.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

then so were the many visitors she had. either the Schindlers were administering some kind of drug which caused hallucinations to every non-medical visitor, or the reports you have are false. the problem with this is, those drugs would have to cause the exact same hallucination that they wanted, because no one person responds to hallucinogens in the same way. i dont see that as being possible. i also want to know: is there a way a person with Down's Syndrome unable to recover as well. last i checked, with hard work a person with Down's will be able to live a normal life. the brain doesnt change, it is still designed the same way it was at the beginning. so what changes? evidently something more powerful than the brain took over the body and fought the mental handicap. this leads me to conclude that something independent of the brain is what causes a human to overcome mental illness. why couldnt that be fully functioning and working on overcoming the problems that the brain had?

OK - Down's Syndrome:

In the dark (and fairly recent) past, people with this condition were pretty much written-off at birth. But in these more enlightened times these people are often provided with an education program that helps them to achieve their full potential. There are also different degrees of disability with Down's, so some individuals will lead near normal lives while others will not do so well. It is not about changing the brain, it is about making the most of what is there.

Now, severe brain damage is a different matter. Brain tissue does not regenerate, and if the damage is bad enough the brain will not be able to compensate. That was the case with poor Terri.

I don't know what witnesses really saw, but people in such sad situations often show some signs (eye-tracking, making apparently meaningful noises etc.) that could be interpreted as good signs by people who want to see good signs. However, they are probably just reflex actions and nothing more. I have nursed such people, so I have some idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[UtahBill]

Anyone else find this extremely creepy?

And no you couldn't sparky. You can't sue an individual for descrimination. An individual can descriminate all they want. I can sit here and say blacks suck, asians suck, jews suck, hispanics suck....wow. Look at all that descriminating going on. Not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

Creepy, yes, and evidence that the person writing it is very young, very uneducated, and being taught by someone in a way that only reinforces ignorance. Sounds like a cult in progress.

 

[dthmstr254]

OK - Down's Syndrome:

In the dark (and fairly recent) past, people with this condition were pretty much written-off at birth. But in these more enlightened times these people are often provided with an education program that helps them to achieve their full potential. There are also different degrees of disability with Down's, so some individuals will lead near normal lives while others will not do so well. It is not about changing the brain, it is about making the most of what is there.

Now, severe brain damage is a different matter. Brain tissue does not regenerate, and if the damage is bad enough the brain will not be able to compensate. That was the case with poor Terri.

I don't know what witnesses really saw, but people in such sad situations often show some signs (eye-tracking, making apparently meaningful noises etc.) that could be interpreted as good signs by people who want to see good signs. However, they are probably just reflex actions and nothing more. I have nursed such people, so I have some idea of what I'm talking about.

we saw videos of her following the balloon, light, responding to certain people (like squealing when her mom entered the room and crying when she left). according to her parents, take all that and multiply it by ten, and that is the amount of activity they experienced each day before they took her off of food and water. got a question: what would happen to you if we cut off all your sources of food and water like they did to Terri?

 

[dthmstr254]

Creepy, yes, and evidence that the person writing it is very young, very uneducated, and being taught by someone in a way that only reinforces ignorance. Sounds like a cult in progress.

I am majoring in pre-law at TTU. made a 27 on my act out of 31 total points. qualified for the Bright Futures scholarship and made a 97 on my ASVAB, beating even my recruiter's score from a week back. if i had decided to do ROTC, after boot camp i could qualify for E-3 level right off the bat, thanks to my high ASVAB and transcripts. i am a Baptist. been homeschooled from 6th grade using textbooks from both secular and Christian groups. and am about to challenge the College Algebra course here at my college. once if figure out how to use this new graphing calculator. the manual is of no assistance to me on this. please quit bashing and get on with the debate.

 

[Kelzie]

I am majoring in pre-law at TTU. made a 27 on my act out of 31 total points. qualified for the Bright Futures scholarship and made a 97 on my ASVAB, beating even my recruiter's score from a week back. if i had decided to do ROTC, after boot camp i could qualify for E-3 level right off the bat, thanks to my high ASVAB and transcripts. i am a Baptist. been homeschooled from 6th grade using textbooks from both secular and Christian groups. and am about to challenge the College Algebra course here at my college. once if figure out how to use this new graphing calculator. the manual is of no assistance to me on this. please quit bashing and get on with the debate.

God I hate number droppers. :roll: I find it odd that you are a pre-law major, yet you think you can sue individuals for descrimination.

 

[dthmstr254]

is anyone else going to put up a point on this issue, or are we just going to sit here and do nothing.

 

[UtahBill]

I am majoring in pre-law at TTU. made a 27 on my act out of 31 total points. qualified for the Bright Futures scholarship and made a 97 on my ASVAB, beating even my recruiter's score from a week back. if i had decided to do ROTC, after boot camp i could qualify for E-3 level right off the bat, thanks to my high ASVAB and transcripts. i am a Baptist. been homeschooled from 6th grade using textbooks from both secular and Christian groups. and am about to challenge the College Algebra course here at my college. once if figure out how to use this new graphing calculator. the manual is of no assistance to me on this. please quit bashing and get on with the debate.

There is a difference between being smart and being educated. Smart means being able to learn better than some of us, education is what you learn.
Your education is just starting. By the time you get old, like me, you will have learned a LOT. I was a baptist. I won't say all baptists are bigots, but all the bigots I have met over the years have been baptists.
Your being home schooled means you have probably been over indoctrinated in baptist theology, and under educated in rational thought and tolerance.
Jesus was tolerant to many human frailities, look it up.

 

[dthmstr254]

There is a difference between being smart and being educated. Smart means being able to learn better than some of us, education is what you learn.
Your education is just starting. By the time you get old, like me, you will have learned a LOT. I was a baptist. I won't say all baptists are bigots, but all the bigots I have met over the years have been baptists.
Your being home schooled means you have probably been over indoctrinated in baptist theology, and under educated in rational thought and tolerance.
Jesus was tolerant to many human frailities, look it up.

i have seen little "tolerance" from the atheistic community. in fact, the Bible being kicked out of all schools except some that are in Kansas, with the allowance of other religious books that don't uphold Christianity, proves that instead of tolerant you are intolerant. you ridicule our beliefs, my friends have been expelled because of praying in school, however private, and to top it all off, you sue over 200 pastors and churches a month for preaching what the Bible says. tolerant? you make me laugh.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Jeebus H. Christ on a pogo stick. Not another Christian with a Persecution Complex. Christians aren't persecuted for jack ****. They own a bazillion TV networks--atheists don't. THey make up 87% of the population--Atheists don't. Christians dominate large blocks of politics--atheists don't. Atheists don't even dominate all of science. Many are christians (scientists).

So cut the bullshit soapbox.

i have seen little "tolerance" from the atheistic community. in fact, the Bible being kicked out of all schools except some that are in Kansas

The bible doesn't belong in schools. It belongs at home and in church. English classes frequently use bibles for literary interpretation.

, with the allowance of other religious books that don't uphold Christianity, proves that instead of tolerant you are intolerant.

Bullshat. What other religious book are allowed whereas the Bible isn't? Please, enlighten me with your profound experience with persecution.

you ridicule our beliefs

If you don't want to be ridiculed, don't spout off stupid things about dead people rising and rain filling the earth in 40 days. People think you are joking and then they realize you aren't...

my friends have been expelled because of praying in school, however private

That's such anecdotatal bulldoogey. I would like some evidence of that that your friend was expelled for praying in private, not affecting anyone else. Many schools have afterschool bible study groups, so it's hard to believe your friend was banned. Your silly friend was probably expelled for doing it in class, and he rightly should have been, had he disturbed pepole, if he were really expelled it all.

, and to top it all off, you sue over 200 pastors and churches a month for preaching what the Bible says. tolerant? you make me laugh.

Prove this againt. Unsubstan



tiated point. No evidence, you make me laugh.

 

[George_Washington]

Good for you. There were many doctors who disagreed, and there was a Scan of her brain quite prevelant circulated. Her brain was liquified. Your docs are probably quacks (actually, some of them were quacks and were on quackwatch)

If there were actually doctors who disagreed with her vegetable state, then that is all the more reason why she should have been kept alive.

 

[George_Washington]

Jeebus H. Christ on a pogo stick. Not another Christian with a Persecution Complex. Christians aren't persecuted for jack ****. They own a bazillion TV networks--atheists don't. THey make up 87% of the population--Atheists don't. Christians dominate large blocks of politics--atheists don't. Atheists don't even dominate all of science. Many are christians (scientists).

Christians have been persecuted in the past by psycho, blood thirsty, crazy, murderous, viscious, A T H E I S T S like Stalin and now the atheist government of China.

Christians in America are descriminated against by saps like you that don't have any tolerance for Chistianity. And other saps like George "I was kicked out of everything because I'm a complete screw up" Carlin.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Christians have been persecuted in the past by psycho, blood thirsty, crazy, murderous, viscious, A T H E I S T S like Stalin and now the atheist government of China.

Christians in America are descriminated against by saps like you that don't have any tolerance for Chistianity. And other saps like George "I was kicked out of everything because I'm a complete screw up" Carlin.

Christians haven't been persecuted for hundreds of years, however...christians daily persecute everyone else.

CHristians in American aren't discriminated by anyone; they dominate the god-damned country in almost everything they touch. They ruin everything.
IF we let the wacko-christians have their way our education system would be completely destroyed, science would collapse, and we would living in caves eating stewed acorns and chickweed dancing around a fire praying to the god of umbodagoogoo.

 

[Kelzie]

Christians have been persecuted in the past by psycho, blood thirsty, crazy, murderous, viscious, A T H E I S T S like Stalin and now the atheist government of China.

Christians in America are descriminated against by saps like you that don't have any tolerance for Chistianity. And other saps like George "I was kicked out of everything because I'm a complete screw up" Carlin.

Christians are the ones trying to push their religion on others. You don't see a huge mass of Islams trying to get the Koran in the court rooms do you?

And for all the persecutions you claim Christians have gone through recently, they're still the largest religion in the world. Oh, the poor, poor Christians. :lol:

 

[Donkey1499]

CHINA: Executed for Distributing Bibles
Brought to you by The Voice of the Martyrs
Source: NewsMax.com

When 34-year old Jiang Zongxiu went to her neighboring market last June in Guizhou Province, China. Along with her mother-in-law, Jiang went through the marketplace, taking opportunities to hand out Bibles and Christian literature and telling people about Jesus. Only this day they had an encounter with the Chinese police.

The two Christian women were handcuffed together and brought to the police station. They were interrogated throughout the evening of the 17th. The next morning they were sentenced by the Public Security Bureau (PSB) to 15 days incarceration for "suspected spreading of rumor and disturbing the social order."

Jiang and her mother-in-law knew the risk of spreading Christian literature in communist China. Both had been active in their church for more than 10 years and dared to go forth. Even when they were arrested, interrogated and sentenced to serve 15 days, they were willing to accept the consequences of their actions - all from a government that claims to have "freedom of religion."

But it was not enough for the PSB to arrest and beat these two Christian women for the crime of passing our Christian literature. In the afternoon of June 18th, Mrs. Jiang Zongziu was pronounced dead by the PSB office of Tongzi County. They claimed she died of "natural causes." The fact is she was beaten to death.

The Voice of the Martyrs has received video testimony from the surviving family, photos of Jiang body showing her bruised body, and a copy of the actual arrest document. All of this had to be smuggled out of China as the authorities continue to attempt to hide their systematic persecution of Christians. An international campaign is now under way on behalf of the surviving family.

Much of the world would like you to believe Christians are no longer persecuted. Sister Jiang's family would disagree. Now you can stay informed of what is really happening to your Christian brothers and sisters in countries like China and even discover practical ways to help, with a FREE subscription to The Voice of the Martyrs monthly newsletter. Don't turn your back on today's persecuted church. Subscribe today.


This is the latest case of persecution against Christians in OTHER countries. Christians weren't ever persecuted in the US, but like what the other two said, the US is dominated by christians of all denominations. The last time I remember Christians getting persecuted was in Ancient Rome when they were thrown into the gladitorial arenas. And yes, the FAR-RIGHT Christians do persecute others (ex: Hitler, KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc.) I try not to make fun of other religions, though sometimes I admit that I do. Remember the 1st Amendment! Freedom of Religion, and SEPARATION of church and state.

 

[Kelzie]

This is the latest case of persecution against Christians in OTHER countries. Christians weren't ever persecuted in the US, but like what the other two said, the US is dominated by christians of all denominations. The last time I remember Christians getting persecuted was in Ancient Rome when they were thrown into the gladitorial arenas. And yes, the FAR-RIGHT Christians do persecute others (ex: Hitler, KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc.) I try not to make fun of other religions, though sometimes I admit that I do. Remember the 1st Amendment! Freedom of Religion, and SEPARATION of church and state.

China does a lot of horrible stuff. It's hardly an example of religious persecution. It's an example of an authoritarian government. They do it to a lot of religious groups.

 

[Donkey1499]

China does a lot of horrible stuff. It's hardly an example of religious persecution. It's an example of an authoritarian government. They do it to a lot of religious groups.

Fair enough. But Christians were persecuted in the past; as were Jews and Muslims.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

As were witches, atheists, and pagans by Christians. What's your point?

 

[dthmstr254]

CHINA: Executed for Distributing Bibles
Brought to you by The Voice of the Martyrs
Source: NewsMax.com

When 34-year old Jiang Zongxiu went to her neighboring market last June in Guizhou Province, China. Along with her mother-in-law, Jiang went through the marketplace, taking opportunities to hand out Bibles and Christian literature and telling people about Jesus. Only this day they had an encounter with the Chinese police.

The two Christian women were handcuffed together and brought to the police station. They were interrogated throughout the evening of the 17th. The next morning they were sentenced by the Public Security Bureau (PSB) to 15 days incarceration for "suspected spreading of rumor and disturbing the social order."

Jiang and her mother-in-law knew the risk of spreading Christian literature in communist China. Both had been active in their church for more than 10 years and dared to go forth. Even when they were arrested, interrogated and sentenced to serve 15 days, they were willing to accept the consequences of their actions - all from a government that claims to have "freedom of religion."

But it was not enough for the PSB to arrest and beat these two Christian women for the crime of passing our Christian literature. In the afternoon of June 18th, Mrs. Jiang Zongziu was pronounced dead by the PSB office of Tongzi County. They claimed she died of "natural causes." The fact is she was beaten to death.

The Voice of the Martyrs has received video testimony from the surviving family, photos of Jiang body showing her bruised body, and a copy of the actual arrest document. All of this had to be smuggled out of China as the authorities continue to attempt to hide their systematic persecution of Christians. An international campaign is now under way on behalf of the surviving family.

Much of the world would like you to believe Christians are no longer persecuted. Sister Jiang's family would disagree. Now you can stay informed of what is really happening to your Christian brothers and sisters in countries like China and even discover practical ways to help, with a FREE subscription to The Voice of the Martyrs monthly newsletter. Don't turn your back on today's persecuted church. Subscribe today.


This is the latest case of persecution against Christians in OTHER countries. Christians weren't ever persecuted in the US, but like what the other two said, the US is dominated by christians of all denominations. The last time I remember Christians getting persecuted was in Ancient Rome when they were thrown into the gladitorial arenas. And yes, the FAR-RIGHT Christians do persecute others (ex: Hitler, KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc.) I try not to make fun of other religions, though sometimes I admit that I do. Remember the 1st Amendment! Freedom of Religion, and SEPARATION of church and state.

RIIIIIIIGHT

in 1967, a preacher called me and said, "Dr. Gibbs, i never thought i would see it, but i see the papers, and it looks like I have been sued for the faith."
I said, "this is America, I will tell you, 'you cannot be sued for the faith in America'"
he replied, "well, could you come down and take a look at these papers?"
i say, "okay"
after i go down, i look at the papers and after 5 minutes of analyzing them i said, "well, looks to me as if you have been sued for the faith."
"I told you that 45 minutes ago!"
that was back in 1967. i got home and told my wife, "honey, i never thought i would see this in my life, but i looked at the papers and it looks like a pastor has been sued for the faith."
she said, "i knew someday that God would answer my prayers."
now, how many of you men have talked to your wife or girlfriend or just some girl who you have befriended, and she says something that just completely confuses you? this is one of those points in time.
i said, "honey, what do you mean?"
"i have been praying that God would give you a ministry, and now he has."
"but i didnt think God provided ministries for lawyers, it is my belief that He just barely puts up with them."
"well here is your ministry: you are going to help this man, and you are going to do it for free."
now, to a young lawyer, the words "help" and "free" almost never occur in the same sentence, much less happen together. however, after a lot of being unable to sit down without my dear wife nagging me, i finally gave in and took over the preacher's case for free. this was the first case that would be handled by the Christian Law Association. as of year 2004 we have handled over 80000 cases that dealt with preachers and churches being sued for preaching the Bible within the confines of their church.

for some reason this true story is incohesive with the "facts" you have put up. i would like to note that i am a supporter of VOM (Voice Of the Martyrs) and the person who heads the VOM is not happy with the way you have twisted articles that he has posted on his site to suit your own good. here is another fact, America is now the world's biggest missionary field, and down from top dog in sending missionaries to other countries to third place.

 

[dthmstr254]

As were witches, atheists, and pagans by Christians. What's your point?

they were persecuted by people i would be unlikely to call Christians. if they were they were highly guilty of the sin of hypocrisy, because the Bible teaches to love your enemy and to "prepare a table for your enemy, lest he hunger"

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

they were persecuted by people i would be unlikely to call Christians. if they were they were highly guilty of the sin of hypocrisy, because the Bible teaches to love your enemy and to "prepare a table for your enemy, lest he hunger"

This post is a No True Scotsman Fallacy. Do you understand what that means?

The Bible also teaches you to stone people who are against you, kill infidels, and muder people if God gives you persmission.